World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc. Beyblade Discussion Beyblade Customizations

To Rethink Stamina

Oct. 28, 2011  7:27 AM
 
This is very interesting, although I'm not going to approve nor disprove this theory quite yet without adequate battle tests.

I had a personal belief a while back that a good stamina combo (MW + CW) should be around certain weights. But as the meta evolves, it becomes more difficult to validate the theory with results, since the requirements change to adapt too. It has been scrapped since then.

I'm looking forward to some discussions and data to back it up. Solo spins are great, but battle results are much more exponentially important.
Oct. 28, 2011  7:41 AM
 
I think that certain CWs work better on certain heights........ like cancer for 105 and down, Bull for 105-125 Kerbecs for 230 and TH170 and Aquario for 130-145 care to test anyone?
Oct. 28, 2011  8:06 AM
 
What I personally don't think will work is the light portion of the theory. The fact is that the MW is already so light you have to make up for it with MF-Hs and aquarios or face getting knocked out.
Oct. 28, 2011  12:23 PM
 
(Oct. 28, 2011  3:20 AM)RowDog Wrote: Granted your results are interesting but I'm not overly impressed until I see a significant difference when we test this theory in battle. Solo spin times can be completely irrelevant in a battle situation.

I want to know if in a battle situation this makes the difference between and losing or if it makes a difference between outspinning your opponent by 1sec or 10sec.

If you could please do some battle tests on this theory it would be appreciated using combos which fit you portion scheme and those who don't.
MF-L Burn Cancer 145WD and MF-L Burn Bull 145WD Spin Time Comparison:
Cancer: 3:27min Average
Bull: 2:20min Average
Dude, that's a minute difference I will be the difference in battle.

Oct. 28, 2011  2:23 PM
 
I honestly find that completely ludicrous..
Oct. 28, 2011  3:05 PM
 
I would like to take a minute to address the nature of the testing in this thread along with the oh-so-popular notion that solo-spin tests don't mean anything.

First of all, we can all agree I think that battle testing is required to show what results might be in battles. It is one of those self-referential statements that sort of defines the word truism. It is important to note though, that this thread is not about battles, it is about a deeper analysis of what exactly goes into giving a beyblade (as a systemic whole) the attributes of "stamina" - which clearly includes how long a beyblade can spin.

In any rigorous analysis it is critically important to isolate the variable you want to measure and remove all other sources of variation. This means switching 1 part at a time instead of switching multiple parts, and it certainly means that you must not introduce another beyblade into the system while you are testing. Again, what is being measured here are the inputs and relationships between parts that makes a beyblade spin longer. Nothing more, nothing less.

That being said, once a whole-bey systemic theory of the components of longer spin time has been established (and I don't think it has been established yet), at that point you can take the theory and begin to apply its principles to battle testing. Some things will undoubtedly work better in practical application than others. For example, I suspect that clear wheel choice will align more closely in practice than track selection does. This doesn't change or invalidate the theory, but rather adds a layer of guidelines for application.

Each of us has been using certain parts over others because we have a feeling or an intuition that that they might work better in practice, and then we have tested a certain limited set of match-ups to see if it actually works. But at the end of the day, our standard practice of testing different parts within different combos is more akin to alchemy than chemistry.

We could really use an underlying theory (or theories) of stamina that is accessible to everyone who hasn't take integral calculus and university-level physics, and I for one would love to have the ability to make better decisions about how different layers of the beyblade can work together. The journey to that destination begins with solo spin times, which makes them quite meaningful indeed.
Oct. 28, 2011  5:06 PM
 
well put... really could not agree more. How does one make something that takes an understanding of university level physics to fully grasp, available to everyone?? I do rather enjoy the level of analysis that is going on here..
Oct. 28, 2011  7:17 PM
 
that´s all right waht´s othello said, these some 0.5 g are uninteresting, the 1 mionute more that makes bull cancer is really importent because you will have in battles more spinning time and the defense wouldn´t be
impair of the wheel by only 0.5 g
Oct. 28, 2011  8:56 PM
 
(Oct. 28, 2011  2:23 PM)Dan Wrote: I honestly find that completely ludicrous..
Dan, you find everything ludicrous that you don't like. Put some of your time in the subject to study the subject. First of all its a theory, so give it a chance. Second of all, what is your reasoning?
I mean, we all, know that MF Meteo L Drago CH120XF doesn't beat MF-H Basalt Kerbecs BD145CS, while you still think that it does...

Oct. 28, 2011  9:07 PM
 
As much as I appreciate your sympathy, I cannot believe has a 0.3g difference increased the spin time of any bey by 20 seconds never mind a minute.. It isn't that I don't like this idea, I do, and in fact use Cancer and not Bull, but those tests do not seem logically possible.

Insult me when you've actually produced something of actual importance..
Oct. 28, 2011  9:14 PM
 
(Oct. 28, 2011  9:07 PM)Dan Wrote: As much as I appreciate your sympathy, I cannot believe has a 0.3g difference increased the spin time of any bey by 20 seconds never mind a minute.. It isn't that I don't like this idea, I do, and in fact use Cancer and not Bull, but those tests do not seem logically possible.

Insult me when you've actually produced something of actual importance..
Ha, man your funny.
Well, you obviously need to further explain your posts. Ya, I have, any discovery can be actual importance. MF-H Libra 85D was a great discovery.


Oct. 28, 2011  9:15 PM
 
Has anyone done actual battles with this? I'm not saying that solo-spin tests aren't useful. It's just that there are not going to be any solo spin contests at tournaments or anything like that.
Oct. 28, 2011  9:19 PM
 
(Oct. 28, 2011  8:56 PM)othellog Wrote: I mean, we all, know that MF Meteo L Drago CH120XF doesn't beat MF-H Basalt Kerbecs BD145CS, while you still think that it does...
Well I can beat it with MM, so I guess "we" all know that it doesn't, is not accurate...

Though I find your theory intriguing, have you decided what your 'ideal' ratio is yet? I do not believe it to be equal weight among the 3 sections, perhaps increasingly heavier as you go outward >>>> would account for MF-F and AD145 being so great for stamina as they keep the center portion lightweight and help distribute the weight outward
Oct. 28, 2011  9:23 PM
 
(Oct. 28, 2011  9:19 PM)gibsonmac Wrote:
(Oct. 28, 2011  8:56 PM)othellog Wrote: I mean, we all, know that MF Meteo L Drago CH120XF doesn't beat MF-H Basalt Kerbecs BD145CS, while you still think that it does...
Well I can beat it with MM, so I guess "we" all know that it doesn't, is not accurate...

Though I find your theory intriguing, have you decided what your 'ideal' ratio is yet? I do not believe it to be equal weight among the 3 sections, perhaps increasingly heavier as you go outward >>>> would account for MF-F and AD145 being so great for stamina as they keep the center portion lightweight and help distribute the weight outward
Ya, I'm starting to agree with that too. But, I think that I the theory changes when your add MF-H to the equation.

Oct. 28, 2011  9:25 PM
 
It was absolutely ground-breaking, yeah.
I'm certain MF Lightning LDrago BD145RF was real enough. It is perfectly fine if you have trouble replicating results, but that is your problem, not mine.
Oct. 28, 2011  9:28 PM
 
(Oct. 28, 2011  9:25 PM)Dan Wrote: It was absolutely ground-breaking, yeah.
I'm certain MF Lightning LDrago BD145RF was real enough. It is perfectly fine if you have trouble replicating results, but that is your problem, not mine.
Problem Solved. Ya, that combo was, and I appreciate that you put the time in to it. Though I sometimes prefer CS on that combo.

(Oct. 28, 2011  9:19 PM)gibsonmac Wrote:
(Oct. 28, 2011  8:56 PM)othellog Wrote: I mean, we all, know that MF Meteo L Drago CH120XF doesn't beat MF-H Basalt Kerbecs BD145CS, while you still think that it does...
Well I can beat it with MM, so I guess "we" all know that it doesn't, is not accurate...

Though I find your theory intriguing, have you decided what your 'ideal' ratio is yet? I do not believe it to be equal weight among the 3 sections, perhaps increasingly heavier as you go outward >>>> would account for MF-F and AD145 being so great for stamina as they keep the center portion lightweight and help distribute the weight outward
I'm getting worse spin times with AD145 btw. I really think that 145 is the ultimate stamina track, for solo spin times.(Except in the case of Hell Kerbecs.)

Oct. 28, 2011  10:09 PM
 
Other tests have shown different results than this, hence the use of Bull. I also find a difference of an entire minute more than a little hard to believe.

Also extremely relevant here: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Clear-Wh...-test-them
I think this may play a large part here.

I feel the difference in these results are the result of subconscious or accidental differences in launch time. I find it extremely hard to believe that a difference that large can be made by swapping Bull to Cancer. (Note, I'm certainly not accusing you of faking results or any other deceit, it's generally all subconscious/beyond your control).

Furthermore, these are solo spin tests, not Stamina tests. Who knows, Bull could have a basalt-like effect or something in 1v1 stamina (I doubt it, but hey).

As for Basalt Kerbecs, Hero and I found that the opposite orientation to the one shown in my CW thread seemed to give better solo spin time on TH170WF (though it was only a few trials), yet the opposite way worked far far better in battle. Basalt, due to it's imbalanced form, reacts somewhat unpredictably to different CW's, methinks.

As for basalt/hell, basalt is, as I said, affected differently by different CW's, in a way that isn't very predictable. Hell works better with Kerbecs due to both having good symmetry with each other. So, even if your theory is correct, you would need to use one of the newer, heavier stamina wheels to make any determination there, and even then, weight may not be the deciding factor (balance/distribution, aerodynamics with the wheel, who knows).
Oct. 28, 2011  10:11 PM
 
(Oct. 28, 2011  5:13 AM)Caststarman Wrote:
(Oct. 28, 2011  3:20 AM)RowDog Wrote: Granted your results are interesting but I'm not overly impressed until I see a significant difference when we test this theory in battle. Solo spin times can be completely irrelevant in a battle situation.

I want to know if in a battle situation this makes the difference between and losing or if it makes a difference between outspinning your opponent by 1sec or 10sec.

If you could please do some battle tests on this theory it would be appreciated using combos which fit you portion scheme and those who don't.

Well, then what I tested were completely irrelevent in battle. I used a meager low tier combo and tested times. In both tests the variable lost but i tracked spin time. The combos were evil bull 145 s and evil gemios 145 s. The latter did better on solospins tested 8 times. I forgot to write the times though. Sorry. After Kai v's post, i tested the theory in battle against an earth bull 145 d, on both beys, the bull did significantly better than gemios. Hope this helped.

(Oct. 28, 2011  9:15 PM)Mr. N Wrote: Has anyone done actual battles with this? I'm not saying that solo-spin tests aren't useful. It's just that there are not going to be any solo spin contests at tournaments or anything like that.

Look at this test I made and you will see differences. I think that the tests I made might be sort of irrevelnt because gemios wasn't to much better in wieght distribution then bull and I threw random parts together. Much better testing then this is needed.
Oct. 28, 2011  10:28 PM
 
What stadium did you use? Also, could you swap the clear wheels and nothing else since different molds, wear etc. could affect the results.
Oct. 28, 2011  10:49 PM
 
(Oct. 28, 2011  10:09 PM)th!nk Wrote: Other tests have shown different results than this, hence the use of Bull. I also find a difference of an entire minute more than a little hard to believe.

Also extremely relevant here: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Clear-Wh...-test-them
I think this may play a large part here.

I feel the difference in these results are the result of subconscious or accidental differences in launch time. I find it extremely hard to believe that a difference that large can be made by swapping Bull to Cancer. (Note, I'm certainly not accusing you of faking results or any other deceit, it's generally all subconscious/beyond your control).

Furthermore, these are solo spin tests, not Stamina tests. Who knows, Bull could have a basalt-like effect or something in 1v1 stamina (I doubt it, but hey).

As for Basalt Kerbecs, Hero and I found that the opposite orientation to the one shown in my CW thread seemed to give better solo spin time on TH170WF (though it was only a few trials), yet the opposite way worked far far better in battle. Basalt, due to it's imbalanced form, reacts somewhat unpredictably to different CW's, methinks.

As for basalt/hell, basalt is, as I said, affected differently by different CW's, in a way that isn't very predictable. Hell works better with Kerbecs due to both having good symmetry with each other. So, even if your theory is correct, you would need to use one of the newer, heavier stamina wheels to make any determination there, and even then, weight may not be the deciding factor (balance/distribution, aerodynamics with the wheel, who knows).
Ya, I really think that clear wheels need to be heavy to counter act the unbalance of basalt already. But, I agree, these are solo-spin time tests, though they are significant, I should do more 1 on 1 testing. I don't have a lot of the newer wheels though, I'll probably be getting more soon.
Well, I was amazed of my finding too.
BB-10 Attack Stadium
Oct. 29, 2011  4:39 AM
 
maybe if you redo the solo spin tests again, but avg them out of 10 tests, and they still support your theory, you would have a better idea of what is going on, also I do not believe its time to apply the theory to battle yet... As by doing solo spin tests, you remove roughly half (or more) of the uncontrollable variables that Yamislayer references that make it impossible to see a viable difference... that being said, if one were ever going to find the 'ultimate' clear wheel/track to use with a certain MW, the best place to do so is through measuring solo spin times... like I said, take the tests again, but do 10+ per combo and see if there is a difference >>>> if there is a notable bonus in a certain combination then apply it to battles.

Doing so any earlier would make it impossible to determine if you are getting actual benefits from different CW's, tracks, Faces etc, because of all of the added variables Yamislayer lists that are going on in a battle... you have the right idea with solo spin times, perfect place to find results, as its as close to a controlled environment as you can get with beyblade


Also, check out Akirasdaddy's power launcher , with the set RPM speeds, it would eliminate the variance of the individual launch, maybe we could ask him to do a few tests??

Oct. 29, 2011  4:45 AM
 
(Oct. 28, 2011  10:09 PM)th!nk Wrote: As for Basalt Kerbecs, Hero and I found that the opposite orientation to the one shown in my CW thread seemed to give better solo spin time on TH170WF (though it was only a few trials), yet the opposite way worked far far better in battle. Basalt, due to it's imbalanced form, reacts somewhat unpredictably to different CW's, methinks.

gibsonmac, did you read this? I've already tested this. Although one orientation of Kerbecs fitted on Basalt gave more solo spin time it was less effective. I've tested against several combos and found that the side that offered more solo spin lost to them, however, when I re-positioned it to the opposite orientation (the one th!nk mentioned as superior) it gave our combo a few extra spins to OS those exact same combos. I feel that solo spin is not a great indicator of superior stamina.
Oct. 29, 2011  4:55 AM
 
(Oct. 29, 2011  4:45 AM)Hero Wrote: gibsonmac, did you read this? I've already tested this. Although one orientation of Kerbecs fitted on Basalt gave more solo spin time it was less effective. I've tested against several combos and found that the side that offered more solo spin lost to them, however, when I re-positioned it to the opposite orientation (the one th!nk mentioned as superior) it gave our combo a few extra spins to OS those exact same combos. I feel that solo spin is not a great indicator of superior stamina.

Solo-spin times are very situational.

But of course, this always needs to be taken into consideration (As has been mentioned).



There's only so much a Clear Wheel can do, and a combo also needs to be looked at as a whole, not the individual parts it's made up of.
Oct. 29, 2011  5:01 AM
 
(Oct. 29, 2011  4:45 AM)Hero Wrote:
(Oct. 28, 2011  10:09 PM)th!nk Wrote: As for Basalt Kerbecs, Hero and I found that the opposite orientation to the one shown in my CW thread seemed to give better solo spin time on TH170WF (though it was only a few trials), yet the opposite way worked far far better in battle. Basalt, due to it's imbalanced form, reacts somewhat unpredictably to different CW's, methinks.

gibsonmac, did you read this? I've already tested this. Although one orientation of Kerbecs fitted on Basalt gave more solo spin time it was less effective. I've tested against several combos and found that the side that offered more solo spin lost to them, however, when I re-positioned it to the opposite orientation (the one th!nk mentioned as superior) it gave our combo a few extra spins to OS those exact same combos. I feel that solo spin is not a great indicator of superior stamina.

I'm just saying, from a theoretical standpoint, solo spin would be THE vehicle to test this particular theory, least amount of variables, concrete numbers that can be measured against one another, etc... THEN you do practical applications, as you did... Just because one combo didn't work out that the solo spin winner wasn't as viable, doesn't mean it's true in all circumstances, it may have had more to do with basalt and the way that particular MW works.
Oct. 29, 2011  5:02 AM
 
(Oct. 28, 2011  10:28 PM)Mr. N Wrote: What stadium did you use? Also, could you swap the clear wheels and nothing else since different molds, wear etc. could affect the results.

Its all hasbro, and the travel stadium. I used The same parts but the e ring.
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