Equipment/Test Details (Click to View)

Launcher Grip + Beypointer
BeyLauncher L + Launcher Rubber
WBBA Glove

Orange TAKARA-TOMY F230
Dragoon F230GCF always launched second
Same launch techniques from OP used for each match up

Zero-G Attack Stadium

MSF-L Genbull Dragoon F230GCF vs. MSF Killerken Dragooon B:D
MSF-L Genbull Dragoon F230GCF: 8 wins (All KO)
MSF Killerken Dragooon B:D: 2 wins (2 KO)
Dragooon F230GCF win rate: 80%

Should have been 10-0 for F230GCF due to some poor launches by me, but I think it’s important to consider this aspect as well. In some ways, your argument is dissonant with itself; you talk about how apparently easy it is for someone to walk into a tournament and sweep it with F230CF/GCF (I don’t doubt that it’s possible), yet then you go on to talk about all of these launch techniques that are needed to be successful against certain match ups. Clearly, it isn’t as simple as you are suggesting in certain parts of your case.

MSF-L Genbull Dragoon F230GCF vs. MSF Killerken Dragooon SA165BWD
MSF-L Genbull Dragoon F230GCF: 0 wins
MSF Killerken Dragooon SA165BWD: 10 wins (All OS)
Dragooon F230GCF win rate: 0%

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Zero-G Balance Stadium

MSF-L Genbull Dragoon F230GCF vs. MSF Killerken Dragooon B:D
MSF-L Genbull Dragoon F230GCF: 8 wins (6 KO, 2 OS)
MSF Killerken Dragooon B:D: 0 wins
2 Draws
Dragooon F230GCF win rate: 100%

MSF-L Genbull Dragoon F230GCF vs. MSF Killerken Dragooon SA165BWD
MSF-L Genbull Dragoon F230GCF: 0 wins
MSF Killerken Dragooon SA165BWD: 10 wins (All OS)
Dragooon F230GCF win rate: 0%

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Zero-G Defense Stadium

MSF-L Genbull Dragoon F230GCF vs. MSF Killerken Dragooon B:D
MSF-L Genbull Dragoon F230GCF: 5 wins (4 KO, 1 OS)
MSF Killerken Dragooon B:D: 4 wins (3 OS, 1 KO)
1 Draw
Dragooon F230GCF win rate: 50%

MSF-L Genbull Dragoon F230GCF vs. MSF Killerken Dragooon SA165BWD
MSF-L Genbull Dragoon F230GCF: 0 wins
MSF Killerken Dragooon SA165BWD: 10 wins (All OS)
Dragooon F230GCF win rate: 0%

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B:D got destroyed, but in looking at these results it should be obvious that it became progressively more difficult for F230CF/GCF to win as I moved from the Attack Stadium (where it should have won 10-0), to Balance, and then finally the Defense Stadium. In the Defense stadium if you aren’t able to move B:D from the large, flat stamina area in the middle for whatever reason, you will most likely lose unless F230CF/GCF or B:D is at an angle where it becomes possible to destabilize B:D. It’s not a lost cause in that stadium, but the match up isn’t as much of a home run for F230CF/GCF in that stadium as it is in Attack/Balance where it can KO or at the very least, sway it violently enough to drain its Stamina. This stadium proves that B:D straight up has more Stamina than F230CF/GCF when sway is not always a factor. I don’t know about other areas like North Carolina, but in Toronto all three stadiums are in regular rotation at every Zero-G Format tournament, so for us, it’s an important factor to consider and one that I don’t think should be excluded from this discussion as it seems to have been so far. All three are legal, remember.

As for SA165BWD, maybe now you’ll understand why F230CF/GCF isn’t the game breaker that it seems to be in North Carolina. The results fairly accurately represent what happens in Toronto tournaments with this match up. There’s no contest, usually. What I don’t understand is why your results are so drastically different. I watched your video and in comparison, my custom/BWD doesn’t move nearly as much and seems to have much better balance than yours, for some reason.

It’s also worth mentioning my use of MSF on B:D/SA165BWD. I don’t have any results to back this up so I could be wrong, but in match ups like these (and for Zero-G in general, I guess), I feel that additional weight is important for all types to either a) Increase your sway power or b) Increase your resistance to sway. Maybe this made a difference.

Finally, I think it's also important to consider right-spin SA165TB's performance against right-spin F230CF/GCF while we are determining whether or not F230CF/GCF is truly deserving of being banned. Right-spin SA165TB has an easier time against right-spin F230CF/GCF than left-spin variants do against left-spin F230CF/GCF, for some reason. TheBlackDragon posted about this a while ago here: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Why-F230...pid1168106 I haven't tested left-spin SA165TB myself so perhaps my results would also be different, but we all should be aware that there may be more options for dealing with right-spin F230CF/GCF than left-spin F230CF/GCF.

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I've gotten the same results using BWDs of all different levels of ware, both with and without a second person, and I can usually hit at least 80% very consistently.

The launches really aren't all that hard. The one thing that sometimes throws people off, is the fact that you need to launch at 100%, right up to the very edge of the stadium. It's precise, but it's extremely easy to learn (not to mention it's basically a basic Zero-G Attack launch, which every competitive player should know anyway).

The launches are, overall, very basic, easy to learn, and easy to remember. It took me all of about 30 seconds to learn how to launch properly against various opponents, so it really doesn't take much skill/effort to learn (from my experience and that of others I've talked to, at least; there may be people who have more trouble, but I have yet to meet any of them).

You make a very good point concerning each type of stadium. However, most regions only use the Attack type stadium, for format balance reasons/availability issues. It is undoubtedly the most mainstream/prevalent stadium used, and results in the Attack type stadium usually simulate the worldwide tournament scene better than results from the other variants.

You also make a good point about right-spin TB's resistance to right-spin F230 combinations. However, that brings you to the question of how complicated you're willing to make the ban. Are we gonna ban Dragooon Synchrom F230CF/GCF in the Attack (or maybe Balance; don't have much experience with it, so couldn't make a call there) stadium(s)?

I'd personally be completely fine with something like that, but I don't know whether or not it would be considered too complex for new players.

EDIT: I just did some informal testing using MSF-L Genbull Dragooon F230GCF vs. MSF-H Genbull Dragooon SA165BWD (using a mint, really sharp BWD for sway resistance). I still didn't have much trouble ZGKOing. When I used the very calm, passive F230, it was considerably more difficult to actually land a KO (swaying it around wasn't much of a problem; just actually getting it to leave the stadium), but it was able to OS very, very easily by knocking the opponent off balance after depleting its spin via sway.

So yah. MSF-H and a mint BWD did a little bit better in terms of sway resistance, but my very, very conservative win rate estimate would be around 80% (most likely higher, but I don't wanna over shoot it) for F230.

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|Click here for the next tournament in North Carolina! |

Guys, can some of you please test MSF-L Genbull Dragoon F230GCF vs. MSF Killerken Dragooon SA165BWD so we can get a better idea of who's results are more accurate or whether there is some other issue we're not aware of going on here? Preferably in all three stadiums, but whatever you can do would be appreciated.

The launches really aren't all that hard. The one thing that sometimes throws people off, is the fact that you need to launch at 100%, right up to the very edge of the stadium. It's precise, but it's extremely easy to learn (not to mention it's basically a basic Zero-G Attack launch, which every competitive player should know anyway).

The launches are, overall, very basic, easy to learn, and easy to remember. It took me all of about 30 seconds to learn how to launch properly against various opponents, so it really doesn't take much skill/effort to learn (from my experience and that of others I've talked to, at least; there may be people who have more trouble, but I have yet to meet any of them).

You're right. I'm just saying that it isn't as simple as owning the parts and automatically winning/sweeping tournaments because of that.

You make a very good point concerning each type of stadium. However, most regions only use the Attack type stadium, for format balance reasons/availability issues. It is undoubtedly the most mainstream/prevalent stadium used, and results in the Attack type stadium usually simulate the worldwide tournament scene better than results from the other variants.

Yeah, that's what I suspected. However, placing more importance on regions which ignore particular stadiums (whether out of choice or because they simply don't own them) doesn't make sense to me. It's like saying we should look only at regions where players don't own F230 or where it isn't a problem when considering whether or not it should be banned. We can't do that. What it comes down to is considering the game from an objective perspective where parts/stadium availability is not an issue. Like others have suggested, we cannot ban a part/combination of parts in just one region because that's where it is problematic; we have to look at the game as whole, free from all location/community-specific, player-specific issues and preferences to the best of our ability.

You also make a good point about right-spin TB's resistance to right-spin F230 combinations. However, that brings you to the question of how complicated you're willing to make the ban. Are we gonna ban Dragooon Synchrom F230CF/GCF in the Attack (or maybe Balance; don't have much experience with it, so couldn't make a call there) stadium(s)?

I'd personally be completely fine with something like that, but I don't know whether or not it would be considered too complex for new players.

If I were to ban anything right now, it would be Dragooon F230 CF/GCF. Whether we determine that something like that is too complicated or not is unclear right now. That being said, I'm still not convinced that even that specific combination is worthy of a ban at this point.

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On the topic of Stadiums, Maryland always switches Stadiums, and MD is part of your main argument in that it is overrunning tournaments.

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(Click to View)

Tournaments I've Attended (Click to View)

4/29/12: The Spring Sortie (BB-10)
7/22/12: The Triple Threat (MFB+Plastics+HMS formats)
9/23/12: Autumn's Assault (Zero G)
October 2012: October Achtung (Zero G) (placed second)
12/15/12: Holiday Havoc! (Zero-G)
2/24/13: Paper vs. Plastic (Zero-G+Plastic Formats)
4/21/13: BR Maryland Qualifier (Zero-G)
5/26/12: BeyDays 2013! (BB-10) (placed first)
7/14/13: Heated Metal Plastic-y Madness! (HMS + Plastics) (placed third in HMS)
7/20/13: The Bey Brawl! (BB-10)
9/28/13 "OK, alright, mirai~!" (BB-10) (placed second)
12/15/13 No Limit Holdem'! (Zero-G, Limited)
1/19/14 Happy Gnu Year! (Zero-G)
2/23/14 Better Late Than Never! (Limited, Plastics, which I got 3rd in)
3/29/14 GBT2 North Carolina Qualfier (Limited, got 4th)
3/30/14 GBT2 Maryland Qualifier (Limited)
6/8/14 A Prehistoric Venture (Limited, HMS, placed first in HMS)
6/21/14 A Timely Farewell (Standard, Tag-Team (not official format), Zero-G, placed first in tag-team and third in Zero-G)

My Testing Threads (All Zero-G) (Click to View)

Diablo Kerbecs E230CF
SB Discussion
Q Discussion
MB Discussion
RS Discussion
BWD Discussion
MF-H Gravity Perseus BD145 RDF
MF-H Duo F230CF
F:S Discussion
SA165 Discussion

HMS Resources (Click to View)

HMS Question and Answer Thread
Competitive HMS Combos List
HMS Parts Discussion
HMS General Discussion

On the topic of Stadiums, Maryland always switches Atadiums, and MD is part of your main argument in that it is overrunning tournaments.

Frequently?

On the topic of specific stadiums, I was more shooting for "Attack is the most balanced/tournament friendly/mainstream" stadium, than I was focusing on specific regions in terms of actual location/community isolation.

Defense/Balance type stadiums can give advantages to specific types (primarily Stamina, especially B : D, if stuff like that is really that much harder to ZGKO), and nearly all tournament/test results are derived from the Attack stadium. I honestly think that, at this point, the Attack stadium is what we should be focused on right now.

Even so, the fact that it may not be overpowered in the Defense/Balance stadiums doesn't change the fact that it stands so in the Attack type stadium. I honestly don't see how anyone could consider it unworthy of banishment at this point (but, then again, I'm not "anyone," so...). The fact of the matter is, it is a problem (to what extent may vary in opinion between players, but overall IMO we can all definitely agree that it doesn't do the game any good), and it should be considered that we may/probably will have to limit it to some extent.

ginga: That is mostly inconsequential. Like I said before, the fact that it performs differently in the Defense type stadium doesn't change the fact that it's overpowered in the Attack stadium

In fact, if anything, it makes my argument stronger. Even in the Defense stadium, it has still become utterly dominant, regardless of any change in performance.

I edited my above post with something you guys should read.

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|Click here for the next tournament in North Carolina! |

Just from seeing the difference between the two that I own and others, especially beymaster15963's there is a significant difference in performance among orange f230s. Both of mine, when handspun are lucky to reach two seconds whereas his can go for nearly 10. This is probably part of the difference you guys Kei and tbd are experiencing. Yet, even if it is only the best of the orange f230s that are a nearly unconquerable top, something needs to be done.

Usually smoother ones are more passive, and I've never seen one as smooth as the one I used, let alone so much so to produce 80-90% differences in win rates.

Yet, even if it is only the best of the orange f230s that are a nearly unconquerable top, something needs to be done.

Too true my friend.

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|Click here for the next tournament in North Carolina! |

Kei and TheBlackDragon:
I'm interested in the conflicting tests of F230(G)CF vs SA165BWD. As we've basically excluded BWD from being at fault and if the difference is F230's then that still shows some Orange F230's are capable of it, there is only one factor I can think of which would perhaps cause F230 to win when in a completely fair situation it wouldn't - Dragooon molds.
There's a mold difference which results in some being almost 2g lighter, and as the heavier mold is pretty decently balanced while a significant amount of the metal lost on the lighter/thinner version comes from the area surrounding the peg hole, aside from the defensive implications of it being lighter it would probably also have worse balance, which could explain different movement etc etc.

Nocto has pictures HERE, the one on the left is the heavier mold, the second picture is a closeup of the main place the difference is noticeable - the underside of that head has an extra layer of metal outline at the head on the heavier mold, giving it three steps instead of the two of the lighter mold.

If you can check which you used or if you don't know, retest if possible with two identical (preferably heavy) molds or as a last resort, redo them and swap the dragooon's after ten rounds (including the round-by-round results in your post) that would be good, as this is a pretty major point in the discussion.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Before this I was still in favor of keeping F230. After reading this section and it's quotes I see F230 is too good. I think again that F230 should be banned, but F230CF/GCF as F230 alone doesn't put up much of a fight. Beyond that I support F230 ban completely. This doesn't mean we should stop testing to find a counter. If we do though, will the ban be dropped or will we have to find more counters, until F230 is outclassed?

If a part no longer deserves to be banned, it should be unbanned. Whether or not that would be after one counter is found or not is impossible to say as it depends on how that counter affects/fits into the metagame overall amongst other things. That would likely happen before it became useless, as any custom strong enough to make such a dominant setup completely non-viable would likely be broken itself - outclassed isn't the right word though, as that would imply a part doing the same thing much better, which a) is probably not possible unless we get new releases in which case it would depend on the effect other new parts have on game balance and b) if a setup actually outclassed f230 and had no other effect on the format bar an exaggerated version of F230's, it would probably just be banned alongside F230 rather than F230 being unbanned, though there are a lot of factors in that.

Basically only my first sentence matters.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

th!nk just reminded me of something very important I forgot to mention - the testing in the video was performed with plexiglass over the carpet, so the surface was hard and smooth.

Kei: What surface were you testing on? I always use the plexiglass. Don't know if that could provide an explanation or not.

Yes, I'm aware of the Dragooon molding differences. Both the Dragooons I used in the testing were the heavier mold, both Takara.

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|Click here for the next tournament in North Carolina! |

th!nk just reminded me of something very important I forgot to mention - the testing in the video was performed with plexiglass over the carpet, so the surface was hard and smooth.

Kei: What surface were you testing on? I always use the plexiglass. Don't know if that could provide an explanation or not.

Yes, I'm aware of the Dragooon molding differences. Both the Dragooons I used in the testing were the heavier mold, both Takara.

TBH, hasbro 2 pack mold is a little bettter for spin stealing than the other molds I've noticed..

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I am an odd person sometimes, here's why (Click to View)

th!nk just reminded me of something very important I forgot to mention - the testing in the video was performed with plexiglass over the carpet, so the surface was hard and smooth.

Kei: What surface were you testing on? I always use the plexiglass. Don't know if that could provide an explanation or not.

Yes, I'm aware of the Dragooon molding differences. Both the Dragooons I used in the testing were the heavier mold, both Takara.

TBH, hasbro 2 pack mold is a little bettter for spin stealing than the other molds I've noticed..

Last I checked what contains each mold is not confirmed, and also, that kinda thing requires testing to back up generally speaking, and this is also not really the place to discuss it.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Where does the committee (Not everyone else) stand on the issue of F230 right now? I think we have enough arguments from both sides to justify at least an official response from the committee. With BeyDays coming up in the next couple months along with new waves from Hasbro IE Bandit Genbu, I think its time for something official to be done.

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Speaking of that, I got the Hasbro's Orange, on Dragoon F230 CF it lost to Phantom Orion, about 95% of my informal matches.

I'll have official tests soon.

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Also, true lion gale force wall and fee-hee-heenay call

I obviously motion we ban it for use with CF/GCF (or at least with Dragooon CF/GCF).

I believe a sufficient case has been presented thus far. I would love love love love LOVE to see it hit the dirt before Beydays. Gosh, that would be unbelievably great...

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|Click here for the next tournament in North Carolina! |

I obviously motion we ban it for use with CF/GCF (or at least with Dragooon CF/GCF).

I believe a sufficient case has been presented thus far. I would love love love love LOVE to see it hit the dirt before Beydays. Gosh, that would be unbelievably great...

Agreed with TBD. Obviously the only custom that i see is ban worthy is Dragooon F230CF/GCF.

I wouldn't agree with banning the part entirely because there are many applications for F230 that are yet to be discovered. I've always thought F230RDF (like Right SG Bearing Version 2 from plastics but taller) would be nice against SA165 spin-equalizers.

I would really like the avenue of different test results to be further developped before a decision is made. Even if there are currently more players who obtain overpowered results for F230, Kei's tests are inherently valid and should not be ignored. People should try to reproduce them as much as possible.

The thing is if some people are getting that result, odds are it means it's possible - and we've got videos of a two player match where it happens. TheBlackDragon already covered the possibility of it being due to BWD or the Dragooon's involved, and for something to be done wrong from here it would basically mean mislaunching BWD - which as a Defense tip isn't really affected by launch technique as long as the strength is there.
On the other hand, for something to be up with Kei's tests, all that has to happen is CF/GCF - a flat tip being used to KO something, not being used properly or F230 not being given appropriate maintenance or whatever - I mean no disrespect to Kei, but to me it seems much more likely that this is the cause even given his abilities. More tests would of course be fantastic, but TheBlackDragon's tests, unless fault can be found with them, show that SA165BWD is not a reliable counter to Dragooon F230(G)CF. I would also think that if SA165BWD were an effective counter, it would've broken F230(G)CF's grip on North Carolina etc by now - it's not a difficult combination to use, it works against a lot of other things in the format, and it has been known as a possible counter for a while now, so there shouldn't be anything holding it back if it actually works. I'm curious to know if it has seen use at all in the F230-dominated areas, if so how it's done, if not were people aware of it, why did they not use it etc etc.

Personally I'm having to base this off what others say as I don't own a Zero G Stadium, so that was my thought process on that particular part of it, seeing as you brought it up.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

I don't understand the big fuss. Honestly, the way I see it is that, you're complaining because your region is basically Dragoon F230CF/GCF spam. In NC and MD, all I see in Winning Combos are Dragooon F230. And why is there not F230 in Chicago or Michigan, and other states in winning combos commonly? It can be two things: People didn't use F230, or they used it and lost.
In Synchrom Saturday, I used Dragoon F230 against Saramanda something E230GCF, and lost.
So my conclusion here, is that the only reason Dragooom F230 is dominant in certain regions is because you guys don't use a lot different. Remember when all you saw in Winning Combos was Dragoon BD145MF and SA165EWD? It's because they didn't use a lot of varieties.

F230 is not a monster. The reason we are not getting good results with beyblades against F230 is because we are using the wrong heights. Think about the Goldilocks Theory. It's too high(Wyvang Dragooon SA165R2F), it's too low(some LTAC), but that is just right(Bahamdia Dragooon BD145R2F). You need the right amount of speed, smash, and height to be able to defeat F230 setups. Another way you can defeat it is by using aggressive w/ GCF(Begirados Begirados 100GCF). It might seem risky at first, but think about it. Both cancel eachother out since they have the same pattern, but since F230 has a plastic tip, Begirados has just enough smash to KO F230 setups.
Whew! That was long

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I am your dog.
Thanks for the sig, Rock kyoya!

I don't understand the big fuss. Honestly, the way I see it is that, you're complaining because your region is basically Dragoon F230CF/GCF spam. In NC and MD, all I see in Winning Combos are Dragooon F230. And why is there not F230 in Chicago or Michigan, and other states in winning combos commonly? It can be two things: People didn't use F230, or they used it and lost.
In Synchrom Saturday, I used Dragoon F230 against Saramanda something E230GCF, and lost.
So my conclusion here, is that the only reason Dragooom F230 is dominant in certain regions is because you guys don't use a lot different. Remember when all you saw in Winning Combos was Dragoon BD145MF and SA165EWD? It's because they didn't use a lot of varieties.

F230 is not a monster. The reason we are not getting good results with beyblades against F230 is because we are using the wrong heights. Think about the Goldilocks Theory. It's too high(Wyvang Dragooon SA165R2F), it's too low(some LTAC), but that is just right(Bahamdia Dragooon BD145R2F). You need the right amount of speed, smash, and height to be able to defeat F230 setups. Another way you can defeat it is by using aggressive w/ GCF(Begirados Begirados 100GCF). It might seem risky at first, but think about it. Both cancel eachother out since they have the same pattern, but since F230 has a plastic tip, Begirados has just enough smash to KO F230 setups.
Whew! That was long

This discussion is about Zero G and I'm almost positive Synchrome Saturday was BB-10. Obviously it's not hard to beat Dragooon F230 CF/GCF with attack types in BB-10, I even saw something on 90/100 beat it.

I still personally do not want to ban it in Zero G (someone asked me if I still don't want it banned through a PM). I'm not sure how TBD got the results against TB. I have seen TB win in tournament scenarios a lot more than that. It is a risky option to use (especially Dragooon SA165 TB), but if you take the risk it pays off. Obviously this discussion about banning it is pretty one sided with arguments saying ban F230, I guess if people really want it banned it will be banned sooner or later then.

We did free-play battles afterwards. Again, the reason NC is having such trouble with F230 is because that's all they're using. Here's a solution guys: Use Thunder Domes idea! It might be a risk, but it's worth it. Honestly, tests mean nothing in tournaments.
Nothing at all. In tournaments, stuff changes, a LOT. Unless, of course everybody has the same angle and same power for launch in testing(which we all know is not true). Why should we post tests rather than get tournament results? I suggest next tournament, we get at least one person to play F230(and I don't mean spam it) in the Zero-G Format, and we'll see what happens.

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I am your dog.
Thanks for the sig, Rock kyoya!

Snoop Dog MS, I would pay more attention if I were you (I would also stop posting about tournament results from a Standard format event). The reason is not overuse. That's not why it's dominant. If that were the reason, I or some other NC player would've brought in a counter and ravaged our tournament scene by now. The reason behind its dominance is its difficulty to counter, and the fact that it's the best option in most every situation.

I do not use F230 in Zero-G, unless I'm positive the other person is using it, and I therefore must neutralize it. Most NC players do not spam F230 anymore, because we saw what it did to our meta.

However, Dark_Mousy likes it a lot, and he sweeps tournaments all the time, using only F230 customs, even when the entire tournament itself is focused on beating him. Yes, SA165BWD has been tried, and failed. That said, the reason is most certainly not overuse alone.

No offense intended, of course; sorry if that sounded a bit blatant haha.

I have a theory about what I stated earlier concerning Dragooon SA165's vulnerability to force smash/destabilization compared to Duo/Genbull combinations. I was thinking about MSF-M Bahamdia Dragooon BD145R2F, as we had been discussing it over in the Standard tier list discussion thread, and the thought hit me: " This thing blows F230 through the roof in Standard, even better than Balro, against both spin directions."

That's when I realized that the reason behind its vulnerability to destabilization in Zero-G and its aggression in STD are tied. Dragooon has an extremely aggressively designed topside! Duo/Genbull aren't exactly what you'd call aggressively designed. The recoil you get from Dragooon's topside kills it against taller combinations, which explains why Dragooon F230CF can OS Dragooon SA165BWD reliably the majority of the time (for me, at least; just kinda blabbing out my thoughts here).


EDIT: Ho dang just saw dis:

Honestly, tests mean nothing in tournaments.
Nothing at all. In tournaments, stuff changes, a LOT. Unless, of course everybody has the same angle and same power for launch in testing(which we all know is not true). Why should we post tests rather than get tournament results? I suggest next tournament, we get at least one person to play F230(and I don't mean spam it) in the Zero-G Format, and we'll see what happens.

I don't think you realize that my case is based 90% on tournament results.

No offense, but you're really not the one to be talking about Zero-G tournament results. In fact, I'm not so sure you've ever seen F230 played officially in ZRG (could be wrong, but with all the STD you guys do up there I can guarantee Geetster, Time, Dark, DrPepsidew and I have all seen it used far more, and probably more correctly).

Testing doesn't mat... oh, wow...

I just... wow...

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Testing doesn't MATTER?
Y'know, I have a few points, it'd be a little redundant to say them though. You're a little off the deep end.
Standard is not as bad at all as 0G. Even if you've found a counter, if another member tests it, and gets blatant results contradictory to yours, it no longer stays a counter.

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Veteran, just getting back into the sway of things

I think he misworded that, haha.

I don't think he necessarily meant to say testing doesn't matter at all- I think he meant in tournaments, it's possible to get different results from testing, which has first-hand happened to me, before.

All of the "Oh wows" are pretty unnecessary...

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Also, true lion gale force wall and fee-hee-heenay call