The only problem is that results are never consistent in the matchups you just mentioned; while it is possible for ZRG Attack to take down F230, it's unlikely at best. F230 customs can pretty easily beat Stamina customs by ZRG KO, and F230 mirror matches are exactly what we want to avoid.
This is a point that I have stressed time and time and time again, and the fact that people keep returning to it is honestly getting kind of irritating; something does not have to be unbeatable to be ban-worthy. Nothing is unbeatable, ever. Some things, however, are far too difficult to beat, to the point where they severely disrupt the balance of the meta.
That's what happened with Libra, and we banned it; I don't see why the same rules don't apply here.
Just to emphasize the importance of this fact, I'm going to re-post the section in the OP that I wrote discussing
this point:
Again, I don't know why this discussion has gone on for so long; no offense intended to anybody in any way, and I'm sorry if this sounds arrogant or rude, but I honestly have not seen one substantial argument given anywhere in this thread by anybody to suggest that the situation here is any different than the situation we had with Libra.
I think it's high time we made a decision about this; even if the answer is no, I'd rather know now than continue to reiterate the same arguments over and over until everyone gets fed up with discussion and abandons the topic.
As far as Toronto's ZRG meta goes, I'm honestly kind of confused by it; it's the only place on earth where F230 has been introduced and hasn't completely overrun everything. From looking at your tournament results, it seems as though F230 customs are still dominating almost every single event.
I assume this is due to one of three things. Either 1) you guys are using the Balance and Defense stadiums a lot, which makes it far, far more difficult for F230 to win against same-spin Stamina (that would explain the apparent success you guys are having with Dragooon SA165 and B : D, which nobody else has ever had), 2) you guys just aren't using it a lot, or 3) it's dominating your meta, but it doesn't bother you all that much.
I'm leaning more toward number 2 (or a combination of 1 and 2), since Honey (or whatever his name is now, haha) reported that F230 performed almost flawlessly at your last Zero-G event, and that's saying something considering the fact that the tournament was apparently extremely ZRG-Attack heavy. He also said, however, that F230 was used some, not a lot. My personal guess is that F230 is performing just as well in Toronto as everywhere else, but players aren't as likely to use it frequently, which helps curb its effect on the meta.
That's my best guess; any input from Toronto players on this assertion would be nice, since I've obviously never played there.
Also, one final comment on the proposed ban itself. _______ Dragooon F230 CF/GCF is obviously the biggest threat in this situation, so it should definitely be banned.
Right-spin F230, however, is a different story; because right-spin TB and MB customs are competitive in the Zero-G meta, there are a few viable counters out there to right-spin F230 combinations.
However, Genbull Genbull F230 is still a problem, because of its heavy weight and its potency as a Zero-G Attack type. It isn't quite as bad as Dragooon F230, but it's still very dangerous, and I think, to be safe, it should be banned as well.
Duo F230, on the other hand, is far less threatening; it's definitely one of the most competitive combinations out there, but its light weight makes it far less effective against same-spin Stamina, and extremely prone to KO against ZRG-Attack combinations. Duo F230 is only a minor threat to the meta at worst.
That said, this is the ban that I would propose: All Synchrom F230 (CF/GCF) combinations are now illegal in Zero-G tournament play.
This solves the problem. Duo F230 can stay, and F230CF/GCF as a setup isn't entirely banned, but the overpowered combinations are eliminated. Win win situation.
I would strongly encourage the committee to implement this ban as soon as possible.
This is a point that I have stressed time and time and time again, and the fact that people keep returning to it is honestly getting kind of irritating; something does not have to be unbeatable to be ban-worthy. Nothing is unbeatable, ever. Some things, however, are far too difficult to beat, to the point where they severely disrupt the balance of the meta.
That's what happened with Libra, and we banned it; I don't see why the same rules don't apply here.
Just to emphasize the importance of this fact, I'm going to re-post the section in the OP that I wrote discussing
this point:
Quote:I'm making an entire subsection here for this statement, because it is so vitally important that it is certainly acceptable, and, in my opinion, necessary.
Another point people seem to miss, is that, to be ban-worthy, something must be unbeatable.
I literally cannot list for you guys all the times I've heard people say:
A truly disturbing number of people Wrote:"F230 is crazy flippin' powerful, but it isn't unbeatable."
It doesn't have to be unbeatable. Libra was not unbeatable. Basalt was not unbeatable. They were simply dominant to the point that they created a very unhealthy environment for tournament players.
I'm really sorry I had to upsize and bold that statement. It's just such a common misconception among players that I needed to try to emphasize it a much as possible. F230 is just barely beatable, given the player guesses perfectly, predicts the opponent's launch techniques, and pulls no small amount of luck from the sidelines, but to say that it is not prominently unhealthy for the game is quite laughable to me to be perfectly honest
Kei in the "Should We Ban Basalt?" Thread Wrote:Counters do indeed exist, but what I'm trying to emphasize is that despite it's fallibility, it is still overpowered in general. Libra wasn't unbeatable either, but we still banned it.
Even if you do think that some of the counters we discussed earlier are viable, the fact is that something doesn't have to be unbeatable to be ban-worthy. F230 is certainly "overpowered in general" from my point of view, and definitely ban-worthy to say the least.
Again, I don't know why this discussion has gone on for so long; no offense intended to anybody in any way, and I'm sorry if this sounds arrogant or rude, but I honestly have not seen one substantial argument given anywhere in this thread by anybody to suggest that the situation here is any different than the situation we had with Libra.
I think it's high time we made a decision about this; even if the answer is no, I'd rather know now than continue to reiterate the same arguments over and over until everyone gets fed up with discussion and abandons the topic.
As far as Toronto's ZRG meta goes, I'm honestly kind of confused by it; it's the only place on earth where F230 has been introduced and hasn't completely overrun everything. From looking at your tournament results, it seems as though F230 customs are still dominating almost every single event.
I assume this is due to one of three things. Either 1) you guys are using the Balance and Defense stadiums a lot, which makes it far, far more difficult for F230 to win against same-spin Stamina (that would explain the apparent success you guys are having with Dragooon SA165 and B : D, which nobody else has ever had), 2) you guys just aren't using it a lot, or 3) it's dominating your meta, but it doesn't bother you all that much.
I'm leaning more toward number 2 (or a combination of 1 and 2), since Honey (or whatever his name is now, haha) reported that F230 performed almost flawlessly at your last Zero-G event, and that's saying something considering the fact that the tournament was apparently extremely ZRG-Attack heavy. He also said, however, that F230 was used some, not a lot. My personal guess is that F230 is performing just as well in Toronto as everywhere else, but players aren't as likely to use it frequently, which helps curb its effect on the meta.
That's my best guess; any input from Toronto players on this assertion would be nice, since I've obviously never played there.
Also, one final comment on the proposed ban itself. _______ Dragooon F230 CF/GCF is obviously the biggest threat in this situation, so it should definitely be banned.
Right-spin F230, however, is a different story; because right-spin TB and MB customs are competitive in the Zero-G meta, there are a few viable counters out there to right-spin F230 combinations.
However, Genbull Genbull F230 is still a problem, because of its heavy weight and its potency as a Zero-G Attack type. It isn't quite as bad as Dragooon F230, but it's still very dangerous, and I think, to be safe, it should be banned as well.
Duo F230, on the other hand, is far less threatening; it's definitely one of the most competitive combinations out there, but its light weight makes it far less effective against same-spin Stamina, and extremely prone to KO against ZRG-Attack combinations. Duo F230 is only a minor threat to the meta at worst.
That said, this is the ban that I would propose: All Synchrom F230 (CF/GCF) combinations are now illegal in Zero-G tournament play.
This solves the problem. Duo F230 can stay, and F230CF/GCF as a setup isn't entirely banned, but the overpowered combinations are eliminated. Win win situation.
I would strongly encourage the committee to implement this ban as soon as possible.
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