Remember, guys - it may never end up banned (I hope it does, and I'd disagree very much with the decision if it isn't, but it's not gone yet, and we should keep that in mind).

The committee has the final word. Let's not count our chickens before they're hatched.

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|Click here for the next tournament in North Carolina! |

Well, I would hope we can make a decision before "a few months", but yes, do not do anything differently than what you are already doing, for the moment ...

I'd go for two uses, in a small tournament, you could use it 3/7 times? I think two is a good number, it'd follow suit with the uses of the re-shoot clause also.

I agree it's a good idea, but we should keep it the same for every tournamnet, because then people are going to start arguing what is "small". Plus with the argument of changing the tourney limit to 7 and changing the credits earned, and things like that going on, we would also have to take this into consideration which would make a lot of things complicated. I like the concept, but if you go deep into it you find faults.

I was using it as an example, could you stop harping on whatever I say? I was saying it'd be a problem if it was at 3.
Two would be fine in my opinion, it's a good number for the re-shoot clause. And it shouldn't be more than 1/4 of your battles (in the case of 7 battles).

And I myself, nor any other tournament organizers I know, have any trouble keeping track of all numbers said before.

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Veteran, just getting back into the sway of things

I will be the devil's advocate here. I'm actually in the middle of recapitulating all of the WBO's Zero G events since the release of F230, cross-referencing them with the Winning Combinations. It is a lot of work not to mention the time it takes, but concrete statistic result is a whole lot better than trying to compile both sides of opinions and arguments.

Just a quick scoop, which might already settle the usage limitation idea:

Ever since the F230 release, there have been 74 Zero G events with a total of 3,573 matches and 1,039 participants. That number yields an average of 3.4 battles per person per event. Quite shocking right? Not the typical 7 matches per event like what you guys had in mind. There have been Double Elimination format, Swiss format, etc. What we have to do is take ALL these into account. Now, if we have an average of 3 or 4 matches per person per event, usage limitation is pretty much rendered useless. The 2 or 3 cap on F230 usage is already more than ~ 60% of the time. At this point in time, it will need a full ban or just keep it legal. This is what we need to focus on.

If my schedule stays free for these few days, a finalized data will be ready hopefully much sooner than 'few months'.

OK, as most of you know already, I've been compiling the data for Zero G events since the release of F230 (20th October 2012) and cross referenced it with the Winning Combos. The result is as followed:

75 -> 74 processed Zero G events + 1 unprocessed, but the Winning Combos have been posted
104 -> processed Standard events
28 -> processed Limited events (Since 23rd December 2013). If that number was extrapolated all the way back to 20th October 2012, it would be 85.

Before I list the Winning Combos, what bothers me is how low the frequency of the Zero G events have been, in comparison to the other two. Couple of possibilities:

- It's because of the F230 problem. Hosts are reluctant to do Zero G format.
~OR~
- Players still prefer the regular standard stadiums to Zero G stadiums.

Personally, I think it's the latter. This is of course, a very personal opinion, based on the brief time I had when I was still playing in organized events in both formats.

OFF TOPIC: Limited in Zero G stadiums would most likely have an even lower frequency.



The second major point is the the Winning Combos. Due to the varieties of the winning combinations posted, I have grouped them into their most basic characters. Ie: F230 versus B:D versus stationary SA165 versus aggressive SA165 versus stationary E230 versus aggressive E230 versus other things. My apologies if they're not where they're supposed to be, but this is just basic primitive grouping.

Unfortunately, only Winning Combinations from 42 Zero G events were posted, it's way less than it should be, but it is still majority enough to be representative.

7 Basalt/Duo F230 CF/GCF
14 (Right Spin) Synchrome F230 CF/GCF
31 (Left Spin) Synchrome F230 CF/GCF

48 Basalt/Death/Duo/Gravity/Phantom B:D
54 (Left Spin) Synchrome B:D
6 (Right Spin) Synchrome B:D

39 Death/Duo/Gravity/Sycthe SA165 BWD/EWD/MB/RDF/TB/WD/W2D
25 (Left Spin) Synchrome SA165 BWD/EWD/MB/RDF/TB/RDF/WD/W2D
12 (Right Spin) Synchrome SA165 B/BWD/EWD/MB/RDF/TB/WD/W2D

6 Basalt/Diablo A230/E230 CF/GCF/GF/SF
8 (Left Spin) Synchrome E230 /SP230/SR200 CF/GCF/GF/SF
12 (Right Spin) Synchrome E230/SP230/SR200 CF/GCF/GF/SF

18 (Left Spin) Synchrome SA165 CF/GCF/GF/RF/SF/WSF
7 (Right Spin) Synchrome SA165 CF/GCF/GF/RF/SF/WSF

4 Phantom E230 BWD/EWD/TB
4 (Left Spin) Synchrome E230/SP230/SR200 BWD/CS/MB/SB/SWD/TB/WB
16 (Right Spin) ynchrome E230/SP230/SR200 BWD/CS/MB/SB/SWD/TB/WB


3 (Left Spin) Synchrome 145/AD145/BD145/GB145/ED145/W145 CF/GF/GCF/MF
10 (Right Spin) Synchrome 145/AD145/BD145/GB145/ED145/TH170/W145 CF/GF/GCF/MF/RSF

6 Basalt/Duo/Phantom W145/160/230/A230 BWDMB/EWD/WD
1 (Left Spin) Synchrome 160/230/A230 MB/WD
4 (Right Spin) Synchrome AD145/160/230/A230 MB/WD

15 Others

With a total of 350 combinations. Now comes the further grouping and the basic math:

1. 30.86% B:D
2. 21.71% 'stationary SA165', ie: BWD/EWD, etc
3. 14.85% F230 CF/GCF
and so on..

What we do not know from that data is how often each combination was used in the event. Nonetheless, I think 14.85% is hardly qualified enough to be banned. The bloated perception of "F230 everywhere" may come from the how often it was used in the event or merely from the overly hyped up discussion throughout the forum. Events that used "No F230 house rules" are not counted in the Winning Combo statistic.

After putting the data on the table, which are the grounds for my reasoning, I would now exercise my voting privilege as a committee member to "NO" for the F230 ban.

PS: But just so we're clear, I was on the fence, yet leaning toward the ban myself before compiling the statistic. Unfortunately, the data is concrete enough evidence to sway me to the "NO" vote. Other Committee members might have a different way of perception and observation about the whole thing, and hopefully we can find a majority vote soon enough, and put a closure to this, be it yes/no.

Food for thought: If F230 CF/GCF is broken enough to obliterate other combinations it faces, why do the users of F230 CF/GCF still use other non F230 CF/GCF combinations throughout the event? 2 combos (left/right) F230 CF/GCF should have been enough to win events, no?

Yo Uwik, don't mean to be /that guy/ but just because it wasn't in winning combos, doesn't mean it wasn't heavily used. Going by your methods of pure statistics, wouldn't we need a compiled list of all combos used in a 0G tournament ever?
Also, part availability plays a role in how much it tops, whether people accept it or not. Bandid Genbull F230 TB (a confirmed box) used to be 48$, which is what I bought it for after it dropped from 55.
Some people have availability to multiple, such as Dark Mousy, I'm not calling him out but damn he has a lot of F230s. Another thing, F230 may not be prevalent in certain tournaments. Such as the ones in VA where we agree not to use it, as there have been a few tournaments excluding VA that had barred participants from using the part.

These are possible reasons for the percentage being comparatively low.

Food for thought. (My bad Uwik)

P.S. Uwik, being a very reasonable person yourself, I hope you at least consider what I've said.

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Veteran, just getting back into the sway of things

No no, don't get me wrong. I welcome discussions about the statistical method, any criticism is welcome. It is how we improve.

Although I believe I have addressed your concerns.

Yo Uwik, don't mean to be /that guy/ but just because it wasn't in winning combos, doesn't mean it wasn't heavily used. Going by your methods of pure statistics, wouldn't we need a compiled list of all combos used in a 0G tournament ever?

That would be ideal, but ....

Unfortunately, only Winning Combinations from 42 Zero G events were posted, it's way less than it should be, but it is still majority enough to be representative.

By this, I mean, even if the number of F230 CF/GCF is doubled, it's still less than majority. It can not be doubled though, since the number of events that have Winning Combinations are already more than half.

Also, part availability plays a role in how much it tops, whether people accept it or not. Bandid Genbull F230 TB (a confirmed box) used to be 48$, which is what I bought it for after it dropped from 55.
Some people have availability to multiple, such as Dark Mousy, I'm not calling him out but damn he has a lot of F230s.

I think part availability is implied that it's applicable already in the Winning Combinations. Some people have it, some people don't. Those who have it, use it, vice versa. If the majority of players don't have it, then it is OK as well, as shown in the Winning Combinations. I assure you that there are many Winning Combinations that have no F230 CF/GCF listed as well.

Another thing, F230 may not be prevalent in certain tournaments. Such as the ones in VA where we agree not to use it, as there have been a few tournaments excluding VA that had barred participants from using the part.

Events that used "No F230 house rules" are not counted in the Winning Combo statistic.

I didn't read that last part, s'cuse me hah. And I know it's impossible to get a list of all of them, but addressing the whole doubling thing, not all combos are submitted every time. I'm not trying to disprove you, but I don't think anything we do to address this situation will be all to precise. However, we can try testing in gratuitous amounts. I'm away from my normal home with my father at the moment so I don't have my 0G stadium, all I can do is Standard testing. The people that would test need to be determined for this endeavor. I volunteer myself, as soon as I get back to my original home.
If there were to be any testers, I'd like one from Toronto, TheBlackDragon (naturally), Tri if he'd be willing to help, Ingulit if he isn't busy with his new life and such. Any other really good testers would do.

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Veteran, just getting back into the sway of things

we can try testing in gratuitous amounts. I'm away from my normal home with my father at the moment so I don't have my 0G stadium, all I can do is Standard testing. The people that would test need to be determined for this endeavor. I volunteer myself, as soon as I get back to my original home.
If there were to be any testers, I'd like one from Toronto, TheBlackDragon (naturally), Tri if he'd be willing to help, Ingulit if he isn't busy with his new life and such. Any other really good testers would do.

Yep yep. I think every CM has a different method. Kei is advocating tests, etc, while Kai-V might use her keen observation of players discussions, etc. Anyway, we are all on the same page and that we are trying to find a solution to this.

Any other testers wanna help a brother out? Trying to move on up in the world of WBO and Beyblade. I fell and stopped posting for a long while.

I need testers.

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Veteran, just getting back into the sway of things

What we do not know from that data is how often each combination was used in the event. Nonetheless, I think 14.85% is hardly qualified enough to be banned. The bloated perception of "F230 everywhere" may come from the how often it was used in the event or merely from the overly hyped up discussion throughout the forum. Events that used "No F230 house rules" are not counted in the Winning Combo statistic.

...

Food for thought: If F230 CF/GCF is broken enough to obliterate other combinations it faces, why do the users of F230 CF/GCF still use other non F230 CF/GCF combinations throughout the event? 2 combos (left/right) F230 CF/GCF should have been enough to win events, no?

Something I thought I'd point out is that like you said, people will use other customs, and we don't know how much everything was used. People who place almost always have more than one winning combo, though, so for every F230 (x2 for each spin direction) used there's likely to be a B:D x2, stationary SA165 X2, etc. Plus, if the top three placers all used F230, there's a good chance that others did too, and just didn't make the cut (by losing a mirror match or something).

And also the "F230 everywhere" mindset could be from not TT Orange F230s. There really could be F230 everywhere, it could just be bad F230 that's considerably easier to take down than the ones you really have to watch out for.

Also like Leone19 and The Supreme One said (just bringing up specific examples) there were times when people would do a "self imposed F230 mercy rule" where they'd limit their own F230 uses.

This was pointed out before, but availability is also a thing too. You need luck and/or money to get a good F230, and some people are just unlucky or don't have the money/aren't willing to pay $48/$55/$64 or whatever for a Beyblade. I happen to be both unfortunately, but once upon a time I placed without a F230.

One last thing is that there was a time in between when F230 was released and when people discovered it's true potential. I'm pretty sure in its early days it got written off as just another gimmicky track when it didn't do as well as 230 on standard tall Stamina combos.

Any other testers wanna help a brother out? Trying to move on up in the world of WBO and Beyblade. I fell and stopped posting for a long while.

I need testers.

Sorry Doc, I wish I could help but I only have a Hasbro Orange and honestly, I'm not a very good tester. :/

Don't worry about it dude, just ask around a little if you would.

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Veteran, just getting back into the sway of things

Also like Leone19 and The Supreme One said (just bringing up specific examples) there were times when people would do a "self imposed F230 mercy rule" where they'd limit their own F230 uses.

For me it wasn't a "self imposed mercy rule" and it was as much as I wanted to use other combinations that I haven't in a while and that I've been working on (Girago Girago SA165 GF), since there haven't been many Zero-G events recently (since January).

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Also, true lion gale force wall and fee-hee-heenay call

Also like Leone19 and The Supreme One said (just bringing up specific examples) there were times when people would do a "self imposed F230 mercy rule" where they'd limit their own F230 uses.

For me it wasn't a "self imposed mercy rule" and it was as much as I wanted to use other combinations that I haven't in a while and that I've been working on (Girago Girago SA165 GF), since there haven't been many Zero-G events recently (since January).

Well, sorry I made that assumption. It was what you two made it sound like (at least to me) in whichever thread you brought it up in (Winning Combinations I think). Now that it's not 1:30 in the morning and I think about it, what you said actually makes more sense because you're against the ban. But still, we have another reason why people would use non-F230 customs.

I think it's a little unfair to use the statistic considering Maryland is the region that didn't send really any winning combos when Arupaeo was hosting Zero-G. When F230 became prevulent it was used by every placer in Maryland.

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(Click to View)

Tournaments I've Attended (Click to View)

4/29/12: The Spring Sortie (BB-10)
7/22/12: The Triple Threat (MFB+Plastics+HMS formats)
9/23/12: Autumn's Assault (Zero G)
October 2012: October Achtung (Zero G) (placed second)
12/15/12: Holiday Havoc! (Zero-G)
2/24/13: Paper vs. Plastic (Zero-G+Plastic Formats)
4/21/13: BR Maryland Qualifier (Zero-G)
5/26/12: BeyDays 2013! (BB-10) (placed first)
7/14/13: Heated Metal Plastic-y Madness! (HMS + Plastics) (placed third in HMS)
7/20/13: The Bey Brawl! (BB-10)
9/28/13 "OK, alright, mirai~!" (BB-10) (placed second)
12/15/13 No Limit Holdem'! (Zero-G, Limited)
1/19/14 Happy Gnu Year! (Zero-G)
2/23/14 Better Late Than Never! (Limited, Plastics, which I got 3rd in)
3/29/14 GBT2 North Carolina Qualfier (Limited, got 4th)
3/30/14 GBT2 Maryland Qualifier (Limited)
6/8/14 A Prehistoric Venture (Limited, HMS, placed first in HMS)
6/21/14 A Timely Farewell (Standard, Tag-Team (not official format), Zero-G, placed first in tag-team and third in Zero-G)

My Testing Threads (All Zero-G) (Click to View)

Diablo Kerbecs E230CF
SB Discussion
Q Discussion
MB Discussion
RS Discussion
BWD Discussion
MF-H Gravity Perseus BD145 RDF
MF-H Duo F230CF
F:S Discussion
SA165 Discussion

HMS Resources (Click to View)

HMS Question and Answer Thread
Competitive HMS Combos List
HMS Parts Discussion
HMS General Discussion

I think it's a little unfair to use the statistic considering Maryland is the region that didn't send really any winning combos when Arupaeo was hosting Zero-G. When F230 became prevulent it was used by every placer in Maryland.

Even so:

By this, I mean, even if the number of F230 CF/GCF is doubled, it's still less than majority. It can not be doubled though, since the number of events that have Winning Combinations are already more than half.

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Also, true lion gale force wall and fee-hee-heenay call

Is the data being used from after f230 was released or before because f230 came out after zero g became a legal format and that may change the data

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NORTH AMERICAN CHAMPION (MFL) 2014
You gotta risk it to get the biscuit

BEYBLADE WORLD CUP CHAMPION (BST) 2023
You gotta be in the fight to win the fight

Is the data being used from after f230 was released or before because f230 came out after zero g became a legal format and that may change the data

OK, as most of you know already, I've been compiling the data for Zero G events since the release of F230 (20th October 2012) and cross referenced it with the Winning Combos.

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Also, true lion gale force wall and fee-hee-heenay call

Is the data being used from after f230 was released or before because f230 came out after zero g became a legal format and that may change the data

OK, as most of you know already, I've been compiling the data for Zero G events since the release of F230 (20th October 2012) and cross referenced it with the Winning Combos.

Personally, I think The data should be gathered from when F230 showed it's first competitive use(that I know of), on Anime North 2013, Girago Dragooon F230GCF/CF.

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6 God is watching and I hope you're prepared to face him

Guys, please let me know what exactly you need F230 tested against, I can pretty much test it against anything but a Wyvang Wyvang set up, so let me know. I can provide video proof if necessary.

I'll have time tomorrow after classes to do testing, so I can do at least 30 rounds of testing against each combo, so let me know what it needs to be tested against.

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Guys, please let me know what exactly you need F230 tested against, I can pretty much test it against anything but a Wyvang Wyvang set up, so let me know. I can provide video proof if necessary.

I'll have time tomorrow after classes to do testing, so I can do at least 30 rounds of testing against each combo, so let me know what it needs to be tested against.

Guys, can some of you try posting test results for the following match-ups?:

• Duo Cygnus SA165TB vs. Genbull Genbull F230CF/GCF
  
• Duo Cygnus SA165BWD vs. Genbull Genbull F230CF/GCF
  
• Killerken Dragooon SA165BWD vs. Genbull Dragooon F230CF/GCF
  
• Killerken Dragooon SA165TB vs. Genbull Dragooon F230CF/GCF
  
• Wyvang Dragooon SA165 (Attack Mode) GCF vs. Genbull Dragooon F230CF/GCF
  
• Bahamdia Dragooon E230 (Boost Mode) CF/GCF vs. Genbull Dragooon F230CF/GCF
  

Any Zero-G Stadium is good. In fact, if you can do tests in more than one stadium, even better.

This would be a good place to start.

Guys, please let me know what exactly you need F230 tested against, I can pretty much test it against anything but a Wyvang Wyvang set up, so let me know. I can provide video proof if necessary.

Possibly MSF-H/L Bahamdia Dragoon SA165 (ZG Attack) GCF?

Wyvang would probably be better on setup like that, though it seemed to do well for Ultimate Blaze at Encore this year against an F230 setup that Geetster99 used. This would be much appreciated, thanks.

Putting some of the combos that Wombat quoted from Kei should probably be put ahead of the combo I mentioned, as some of the results may be more valuable.

Oh hey Uwik! Great job compiling everything. That's a looooong list.

However, I'd say there are several problems with it.

First of all, While F230 was released nearly two years ago now, F230CF/GCF was really only introduced into the tournament scene about 1 year ago, so the first 9-10 months of tournament results (which is where I assume the lack of F230 is found) really shouldn't be included if you ask me.

Second, that was when it was introduced into the NC meta, which was where it first made an impact. For other tournament regions, Like Maryland and/or CT, it happened much later, so that increases the number of tournaments where F230 either wasn't present or wasn't used simply because it hadn't been introduced into the meta.

Third, there are availability issues. As DrPepsidew said, the part is very, very expensive. 50 bucks for a piece of plastic is more than a lot of people can/are willing to pay. Only certain members have it in some areas, and as a result, although F230 does dominate, it doesn't show up in large numbers in the winning combinations because people don't own it.

Fourth, and this is arguably the biggest problem, you have no idea how many times each of those F230 combinations were used. From extensive experience, I can tell you that when an F230 combo shows up, it's usually spammed. It's a safe bet to make that any F230 combination you see posted was used at least 4 times during an event, and that's the honest truth. Plenty of players can testify to that. Also, oftentimes non-F230 combinations, sine they're not nearly as versatile, are only used once or twice. That said, the number of matches F230 was used in is probably much, much higher than 14%.

Fifth, you are still missing 33 of the 75 Zero-G tournaments recorded. That's 44%. We're missing nearly half of the data here. Furthermore, I'm assuming several of those were Maryland tournaments, considering the period of time where they posted no winning combinations for whatever reasons. Maryland is arguably the biggest F230 problem spot in the world. I can't be sure of this, But I would like to know, if you have the information, how many of those tournaments were played in Maryland. If any of them were, you're likely missing several tournaments where F230 was used very, very frequently.

That said, I appreciate the work it must've taken to compile that list, but I honestly think it's pretty much totally unreliable.

If you counted the number of matches between players who owned an Orange TAKARA TOMY F230 after July of 2013 in which F230 was used, I guarantee you you would get at least 50%, bare minimum. I would estimate more like 75%.

I realize gathering that information is impossible, but that's what we would need to really represent the frequency with which F230 is used.

Food for thought: If F230 CF/GCF is broken enough to obliterate other combinations it faces, why do the users of F230 CF/GCF still use other non F230 CF/GCF combinations throughout the event? 2 combos (left/right) F230 CF/GCF should have been enough to win events, no?

Because many, many players (I'd say the majority) who own F230 know how overpowered it is, and choose to use it sparingly (this happens extremely frequently in NC and VA) to either preserve the meta or to attempt to make the tournament more interesting by avoiding F230 matches, which I have witnessed firsthand extremely frequently (I'd say this happens with most players in NC), and which presents another huge, huge problem for the statistical evidence we have here.

And, just for the record, there have been tournaments where that's happened. Just ask Dark. Literally nothing but F230 for the entire event. When it is spammed, it does obliterate the other combinations it faces, and that's why so many people make pacts not to use it in events and avoid F230 matches whenever they can; because it's a big, very real problem, and some players decide to take it into their own hands.

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|Click here for the next tournament in North Carolina! |

Maryland was by far the biggest place for F230. These days Time asks the participants to not use F230. I mean I don't think it shouldn't be banned only if it isn't used a lot. I want it banned, because it's OverPowered. People might stop using it, because it's OP, and since you listed those events people might have seen that it was too good, and stopped using it. That might say the lack of use in the time you used it.

Honestly, even of the committee ends up deciding not to ban it, like TBD said, Tourney Organizers will always be asking entrants not too use F230. So it would just help if the committee were to ban it, instead of hosts asking participants not to use it.

Honestly, even of the committee ends up deciding not to ban it, like TBD said, Tourney Organizers will always be asking entrants not too use F230. So it would just help if the committee were to ban it, instead of hosts asking participants not to use it.

You can't necisarily say that when currently, not every region or event for that matter, does that.

Most currently don't, to my understanding.

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Also, true lion gale force wall and fee-hee-heenay call