(Jul. 01, 2020  1:51 AM)CheetoBlader Wrote: Try using Twin Nemesis on Ultimate Reboot’ or Destroy. And for Nightmare Longinus, try Turn and Hunter’ please.

(Jul. 01, 2020  3:47 AM)Shindog Wrote: AirKingNeo thank you for the tests!  I did a little bit of recording to help with any future testing you may want to try with gF.  I think your tests showed gF defensive capabilities so I just recorded a little bit to remind myself about gF’s stamina.  I have tested gF in the recent past but did not record.  I think recording can sometimes show us things the numbers can’t.  However, these are just quick looks and not to be mistaken for formal testing .

1) opp spin capability of  gF

https://youtu.be/EuvjVYfulPw

Seems like gF can only hope to draw with aC or be defeated by aC

2) same spin capability of gF

https://youtu.be/mLdnlwlQOCE

Seems like a bit of a toss up with possibly dF having the slight edge?  Of course with so few rounds this doesn’t mean much.  But I don’t think gF is a stamina power house? 

3) I also just recorded a few rounds of nL.α.X’ vs gF.0G.Ds. I launched the beys together and ofc that can change things.  But nL did pretty well for me. This is also to remind myself what this match up was like for me. 

https://youtu.be/zGIFU7Xy6rk

Edit:
Found some time to complete my current thought on gF.

4) just 3 rounds of aC.0P.At vs dF.0P.At. I think even this is enough to show what I am trying to say as in round one it was a clear win for dF, round 2 a clear win for aC, and round 3 looks like a draw or at least bet close.  gF with the same set up was unable to win any rounds against this same aC combo.

https://youtu.be/Hpr6pDbl2n4


The conclusion for me personally is that gF isn’t so clearly better than dF, a god layer. This is only at this present time of course. Ad more testing and results come in, my impression on gF may certainly change. dF seems to have about the same stamina as gF, it  seems better in opposite spin, and both seems to struggle against nL.

(Jul. 01, 2020  7:20 PM)AirKingNeo Wrote: I don't think the slight difference in same spin between Drain and Geist will really matter of Geist can repel attacks (mostly from right ....

(Jul. 01, 2020  7:20 PM)AirKingNeo Wrote: I don't own Hunter' and I do not see the merit of using Turn.Hn' on nL in the first place. Does this combo do anything in particular?

(Jul. 01, 2020  9:00 PM)Kei Wrote: In general, my first impression is that Geist Fafnir isn't concerning. It can be useful, but it seems like no matter what setup you choose, you're going to be sacrificing something to gain something. Using Destroy on it might increase opposite spin performance against low LAD opponents and increase its defensive potential, but you're sacrificing same spin performance and performance against high LAD opponents.

And as Shindog demonstrated, despite the weight advantage even Drain Fafnir seems to have an edge against it for same spin stamina.

It doesn't seem to me like it excels in any particular category above everything else.

(Jul. 01, 2020  5:53 PM)BladerUmar Wrote: try geist 0 and nothing

(Jul. 02, 2020  2:51 PM)ShaDowTr3x Wrote: How about Geist Fafnir ignition’ or hybrid even 00 wall/vanguard bearing

(Jul. 02, 2020  2:55 PM)CheetoBlader Wrote:

(Jul. 02, 2020  2:51 PM)ShaDowTr3x Wrote: How about Geist Fafnir ignition’ or hybrid even 00 wall/vanguard bearing

This is for Limited, so Ignition’, Hybrid, and Vanguard are all banned. Please read the threads here, understand what they’re about, and then maybe post, but only if you have something to say that’s relevant to the thread. Most of your posts do not do that.

(Jul. 02, 2020  2:57 PM)William Cochran Wrote:

(Jul. 02, 2020  2:55 PM)CheetoBlader Wrote: This is for Limited, so Ignition’, Hybrid, and Vanguard are all banned. Please read the threads here, understand what they’re about, and then maybe post, but only if you have something to say that’s relevant to the thread. Most of your posts do not do that.

he's new here i think so i don't knows about limited yet

Quote:Twin Nemesis Outer Eternal vs LC Geist Fafnir 0Glaive Destroy
Burst Standard BeyStadium - BeyLauncher LR - tN always launched first

tN: 12 wins (12 OS, 0 KO, 0 BF) -- 60% win rate
gF: 8 wins (1 OS, 7 KO, 0 BF) -- 40% win rate

This works for your right spin matchup. The LAD battle could be tight, but tN consistently won this matchup, even when re-running it for a further 10 matches (as I initially only did 10 rather than 20).

-------------------------------
MGC Arc Bahamut 7Bump Atomic vs LC Geist Fafnir 0Glaive Destroy
Burst Standard BeyStadium - Long BeyLauncher LR - aB always launched first

aB: 9 wins (9 OS, 0 KO, 0 BF) -- 90.00% win rate
gF: 1 wins (0 OS, 1 KO, 0 BF) -- 10.00% win rate

Fairly standard. Means there's a left-spin defensive option that gF can't thrive off of. aB was popular back in the God era as well, and I'd expect it'll be a viable option in Limited too.

------------------------------

Nightmare Longinus Turn Xtreme' vs LC Geist Fafnir 0Glaive Destroy
Burst Standard BeyStadium - Long BeyLauncher LR - gF always launched first

nL: 4 wins (1 OS, 3 KO, 0 BF) -- 40.00% win rate
gF: 6 wins (3 OS, 0 KO, 3 BF) -- 60.00% win rate

I wanted to test this one because yes, I fully expect this is a matchup that nL won't win (though mine is apparently super Bursty). And that's absolutely fine by me, it's good to have counters to nL as I expect it'll be highly used in this format.

------------------------------

Sieg Xcalibur 00Dagger Xtreme' vs LC Geist Fafnir 0Glaive Destroy
Burst Standard BeyStadium - BeyLauncher LR - gF always launched first

sX: 4 wins (0 OS, 3 KO, 1 BF) -- 40.00% win rate
gF: 6 wins (6 OS, 0 KO, 0 BF) -- 60.00% win rate

Same situation here. sX didn't do as much as I'd like, but it had some potential. It suffers from the opposite spin matchup and just doesn't carry the needed weight to land the key hits it needs to.

------------------------------

Shadow Orichalcum Outer Absorb vs LC Geist Fafnir 0Glaive Destroy
Burst Standard BeyStadium - BeyLauncher LR - sO always launched first

sO: 9 wins (9 OS, 0 KO, 0 BF) -- 90.00% win rate
gF: 1 wins (0 OS, 1 KO, 0 BF) -- 10.00% win rate

Shadow Orichalcum was robbed of it's time in the spotlight during the God era because there just wasn't a huge selection of stuff to use it on. In constrast to it's more coveted brother, Shadow is much smoother and feels more akin to a thicker D2 at times. Absorb helped with winning the LAD battle and a nice counter for an opposite-spin matchup.

(Jul. 02, 2020  4:47 PM)~Mana~ Wrote: Geist Fafnir is strong, make no mistake about it. It makes certain matchups way closer than it probably should, but by no means is it unbeatable.

To borrow your benchmark combo for some tests: ...

Honestly, I feel like gF would thrive more off of being used as an attacker on Ultimate Reboot more than anything else. It's KO potential can be unexpectedly crazy at times, while it's stamina game is definitely weaker than you would get from using dF instead. gF definitely has a place in the format, but it's not a universal "spam this to win" crazy Layer.

It's a part to certainly keep an eye on and a contender for top-tier, but the metagame will have to evolve and adapt to these new scenarios like gF. This is a brand new format featuring a metagame that isn't clear-cut and solved, and there's always something new that can emerge; people may need to think out of the box to deal with some bigger threats, and even accept that there's no one good combo for the format; you'll need to gather information and adapt during your events to excel.

(Jul. 03, 2020  1:23 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote: God was a balanced era because left spin LAD beys were not overpowered since they could be beaten with right spin attack.

(Jul. 03, 2020  7:03 PM)Kei Wrote:

(Jul. 03, 2020  1:23 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote: God was a balanced era because left spin LAD beys were not overpowered since they could be beaten with right spin attack.

What match ups are you thinking about here specifically? Attack wasn't great in general during the God Layer System era. Legend Spriggan was good, but I'm not sure it was particularly strong against left-spin stamina/defense types while in right-spin.

In general, when all else is equal in terms of things like weight, attack typically performs better against the same spin direction rather than the opposite spin direction. It's is nice when that deficiency can be overcome (as it can be with things like Judgement in recent times).

While I haven't tested gF myself in the context of Burst Limited, based on some of ~Mana~'s tests this already seems to be true for things like Sieg Xcalibur against it. 40% is pretty good considering it's opposite spin direction.

Geist Fafnir will certainly have a place in the format, but whether it's taking away all other left-spin options entirely or not or lowering the viability of attack types significantly remains to be seen.

Thank you for continuing to post test results, though! I see where you're coming from, but I'm not quite there yet with you.

(Jul. 03, 2020  10:51 PM)Shindog Wrote: AirKingNeo you have mentioned several times that classic is nicely balanced.  Does that fit into your framework?  In my opinion, left spin LAD in classic doesn’t fit your frame work that well.  It does not consistently beat right spin stamina in my experience and right spin staller aren’t helpless against it at all.  This is mostly because dragoons is so inconsistent. Is there a format in beyblade’s history that fits your framework we can look at?  Any one point in history would be a nice example.  Or this is the late god period you were talking about?  The period before Spriggan requiem?  Even then I am not sure if it really fits the frame work.

Also, beating something with attack really has a lot to do with skill or maybe a lot of luck. Can we perfectly balance a format for attack despite varying skill levels?  Who or  what should we use as the barometer for attack competency?

(Jul. 04, 2020  5:10 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote:  The only super concerning thing is that Geist can't be beaten by Nightmare Longinus.