I am a huge RB fan, but I would have to argue that it shouldn't be paired with BD145 on the tier list. RB is much more effective where RDF isn't a good choice, such as with low- or high- track customs. RB's high Stamina and what is IMO the best Defense out there are good, but on BD145 RB's Stamina doesn't help much, nor does its Defense, because of scraping at the end of battles. RDF doesn't scrape on BD145, as we all know, and even though CS and RSF do scrape once they have run out of Stamina, RSF has a much more aggressive movement pattern than RB, and CS has far more Stamina, and also can be aggro. RB just isn't interesting enough to be a good choice on BD145.
The Issue of BD145 Defense and the Potential of RF-based Defense
Poll: What should we do about the BD145 Defemse section of the tier-lis?
| Keep what we've got |
|
9 |
| Scrath conventional BD145 defenders and replace them with RF Defense |
|
0 |
| Keep some conventional defenders, and replace the ones we toss with RF-based Defense |
|
5 |
| Keep all the conventional defenders and add RF-based Defense as well |
|
10 |
| Trash all BD145 defense |
|
0 |
| Total: | 100% | 24 vote(s) |
@OP: Defense isn't actually in a bad place at all. You're not adjusting attack testing results for how difficult it is to launch them reliably at tournaments, or the various other issues that see attack condemned to being the least popular type most of the time - Attack winrates are nowhere near as good at tournaments as they are in testing (and I'm pretty sure I've heard that you have experienced that first-hand at least once), but because of how dependent that is on individual skill, we can't account for that in testing (in fact, this is the main reason benchmarks have been proposed and enforced - so people have something they can adjust the results by to get an estimation of how well a combo will do for them at tournaments).
Cake: RDF is fine on E230, I don't know what you (or anyone else who says this) is on about tbh. Also, RSF isn't significantly better at taking hits than CS, whereas RB is better than both (though RDF is probably the best choice for BD145 defense by a mile given the extra security against opposite-spin it gives).
Cake: RDF is fine on E230, I don't know what you (or anyone else who says this) is on about tbh. Also, RSF isn't significantly better at taking hits than CS, whereas RB is better than both (though RDF is probably the best choice for BD145 defense by a mile given the extra security against opposite-spin it gives).
![[Image: UwZsp7A.png]](https://i.imgur.com/UwZsp7A.png)
@th!nk:
I tried to give both sides of the argument involving BD145 Defense, to see people's opinions on whether or not they would use it over other types of Defense in our metagame as it is at the moment.
BD145 Defense will still usually be effective in a tournament scenario, but, it's definitely more of a risk in my opinion. I was addressing the varying win rates in the BD145 Defense category to open it up for discussion, just to see what people thought about it after seeing its win rates go slowly down over the past few months with the testing of Wyvang and Balro.
My thoughts on the subject are, except for RDF, which performs incredibly well against left-spin, most other options for BD145 Defense are vastly inferior to E230 Defense using the same Bottom.
For instance, E230RSF is flat-out better than BD145RSF IMO. It has a heck of a lot more Defense, and BD145 doesn't provide any advantage.
While I still far prefer E230 Defense, I'm personally a proponent of keeping everything BD145 (save RB possibly), but adding RF-based Defense as well. I see zero good reasons not to. If bladers still see BD145RSF as competitive, then IMO BD145RF is a no-brainer.
theblackdragon Wrote:While stationary BD145 defense can be effective in a tournament situation (where different factors can take over, IE not being able to redo a horrendous mis-launch or faulty self-KO's, adrenaline, and/or the presence of the opponent's launcher over the stadium), in my humble opinion the test results show they are quite risky compared to other options.
theblackdragon Wrote:The advantages I honestly see in using BD145 defense is that BD145RDF will usually fair well against/as a spin-equalizer(s) (thus the use of combos like MSF-H Reviser/Wyvang Dragooon BD145RDF), and some have an extraordinary ability to KO stamina types while still maintaining a viable level of defense (Wyvang Wyvang BD145RSF [balance, but serves a a decent example]). These are great things to be able to do...
I tried to give both sides of the argument involving BD145 Defense, to see people's opinions on whether or not they would use it over other types of Defense in our metagame as it is at the moment.
BD145 Defense will still usually be effective in a tournament scenario, but, it's definitely more of a risk in my opinion. I was addressing the varying win rates in the BD145 Defense category to open it up for discussion, just to see what people thought about it after seeing its win rates go slowly down over the past few months with the testing of Wyvang and Balro.
My thoughts on the subject are, except for RDF, which performs incredibly well against left-spin, most other options for BD145 Defense are vastly inferior to E230 Defense using the same Bottom.
For instance, E230RSF is flat-out better than BD145RSF IMO. It has a heck of a lot more Defense, and BD145 doesn't provide any advantage.
While I still far prefer E230 Defense, I'm personally a proponent of keeping everything BD145 (save RB possibly), but adding RF-based Defense as well. I see zero good reasons not to. If bladers still see BD145RSF as competitive, then IMO BD145RF is a no-brainer.
![[Image: 68vfxj.jpg]](https://oi57.tinypic.com/68vfxj.jpg)
theres more to defense than just Duo. how 'bout killerken^2 BD145 RF?
![[Image: 20af95v.png]](https://i61.tinypic.com/20af95v.png)
![[Image: 29c0thl.png]](https://i60.tinypic.com/29c0thl.png)
I can totally see the argument for BD145 being removed from defense in favor of E230 since E230 really does do so vastly much better against most modern Synchrom attackers (and Flash). BD145 would still be on the list in the form of specific customs such as anti-attackers/etc., but not necessarily on the defense list (except perhaps with Duo, maybe?). If Wyvang wasn't a thing I probably wouldn't be advocating this, but considering I can net 70% against MSF-H Reviser Reviser BD145RDF with MSF Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F on a bad day it does seem like it might be time for it to go.
The argument that BD145 is still good in a tournament setting where it's harder to use attack is a compelling one, but I'd make the same argument I believe TBD is making: if you were going to be trying to counter an attacker with BD145, why not just use the more consistent E230 or an anti-attacker instead?
It would be like when Basalt was taken off the defense list; it feels really weird to do since it's been such a mainstay for so long, but other parts just do its job better in the current metagame.
This is from weeks ago, but I just noticed it:
When did I say that, lol? There's nothing wrong with RF-based defense
The argument that BD145 is still good in a tournament setting where it's harder to use attack is a compelling one, but I'd make the same argument I believe TBD is making: if you were going to be trying to counter an attacker with BD145, why not just use the more consistent E230 or an anti-attacker instead?
It would be like when Basalt was taken off the defense list; it feels really weird to do since it's been such a mainstay for so long, but other parts just do its job better in the current metagame.
This is from weeks ago, but I just noticed it:
(Oct. 24, 2013 3:57 AM)Shining God MS Wrote: I'll test this against Flash, and it'll still be an awesome Win Rate. Although, it'll be tomorrow.
EDIT: Ingulit isn't really a fan of RF-based Defense btw.
When did I say that, lol? There's nothing wrong with RF-based defense
Well, except for the fact that BD145RDF Defense beats the carp out of almost anything Dragooon. XD
But honestly, I don't see much of a point in keeping BD145RB/RSF/CS. All three will do their job far better on E230.
But honestly, I don't see much of a point in keeping BD145RB/RSF/CS. All three will do their job far better on E230.