[Takara Tomy]  Geist Fafnir Testing and Discussion

I decided to do some random testing against Geist Fafnir since I think it was more powerful than people were giving it credit.

I only tested Geist against God layers since Limited is a format balanced around God layers, so you'd want the meta God layers being the control group. I chose not to put Geist against any right spin Atomic users since this Geist Fafnir combo would win almost every round using LAD.

I chose to use gF.0G.Ds since a stationary combo like Outer.Eternal would just get ran over by nL and I do not own Bearing. The mobility helps it avoid contact. This is basically an old Hell Salamander combo with Geist Fafnir instead.


Geist Fafnir.0Glaive.Destroy vs Nightmare Longinus.Angle.Xtreme'

Geist Fafnir.0Glaive.Destroy vs MGC Twin Nemesis.00Bump.Xtreme'
Honestly this just felt like I was using wV into hS. I could try different right spin attack layers, I just felt like Twin Nemesis would be the best choice since Sieg Xcalibur is better into right spin.
Try using Twin Nemesis on Ultimate Reboot’ or Destroy. And for Nightmare Longinus, try Turn and Hunter’ please.
AirKingNeo thank you for the tests!  I did a little bit of recording to help with any future testing you may want to try with gF.  I think your tests showed gF defensive capabilities so I just recorded a little bit to remind myself about gF’s stamina.  I have tested gF in the recent past but did not record.  I think recording can sometimes show us things the numbers can’t.  However, these are just quick looks and not to be mistaken for formal testing .

1) opp spin capability of  gF

https://youtu.be/EuvjVYfulPw

Seems like gF can only hope to draw with aC or be defeated by aC

2) same spin capability of gF

https://youtu.be/mLdnlwlQOCE

Seems like a bit of a toss up with possibly dF having the slight edge?  Of course with so few rounds this doesn’t mean much.  But I don’t think gF is a stamina power house? 

3) I also just recorded a few rounds of nL.α.X’ vs gF.0G.Ds. I launched the beys together and ofc that can change things.  But nL did pretty well for me. This is also to remind myself what this match up was like for me. 

https://youtu.be/zGIFU7Xy6rk

Edit:
Found some time to complete my current thought on gF.

4) just 3 rounds of aC.0P.At vs dF.0P.At. I think even this is enough to show what I am trying to say as in round one it was a clear win for dF, round 2 a clear win for aC, and round 3 looks like a draw or at least bet close.  gF with the same set up was unable to win any rounds against this same aC combo.

https://youtu.be/Hpr6pDbl2n4


The conclusion for me personally is that gF isn’t so clearly better than dF, a god layer. This is only at this present time of course. Ad more testing and results come in, my impression on gF may certainly change. dF seems to have about the same stamina as gF, it  seems better in opposite spin, and both seems to struggle against nL.
(Jul. 01, 2020  1:51 AM)CheetoBlader Wrote: Try using Twin Nemesis on Ultimate Reboot’ or Destroy. And for Nightmare Longinus, try Turn and Hunter’ please.

I don't own Ul', and as for Destroy, I think we can assume we'd use tN.00E.Ds and we would tie (or win, if Expand.Ds right spin is better LAD than Glaive.Ds left spin) with Geist Fafnir, but the tN combo itself wouldn't be necessarily viable because of the self burst risk and bursting against other attack types who have dash drivers.

I don't own Hunter' and I do not see the merit of using Turn.Hn' on nL in the first place. Does this combo do anything in particular?

(Jul. 01, 2020  3:47 AM)Shindog Wrote: AirKingNeo thank you for the tests!  I did a little bit of recording to help with any future testing you may want to try with gF.  I think your tests showed gF defensive capabilities so I just recorded a little bit to remind myself about gF’s stamina.  I have tested gF in the recent past but did not record.  I think recording can sometimes show us things the numbers can’t.  However, these are just quick looks and not to be mistaken for formal testing .

1) opp spin capability of  gF

https://youtu.be/EuvjVYfulPw

Seems like gF can only hope to draw with aC or be defeated by aC

2) same spin capability of gF

https://youtu.be/mLdnlwlQOCE

Seems like a bit of a toss up with possibly dF having the slight edge?  Of course with so few rounds this doesn’t mean much.  But I don’t think gF is a stamina power house? 

3) I also just recorded a few rounds of nL.α.X’ vs gF.0G.Ds. I launched the beys together and ofc that can change things.  But nL did pretty well for me. This is also to remind myself what this match up was like for me. 

https://youtu.be/zGIFU7Xy6rk

Edit:
Found some time to complete my current thought on gF.

4) just 3 rounds of aC.0P.At vs dF.0P.At. I think even this is enough to show what I am trying to say as in round one it was a clear win for dF, round 2 a clear win for aC, and round 3 looks like a draw or at least bet close.  gF with the same set up was unable to win any rounds against this same aC combo.

https://youtu.be/Hpr6pDbl2n4


The conclusion for me personally is that gF isn’t so clearly better than dF, a god layer. This is only at this present time of course. Ad more testing and results come in, my impression on gF may certainly change. dF seems to have about the same stamina as gF, it  seems better in opposite spin, and both seems to struggle against nL.

Mostly my testing is about how much of a defensive upgrade Geist Fafnir is compared to Drain. I don't expect people to use Atomic since Destroy has more LAD without losing as much defense. Though Atomic is still an option since it wins helps win same spin.

I don't think the slight difference in same spin between Drain and Geist will really matter of Geist can repel attacks (mostly from right spin) better.

I will also redo my nL vs gF test, using Jolt instead of Xtreme'. For whatever reason, I'm poor at launching X' on left spin for whatever reason, and I seem to do better with Jolt. I felt like I was doing fine for this test, but since you're getting different results I'll try again. (Hopefully Angle's burst resistance helps enough.)
(Jul. 01, 2020  7:20 PM)AirKingNeo Wrote: I don't think the slight difference in same spin between Drain and Geist will really matter of Geist can repel attacks (mostly from right ....
Good point, but I do want to point out what I am trying to show is that dF is showing better stamina in either spin direction in my informal quick look.

Also, for me personally, Atomic is an upgrade to Ds for defense.
In general, my first impression is that Geist Fafnir isn't concerning. It can be useful, but it seems like no matter what setup you choose, you're going to be sacrificing something to gain something. Using Destroy on it might increase opposite spin performance against low LAD opponents and increase its defensive potential, but you're sacrificing same spin performance and performance against high LAD opponents.

And as Shindog demonstrated, despite the weight advantage even Drain Fafnir seems to have an edge against it for same spin stamina.

It doesn't seem to me like it excels in any particular category above everything else.

(Jul. 01, 2020  7:20 PM)AirKingNeo Wrote: I don't own Hunter' and I do not see the merit of using Turn.Hn' on nL in the first place. Does this combo do anything in particular?

Turn is relatively heavy for a Frame and Hunter' is a very controllable attack Driver. nL is good in general and can be used on many things, but this setup is what I last used in 2019 before nL was outclassed by Zwei. I liked it back then.
(Jul. 01, 2020  9:00 PM)Kei Wrote: In general, my first impression is that Geist Fafnir isn't concerning. It can be useful, but it seems like no matter what setup you choose, you're going to be sacrificing something to gain something. Using Destroy on it might increase opposite spin performance against low LAD opponents and increase its defensive potential, but you're sacrificing same spin performance and performance against high LAD opponents.

And as Shindog demonstrated, despite the weight advantage even Drain Fafnir seems to have an edge against it for same spin stamina.

It doesn't seem to me like it excels in any particular category above everything else.

Destroy has the highest LAD outside of Xtend+ and Bearing, so you wouldn't lose performance against high LAD opponents (since right spin Destroy is risky and right spin Bearing is super risk, and you win in LAD against Eternal). Destroy also might let you burst same spin opponents using Bearing.

The same spin performance is a loss though. You likely lose to Orbit, Atomic, and Eternal combos.

My opinion is that left spin LAD based combos should go even against right spin attack (Dragoon F losing to right spin attack is part of what keeps Classic a balanced format), so my main concern was Geist improves left spin LAD combos ability to repel right spin attackers. I should also do a test to see how Drain Fafnir on the same combo would hold up to a right spin attack for comparison.
(Jul. 01, 2020  5:53 PM)BladerUmar Wrote: try geist 0 and nothing

He is trying to make a meta combo nothing is not a meta part in the beyblade world. The nothing driver is nothing compared to dash drivers
How about Geist Fafnir ignition’ or hybrid even 00 wall/vanguard bearing
(Jul. 02, 2020  2:51 PM)ShaDowTr3x Wrote: How about Geist Fafnir ignition’ or hybrid even 00 wall/vanguard bearing

This is for Limited, so Ignition’, Hybrid, and Vanguard are all banned. Please read the threads here, understand what they’re about, and then maybe post, but only if you have something to say that’s relevant to the thread. Most of your posts do not do that.
(Jul. 02, 2020  2:55 PM)CheetoBlader Wrote:
(Jul. 02, 2020  2:51 PM)ShaDowTr3x Wrote: How about Geist Fafnir ignition’ or hybrid even 00 wall/vanguard bearing

This is for Limited, so Ignition’, Hybrid, and Vanguard are all banned. Please read the threads here, understand what they’re about, and then maybe post, but only if you have something to say that’s relevant to the thread. Most of your posts do not do that.

he's new here i think so i don't think he knows about limited yet
(Jul. 02, 2020  2:57 PM)William Cochran Wrote:
(Jul. 02, 2020  2:55 PM)CheetoBlader Wrote: This is for Limited, so Ignition’, Hybrid, and Vanguard are all banned. Please read the threads here, understand what they’re about, and then maybe post, but only if you have something to say that’s relevant to the thread. Most of your posts do not do that.

he's new here i think so i don't knows about limited yet

It’s on the front page, and he’s posted in it’s thread. I think he does.
what do you think happens when it's Geist Fafnir Outer Bearing?
Geist Fafnir is strong, make no mistake about it. It makes certain matchups way closer than it probably should, but by no means is it unbeatable.

To borrow your benchmark combo for some tests:

Quote:Twin Nemesis Outer Eternal vs LC Geist Fafnir 0Glaive Destroy
Burst Standard BeyStadium - BeyLauncher LR - tN always launched first

tN: 12 wins (12 OS, 0 KO, 0 BF) -- 60% win rate
gF: 8 wins (1 OS, 7 KO, 0 BF) -- 40% win rate

This works for your right spin matchup. The LAD battle could be tight, but tN consistently won this matchup, even when re-running it for a further 10 matches (as I initially only did 10 rather than 20).

-------------------------------
MGC Arc Bahamut 7Bump Atomic vs LC Geist Fafnir 0Glaive Destroy
Burst Standard BeyStadium - Long BeyLauncher LR - aB always launched first

aB: 9 wins (9 OS, 0 KO, 0 BF) -- 90.00% win rate
gF: 1 wins (0 OS, 1 KO, 0 BF) -- 10.00% win rate

Fairly standard. Means there's a left-spin defensive option that gF can't thrive off of. aB was popular back in the God era as well, and I'd expect it'll be a viable option in Limited too.

------------------------------

Nightmare Longinus Turn Xtreme' vs LC Geist Fafnir 0Glaive Destroy
Burst Standard BeyStadium - Long BeyLauncher LR - gF always launched first

nL: 4 wins (1 OS, 3 KO, 0 BF) -- 40.00% win rate
gF: 6 wins (3 OS, 0 KO, 3 BF) -- 60.00% win rate

I wanted to test this one because yes, I fully expect this is a matchup that nL won't win (though mine is apparently super Bursty). And that's absolutely fine by me, it's good to have counters to nL as I expect it'll be highly used in this format.

------------------------------

Sieg Xcalibur 00Dagger Xtreme' vs LC Geist Fafnir 0Glaive Destroy
Burst Standard BeyStadium - BeyLauncher LR - gF always launched first

sX: 4 wins (0 OS, 3 KO, 1 BF) -- 40.00% win rate
gF: 6 wins (6 OS, 0 KO, 0 BF) -- 60.00% win rate

Same situation here. sX didn't do as much as I'd like, but it had some potential. It suffers from the opposite spin matchup and just doesn't carry the needed weight to land the key hits it needs to.

------------------------------

Shadow Orichalcum Outer Absorb vs LC Geist Fafnir 0Glaive Destroy
Burst Standard BeyStadium - BeyLauncher LR - sO always launched first

sO: 9 wins (9 OS, 0 KO, 0 BF) -- 90.00% win rate
gF: 1 wins (0 OS, 1 KO, 0 BF) -- 10.00% win rate

Shadow Orichalcum was robbed of it's time in the spotlight during the God era because there just wasn't a huge selection of stuff to use it on. In constrast to it's more coveted brother, Shadow is much smoother and feels more akin to a thicker D2 at times. Absorb helped with winning the LAD battle and a nice counter for an opposite-spin matchup.

Honestly, I feel like gF would thrive more off of being used as an attacker on Ultimate Reboot more than anything else. It's KO potential can be unexpectedly crazy at times, while it's stamina game is definitely weaker than you would get from using dF instead. gF definitely has a place in the format, but it's not a universal "spam this to win" crazy Layer.

It's a part to certainly keep an eye on and a contender for top-tier, but the metagame will have to evolve and adapt to these new scenarios like gF. This is a brand new format featuring a metagame that isn't clear-cut and solved, and there's always something new that can emerge; people may need to think out of the box to deal with some bigger threats, and even accept that there's no one good combo for the format; you'll need to gather information and adapt during your events to excel.
Now here’s something I found interesting with bL Vs gF

bL.7U.Z’ VS gF.0P.At
Alt. launching with ties redone
bL: 7 wins (1 KO, 1 BF & 5 OS)
gF: 3 wins ( 2 KO, 1 OS)

gF was getting destabilized worse than mG on revolve and that’s saying something as it was on At. It only one once by OS due to bL scraping. The 2 KOs aren’t overly impressive as there was quite a bit of recoil. Hope this test helps a bit Grin!
(Jul. 02, 2020  4:47 PM)~Mana~ Wrote: Geist Fafnir is strong, make no mistake about it. It makes certain matchups way closer than it probably should, but by no means is it unbeatable.

To borrow your benchmark combo for some tests: ...

Honestly, I feel like gF would thrive more off of being used as an attacker on Ultimate Reboot more than anything else. It's KO potential can be unexpectedly crazy at times, while it's stamina game is definitely weaker than you would get from using dF instead. gF definitely has a place in the format, but it's not a universal "spam this to win" crazy Layer.

It's a part to certainly keep an eye on and a contender for top-tier, but the metagame will have to evolve and adapt to these new scenarios like gF. This is a brand new format featuring a metagame that isn't clear-cut and solved, and there's always something new that can emerge; people may need to think out of the box to deal with some bigger threats, and even accept that there's no one good combo for the format; you'll need to gather information and adapt during your events to excel.

I'm not sure how Outer Et/Ab beats 0G.Ds in LAD since Ds is known for having more LAD than those two driver, but perhaps there's a better frame I should be using instead of Glaive? (There is also the Universe driver to look out for. Some light, quick testing from me showed it had less LAD than Destroy but pretty similar and it sometimes won.)

Also its questionable how meta viable those combos that can beat it will be. Are right spin LAD beys a viable option? They, in theory, lose to almost all same spin matchups and its unsure if they can survive facing Nightmare Longinus. As for left spin Atomic beys that beat gF.0G.Ds, the Atomic combo would probably be using Geist Fafnir since Arc Bahamut bursts should burst rather easily into nL (and I'm not sure how Drain Fafnir on Atomic goes against nL).

I can't see how you'd use Geist Fafnir on Ultimate Reboot for attack. If you wanted attack, use Nightmare Longinus. If you wanted LAD, use a Destroy combo. Its much more defensive of a layer than Drain Fafnir, so its very difficult for attack types from both spin directions to deal with it. One of the things that made God such a balanced era (and also why Classic is fairly balanced) is that left spin LAD beys could be beaten by right spin attack, and your own test results show that as being a winning matchup for gF from attack types of both spin directions.

In my next post I'm going to show results of redoing gF vs nL testing (because I launch Jolt better than Xtreme in left spin, for some reason) and then using both nL and tN against dF for comparison to show how much of a defensive improve gF is or isn't.
Geist Fafnir 0 Glaive Octa is a decent combo to use.
Some more testing to redo my Geist Fafnir vs Nightmare Longinus battle using Jolt instead of Xtreme' and testing both of the attack types I used against Drain Fafnir for comparison. The reason I'm redoing the test with Jolt is because I seem to launch Jolt much better in left spin than I can Xtreme. I don't own Jolt', so I used Jolt instead.

Geist Fafnir.0Glaive.Destroy vs Nightmare Longinus.Angle.Jolt
nL launched second, always.
gF.0G.Ds - 13 wins (1 Burst Finish, Knockout, 12 Spin finish) (65% winrate)
nL.angle.Jl - 7 wins (2 Burst Finish, 2 Knockout, 3 Spin Finish) (35% winrate)
Draws: 0

And here are my comparison tests using Nightmare Longinus and Twin Nemesis against Drain Fafnir.0Glaive.Destroy to see how much of a defensive improvement Geist Fafnir is:

Drain Fafnir.0Glaive.Destroy vs Nightmare Longinus.Angle.Jolt
nL launched second, always.
dF.0G.Ds - 2 wins (2 Spin finish) (20% winrate)
nL.angle.Jl - 8 wins (6 Burst Finish, 2 Knockout, Spin Finish) (80% winrate)
Draws: 0

Drain Fafnir.0Glaive.Destroy vs MGC Twin Nemesis.00Bump.Xtreme'
nL launched second, always.
dF.0G.Ds - 10 wins (1 Knockout, 9 Spin finish) (50% winrate)
MGC tN.00B.X'- 10 wins (5 Burst Finish, 5 Knockout, Spin Finish) (50% winrate)
Draws: 1 (Double Burst)



Switching to Jolt barely improved how well I did against Geist Fafnir, and it seems like Geist is a massive improvement over Drain when it comes to defensive qualities. I think Geist Fafnir is hands down the best left spin non-attack layer in the format as it repels attacks better than the rest, even if it can be beaten in same spin by the others, since you could just beat gF on Ds using gF on At while still getting the defensive improvements.

LAD beys shouldn't be beating attack types. God was a balanced era because left spin LAD beys were not overpowered since they could be beaten with right spin attack. I don't believe Geist is keeping in line with that philosophy and bringing the meta towards what standard has. I think Burst Classic does it right with DGF.Y.Ab being beaten by right spin attack, so having right attack go even with dF.0G.Ds like my test shows seems to be a good middle ground that takes into account the fact there are more left spin options.
(Jul. 03, 2020  1:23 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote: God was a balanced era because left spin LAD beys were not overpowered since they could be beaten with right spin attack.

What match ups are you thinking about here specifically? Attack wasn't great in general during the God Layer System era. Legend Spriggan was good, but I'm not sure it was particularly strong against left-spin stamina/defense types while in right-spin.

In general, when all else is equal in terms of things like weight, attack typically performs better against the same spin direction rather than the opposite spin direction. It's is nice when that deficiency can be overcome (as it can be with things like Judgement in recent times).

While I haven't tested gF myself in the context of Burst Limited, based on some of ~Mana~'s tests this already seems to be true for things like Sieg Xcalibur against it. 40% is pretty good considering it's opposite spin direction.

Geist Fafnir will certainly have a place in the format, but whether it's taking away all other left-spin options entirely or not or lowering the viability of attack types significantly remains to be seen.

Thank you for continuing to post test results, though! I see where you're coming from, but I'm not quite there yet with you.
Geist Fafnir is good for LAD against rights, however, this means the opposite of left spins being not used entirely. The usage of Geist Fafnir should bring back other left spins to compete with it since it’s stamina against same spin direction beys seems to be its only weakness because of it layers wide circumference.
(Jul. 03, 2020  7:03 PM)Kei Wrote:
(Jul. 03, 2020  1:23 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote: God was a balanced era because left spin LAD beys were not overpowered since they could be beaten with right spin attack.

What match ups are you thinking about here specifically? Attack wasn't great in general during the God Layer System era. Legend Spriggan was good, but I'm not sure it was particularly strong against left-spin stamina/defense types while in right-spin.

In general, when all else is equal in terms of things like weight, attack typically performs better against the same spin direction rather than the opposite spin direction. It's is nice when that deficiency can be overcome (as it can be with things like Judgement in recent times).

While I haven't tested gF myself in the context of Burst Limited, based on some of ~Mana~'s tests this already seems to be true for things like Sieg Xcalibur against it. 40% is pretty good considering it's opposite spin direction.

Geist Fafnir will certainly have a place in the format, but whether it's taking away all other left-spin options entirely or not or lowering the viability of attack types significantly remains to be seen.

Thank you for continuing to post test results, though! I see where you're coming from, but I'm not quite there yet with you.

I'm talking about late god with Sieg Xcalibur, Nightmare Longinus, and Twin Nemesis and mG being banned.

Judgement was a good inclusion to make attack powerful in standard when it was released, but the issue with the powercreep that occurred in standard is that it make defense, notably right spin defense, not an option. This is why I hold Burst Classic as a standard to emulate, but we have to account for the fact that Burst Limited has left spin attack as an option, which is why I prefer the 50/50 matchup my test of Drain Fafnir vs Twin Nemesis showed.

Mana's tests are 10 battles instead of 20, and my own test of tN vs gF has a 30% winrate. In addition, Nightmare Longinus does not seem to do well into a Geist Fafnir either, despite that being a LAD combo, which leaves Geist lacking counters. More prevalence to left spin Atomic combos makes right spin attack less viable and right spin LAD combos lose to anything else in right spin and possibly Nightmare Longinus.

Really its just a discussion on how we think the meta should be. This is the framework I would use:

Which means I should get some results for Geist Fafnir on Atomic vs nL and tN. and Drain Fafnir vs nL and tN for comparison.
AirKingNeo you have mentioned several times that classic is nicely balanced.  Does that fit into your framework?  In my opinion, left spin LAD in classic doesn’t fit your frame work that well.  It does not consistently beat right spin stamina in my experience and right spin staller aren’t helpless against it at all.  This is mostly because dragoons is so inconsistent. Is there a format in beyblade’s history that fits your framework we can look at?  Any one point in history would be a nice example.  Or this is the late god period you were talking about?  The period before Spriggan requiem?  Even then I am not sure if it really fits the frame work.

Also, beating something with attack really has a lot to do with skill or maybe a lot of luck. Can we perfectly balance a format for attack despite varying skill levels?  Who or  what should we use as the barometer for attack competency?
(Jul. 03, 2020  10:51 PM)Shindog Wrote: AirKingNeo you have mentioned several times that classic is nicely balanced.  Does that fit into your framework?  In my opinion, left spin LAD in classic doesn’t fit your frame work that well.  It does not consistently beat right spin stamina in my experience and right spin staller aren’t helpless against it at all.  This is mostly because dragoons is so inconsistent. Is there a format in beyblade’s history that fits your framework we can look at?  Any one point in history would be a nice example.  Or this is the late god period you were talking about?  The period before Spriggan requiem?  Even then I am not sure if it really fits the frame work.

Also, beating something with attack really has a lot to do with skill or maybe a lot of luck. Can we perfectly balance a format for attack despite varying skill levels?  Who or  what should we use as the barometer for attack competency?

That framework would not be for Classic. Classic doesn't have left attack (or even left same spin) to account for. So of course things will be different (Dragoon F is very burstable from right spin offense, so of course the story is different with tornado stallers), but I do see it consistently beat right spin stam.

I don't know about any format that does it exactly; its just about how I envision Burst Limited. It also won't be 100% accurate or anything; certain driver variation could change a matchup. I could also just have certain points wrong though I mostly want the interactions between left and right spin I outlined. One thing that doesn't match up is Drain Fafnir on Atomic still hard loses to nL (as I will show below).

As for the attack question, I don't know how to answer it. I think attack should be super meta relevant since it takes a lot of skill (and I think Geist Fafnir would shift the meta in a more defensive direction, but probably wouldn't kill attack), but I don't know how one should account for skill when balancing exactly.





As for my testing, I did some testing using both Geist and Drain Fafnir on Atomic against Nightmare Longinus and Twin Nemesis. Drain Fafnir is for comparison. (Once again, I do not own Jolt' so I've settled for Jolt.)

vs Nightmare Longinus (these were really onesided)

Geist Fafnir.0Proof.Atomic vs Nightmare Longinus.Angle.Jolt
nL was always launched 2nd.
gF.0P.At - 8 wins (1 Knockout, 7 Spin Finish) (80% winrate)
nL.angle.Jl - 2 wins (2 Knockouts) (20% winrate)
Draws: 0

Drain Fafnir.0Proof.Atomic vs Nightmare Longinus.Angle.Jolt
nL was always launched 2nd.
dF.0P.At - 2 wins (2 Spin Finish) (20% winrate)
nL.angle.Jl - 8 wins (6 Burst Finish, 2 Knockout) (80% winrate)
Draws: 0

vs Twin Nemesis (soft launching left spin is strong, wow)

Geist Fafnir.0Proof.Atomic vs MGC Twin Nemesis.00Bump.Xtreme'
nL was always launched 2nd.
gF.0P.At - 8 wins (8 Spin Finish) (80% winrate)
MGC tN.00B.X' - 2 wins (1 Burst Finish, 1 Knockout) (20% winrate)
Draws: 0

Drain Fafnir.0Proof.Atomic vs MGC Twin Nemesis.00Bump.Xtreme'
nL was always launched 2nd.
dF.0P.At - 11 wins (11 Spin Finish) (73.33% winrate)
MGC tN.00B.X' - 4 wins (1 Burst Finish, 3 Knockouts) (26.67% winrate)
Draws: 0

I also did some LAD testing since I was curious to see if any LAD set up for Destroy on Geist Fafnir could beat something right spin on Outer Eternal. It seems like I could not, so Geist Fafnir seems to have not so great LAD as a layer.

Geist Fafnir isn't super overpowered or anything, but it does seem like a defensive step for left spin. I personally don't like it as I prefer for attack based metas, but it probably won't kill attack as a type. The only super concerning thing is that Geist can't be beaten by Nightmare Longinus.
(Dragoon F is very burstable from right spin offense, so of course the story is different with tornado stallers), but I do see it consistently beat right spin stam.

I really don’t see this personally (the part about consistently beating right spin stamina) 

https://youtu.be/DraNLMBD9FY 


https://youtu.be/HPkCMi8sDG0


Dragoon F.Y.Ab-S loses to D.S.R and DZF.S.Ab-S

(Yesterday  5:10 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote:  The only super concerning thing is that Geist can't be beaten by Nightmare Longinus.


I feel that it can be equally concerning if left spin “defense“ has nothing that can stand up to Nightmare Longinus.  From you test it seems like dF doesn’t stand much of a chance I think.