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To Rethink Stamina

Oct. 28, 2011  12:27 AM
 
To Rethink Stamina


This thread covers a newly developed stamina theory. I call it The Stamina Portion Theory. It describes the 3 main portions of the bey(based on my observations).
The Different Portions of the Bey: (Click to View)

How The Portion Theory Affects the Overall Stamina of a Beybalde:
Well, each portion of the bey can’t be to far apart in weight. This gets into othellog’s scale, but I’ll get into that later.
Here is a Model of Storm Pegasus, but it shows the different portions.

[Image: hwsd.png]


Note: As you can see, the metal wheel portion only applies to the outside of the metal wheel, again.

Now, this model shows the different types of portions. Each portion has to balanced based on how heavy the wheel is. For example, Hell is a pretty heavy wheel. So it needs a heavy clear wheel to counteract that. To prove this part of the theory here is some testing:
MF-L Burn Cancer 145WD and MF-L Burn Bull 145WD Spin Time Comparison:
Cancer: 3:27min Average
Bull: 2:20min Average
According to what most people think, Bull has better weight distribution so it should have a better spin time than cancer, but that is not the case. If you look at it this way, there is too much weight in the Clear Portion compared to the Metal Wheel Portion. This is the relation in Othellog’s scale.

Othellog’s Scale: (Click to View)

Now, according to my tests, here are some of the best matches according to my scale:
(Averages)
-MF-L Burn Cancer 145WD: Solo Spin time of 3:27
-Hell Kerbecs BD145WD: Solo Spin time of 3:20
-Basalt Kerbecs 145WD: Solo Spin time of 2:10
-MF-L Earth Cancer 145D: Solo Spin time of 2:31
Note: the rest of my solo spin time testing is at the end of the thread.

All of the Testing: (Click to View)
Oct. 28, 2011  12:30 AM
 
This is interesting but does this work in actual battles?
Oct. 28, 2011  12:35 AM
 
Well, this basically describes spin time, but i'm going to do battle testing soon. I also add more to Othellog's scale. For example:
If you replace 145 with GB145, then you sacrifice stamina. GB145 adds weight to the Clear Wheel Portion, which makes the whole bey unbalanced. This applies to when you have a Light bey on Othellog's scale. But, GB145 adds more defensive capabilities.
Oct. 28, 2011  12:36 AM
 
This is really cool Smile

So, you want to match a Clear Wheel that fits into the "Light" category with a Metal Wheel that fits into the "Light" category, for example? Or another combination of light/heavy is better?

Aside from the weight and portions, I have what I think is a pretty effective way of testing a Clear Wheel's balance. I do [Clear Wheel] 85S/BS. No Metal Wheel. Exact same part each time, only the clear wheel changes. It actually is surprising that some clear wheels cause a wavy type of motion. The ones with better balance also usually have the better spin times, but that could also be because of the weight, so it's mostly important to look at the way it spins.
Oct. 28, 2011  12:46 AM
 
I love this idea!

So much of our testing focuses on the metal wheel and tip, and what attention we do pay to spin tracks is mainly related to height. There has been a new movement that I have seen around a deeper analysis of parts (230 vs TH170, H145, etc.) and this work on whole-bey systemic stamina fits into the deeper analysis trend very well.

Nice work man, and I look forward to digging into this concept more in the next couple of weeks.
Oct. 28, 2011  12:46 AM
 
(Oct. 28, 2011  12:36 AM)Shabalabadoo Wrote: This is really cool Smile

So, you want to match a Clear Wheel that fits into the "Light" category with a Metal Wheel that fits into the "Light" category, for example? Or another combination of light/heavy is better?

Aside from the weight and portions, I have what I think is a pretty effective way of testing a Clear Wheel's balance. I do [Clear Wheel] 85S/BS. No Metal Wheel. Exact same part each time, only the clear wheel changes. It actually is surprising that some clear wheels cause a wavy type of motion. The ones with better balance also usually have the better spin times, but that could also be because of the weight, so it's mostly important to look at the way it spins.
Well, for Burn and Earth I don't think that will work. As:
MF-L Burn Cancer 145WD and MF-L Burn Bull 145WD Spin Time Comparison:
Cancer: 3:27min Average
Bull: 2:20min Average
But that is just Bull, I'll have to try Kerbecs in this situation. But, Scythe is when I think this theory is going to get interesting. But, I'm really looking forward to getting my Virgo.
Thanks Dude, It took me a long time to put this together.

(Oct. 28, 2011  12:46 AM)Arupaeo Wrote: I love this idea!

So much of our testing focuses on the metal wheel and tip, and what attention we do pay to spin tracks is mainly related to height. There has been a new movement that I have seen around a deeper analysis of parts (230 vs TH170, H145, etc.) and this work on whole-bey systemic stamina fits into the deeper analysis trend very well.

Nice work man, and I look forward to digging into this concept more in the next couple of weeks.
I'll have to do testing on 230 and TH170 too, it sounds pretty interesting...
On 230 I'll have to focus on Scythe, Basalt and Hell more.
Man, this thread is almost 650 words...

Oct. 28, 2011  12:52 AM
 
I'll do solo's with Phantom, nothing counter-intuitive would be needed on Phantom, so Orion would fit well according to this "scale".
Oct. 28, 2011  12:54 AM
 
(Oct. 28, 2011  12:52 AM)BeybladeStation Wrote: I'll do solo's with Phantom, nothing counter-intuitive would be needed on Phantom, so Orion would fit well according to this "scale".
Lol dude do you not believe me! I would really appreciate that. But, does anyone know the weight of Phantom, then you could make a good clear wheel choice.

Oct. 28, 2011  1:25 AM
 
So our we gonna test this new theory in battle? I would love to help with the testing.
Oct. 28, 2011  1:28 AM
 
(Oct. 28, 2011  12:54 AM)othellog Wrote:
(Oct. 28, 2011  12:52 AM)BeybladeStation Wrote: I'll do solo's with Phantom, nothing counter-intuitive would be needed on Phantom, so Orion would fit well according to this "scale".
Lol dude do you not believe me! I would really appreciate that. But, does anyone know the weight of Phantom, then you could make a good clear wheel choice.

Phantom, as a whole, weighs 44.50 grams.
Oct. 28, 2011  1:30 AM
 
(Oct. 28, 2011  1:28 AM)Hazel Wrote:
(Oct. 28, 2011  12:54 AM)othellog Wrote:
(Oct. 28, 2011  12:52 AM)BeybladeStation Wrote: I'll do solo's with Phantom, nothing counter-intuitive would be needed on Phantom, so Orion would fit well according to this "scale".
Lol dude do you not believe me! I would really appreciate that. But, does anyone know the weight of Phantom, then you could make a good clear wheel choice.

Phantom, as a whole, weighs 44.50 grams.
Yo man thanks. So it should be pared with a Heavier Clear wheel, according to my testing.

Oct. 28, 2011  1:31 AM
 
This is a great theory othellog but could you test more of the top tier combo as this will give us a better indication of your theories capabilities and thus contribute more to the beyblade world, but your theory is great and once developed and tested further will be a great contribution to the community.
Oct. 28, 2011  1:45 AM
 
All tests done in the past that this theory could want to 'counter' were done with actual Stamina battles. Furthermore, even Yamislayer believes that Clear Wheels make only a negligible difference sometimes. Just try to do more than only three tests even if you are just going to do solo spin times.

So a lighter Metal Wheel needs a lighter Clear Wheel ? Will that not just perform worse than if it had a slightly heavier Metal Wheel ?
Oct. 28, 2011  2:32 AM
 
(Oct. 28, 2011  1:45 AM)Kai-V Wrote: All tests done in the past that this theory could want to 'counter' were done with actual Stamina battles. Furthermore, even Yamislayer believes that Clear Wheels make only a negligible difference sometimes. Just try to do more than only three tests even if you are just going to do solo spin times.

So a lighter Metal Wheel needs a lighter Clear Wheel ? Will that not just perform worse than if it had a slightly heavier Metal Wheel ?
Well, I've already said I'm going to do tests like that....
They make a difference based on the weight difference.
Basically, a bey should reach a unique balance on all three portions. I just did some more solo spin time tests(good advise though Kai-V, I'll do more than 3 tests from now on.)
MF-H Basalt Kerbecs 230WD: 1:50min
MF-H Basalt Cancer 230WD: 1:48min
MF-H Basalt Bull 230WD: 2:08min
Before I state this, it mostly applies to beys with MF-H.
If the beyblade has a heavy middle portion, the metal wheel portion has to be heavy too. I've found that a medium weighted wheel fits the best in this situation.



Oct. 28, 2011  2:34 AM
 
What if you try Stamina without a Metal Face on it ?
Oct. 28, 2011  2:37 AM
 
(Oct. 28, 2011  2:34 AM)Kai-V Wrote: What if you try Stamina without a Metal Face on it ?
That's what I've been doing. You mean on 230 right.
I was trying to prove the theory more in the meta-game, so I used a top-tier combo. Ok Kai-V, you sure have a lot of questions.

Oct. 28, 2011  2:40 AM
 
I am just not sure what physics theory this could rely on. If a Metal Wheel is light, then combining it with a light Clear Wheel will surely just make it perform worse than if it at least had a heavier Clear Wheel.
Oct. 28, 2011  2:46 AM
 
What is believing going to help?

I understand the weight balance but I wonder for even Basalt on certain Clear Wheels.
Oct. 28, 2011  2:59 AM
 
(Oct. 28, 2011  2:40 AM)Kai-V Wrote: I am just not sure what physics theory this could rely on. If a Metal Wheel is light, then combining it with a light Clear Wheel will surely just make it perform worse than if it at least had a heavier Clear Wheel.
Then why the hell does my testing not say that? Well, it really doesn't. Weight distribution is based on weight on the outside of the beyblade. When you have a heavier clear wheel there is more weight in the inner part of the bey than on the outside (metal wheel).

(Oct. 28, 2011  2:46 AM)BeybladeStation Wrote: What is believing going to help?

I understand the weight balance but I wonder for even Basalt on certain Clear Wheels.
Ok dude, I was joking man...
Hmm, well just recreate the test results if you don't believe them.

Oct. 28, 2011  3:05 AM
 
Kai-V, I am sorry but I just did a few tests like he did and he is right. I'll post my results the moment I have time.
Oct. 28, 2011  3:20 AM
 
Granted your results are interesting but I'm not overly impressed until I see a significant difference when we test this theory in battle. Solo spin times can be completely irrelevant in a battle situation.

I want to know if in a battle situation this makes the difference between and losing or if it makes a difference between outspinning your opponent by 1sec or 10sec.

If you could please do some battle tests on this theory it would be appreciated using combos which fit you portion scheme and those who don't.
Oct. 28, 2011  3:33 AM
 
(Oct. 28, 2011  3:05 AM)Caststarman Wrote: Kai-V, I am sorry but I just did a few tests like he did and he is right. I'll post my results the moment I have time.

What tests ? Solo spin times ?
Oct. 28, 2011  3:58 AM
 
He is basically saying that there is an ideal weight distribution ratio on a bey that will make a stamina type spin longer... this IS based in physics ie. weight distribution/balance of a spinning object etc. (there is an actual term, can't recall off the top of my head)...

I had recently been working on a similar theory, though I had 2 portions(inner and outer), and it is mainly for attack types... but yeah I think Phantom tests will be very interesting, as nearly 40g of the MW is in the outermost portion, so according to his theory, optimally, the heaviest combination of face/wheel/track/tip will be needed to balance correctly... correct Othellog?? I believe it is optimal to have as much weight as possible located in the outer portion while having the innermost portion as light as possible >>> why Phantom is the stamina king, but it will be interesting to apply this theory.
Oct. 28, 2011  4:05 AM
 
Yep, agreed, nice theory othellog Grin sweet work
Oct. 28, 2011  5:13 AM
 
(Oct. 28, 2011  3:20 AM)RowDog Wrote: Granted your results are interesting but I'm not overly impressed until I see a significant difference when we test this theory in battle. Solo spin times can be completely irrelevant in a battle situation.

I want to know if in a battle situation this makes the difference between and losing or if it makes a difference between outspinning your opponent by 1sec or 10sec.

If you could please do some battle tests on this theory it would be appreciated using combos which fit you portion scheme and those who don't.

Well, then what I tested were completely irrelevent in battle. I used a meager low tier combo and tested times. In both tests the variable lost but i tracked spin time. The combos were evil bull 145 s and evil gemios 145 s. The latter did better on solospins tested 8 times. I forgot to write the times though. Sorry. After Kai v's post, i tested the theory in battle against an earth bull 145 d, and both beys, the bull did significantly better than gemios. Hope this helped.
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