So ok, this may sound bad, but just listen ok? I want the restriction on Sr/SrS3's spin direction change to be removed, with a couple things to make it fair. So in the current meta, it's based pretty much on attack, and even things like pP and hS are very risky these days, so I don't really think a god bey will cause that much trouble when it come to beating attack in both directions. A setup like 00W.Br for Hasbro and 00C.Xt+ for TT could be a problem, but I have a solution we'll get into later. It could be a good mixup on something like St At to beat worse stamina beys, so it could be a bit of a safe combo and on something like St Octa, it could work as a somewhat effective dual spin defense type, which may be good in the long run. Plus, this could definitely help the Hasbro meta with the crisis it's currently going through without having to ban some TT beys. Now, do so think ChoS should also have the restriction removed? Not sure, if someone can tell me with sufficient evidence that it won't Shrek the meta, be my guest, but I think this may be enough. Also, just to mention, it's a god layer, so it's 3 generations of outclassed and is basically useless in the meta, so just like lS/lS3, I think it should be fine being able to switch spin directions. Now, with the argument of "you can just use 00W.Br and just break the meta.", I have a very simple solution:Ban Br on the Hasbro one, ban Br and Xt+ on TT, and ban all the Br frames for both of them. Or just the first two parts or just the last part (plus the Xt+ ban as well). But I think if you take this into consideration, we could get the layer restriction removed. Thanks for reading, this should be seen by ~Mana~, Kei, Wombat, and OldSchool™ There's probably more, but that's all I could think of. Thanks!

Counter idea: ban mid-match direction switching on all layers, vastly simplifying the rules and avoiding the need for complicated workarounds.

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Counter idea: ban mid-match direction switching on all layers, vastly simplifying the rules and avoiding the need for complicated workarounds.

Why? You seem to make your decisions based on convenience. I made this thread to remove a limitation on an outdated part, and your argument is that it's too complicated, wasn't that why you were against the turbo exclusive unban?

Counter idea: ban mid-match direction switching on all layers, vastly simplifying the rules and avoiding the need for complicated workarounds.

Why? You seem to make your decisions based on convenience. I made this thread to remove a limitation on an outdated part, and your argument is that it's too complicated, wasn't that why you were against the turbo exclusive unban?

Don't put words in my mouth, and definitely don't propose allowing Sr/Sr3 direction switching without testing to back it up.

These layers might be light like B3, but B3 still wins sometimes. If you allow mid-round direction switching, even with partial part bans, S3 may see a ton of use and beat a lot of current beys.

And if you allow direction switching on them except you forbid their use with certain tips/discs/frames, that increases the complexity of the rules for those parts. And as Every Single Tournament has demonstrated, most bladers are incapable of reading and understanding the rules. So I'm generally against complicated exceptions and complicated ban criteria. Plus, you haven't tested this.

Which is why my idea was to ban all direction switching mid-match.

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Why? You seem to make your decisions based on convenience. I made this thread to remove a limitation on an outdated part, and your argument is that it's too complicated, wasn't that why you were against the turbo exclusive unban?

Don't put words in my mouth, and definitely don't propose allowing Sr/Sr3 direction switching without testing to back it up.

These layers might be light like B3, but B3 still wins sometimes. If you allow mid-round direction switching, even with partial part bans, S3 may see a ton of use and beat a lot of current beys.

And if you allow direction switching on them except you forbid their use with certain tips/discs/frames, that increases the complexity of the rules for those parts. And as Every Single Tournament has demonstrated, most bladers are incapable of reading and understanding the rules. So I'm generally against complicated exceptions and complicated ban criteria. Plus, you haven't tested this.

Which is why my idea was to ban all direction switching mid-match.

M8, please tell me you know why B3 wins right?

Don't put words in my mouth, and definitely don't propose allowing Sr/Sr3 direction switching without testing to back it up.

These layers might be light like B3, but B3 still wins sometimes. If you allow mid-round direction switching, even with partial part bans, S3 may see a ton of use and beat a lot of current beys.

And if you allow direction switching on them except you forbid their use with certain tips/discs/frames, that increases the complexity of the rules for those parts. And as Every Single Tournament has demonstrated, most bladers are incapable of reading and understanding the rules. So I'm generally against complicated exceptions and complicated ban criteria. Plus, you haven't tested this.

Which is why my idea was to ban all direction switching mid-match.

M8, please tell me you know why B3 wins right?

Why are you so hard-headed? B3 is nothing to scoff at, and any combos that ARE able to beat it are incredibly niche, and can be easily beaten by just about everything else in the meta. List off some "B3 counters", I'll list off everything they lose to.

Let's keep this civil, shall we.

I would tend to agree with DeceasedCrab; if anything it would probably be better to just make a decision one way or another as to whether spin direction switching should be legal or not in general for all Layers that allow it. They allow it in Japan. We only allow it for Legend Spriggan/Spryzen. Personally, I'd tend to lean towards just removing the lS exception and ban it for everything, to be honest.

There's always interesting exceptions we could come up with that might be fun for hardcore players, but the fact of the matter is that we also have to work to make organized play more accessible, refined, and easy to understand if we want to manage a united community open to everyone. We can't expect people to read through and fully understand unnecessary complex rules. Allowing spin direction switching for older parts like Sr or banning specific part combinations is a fun idea, but I think ultimately it just adds a layer of complexity that would make things harder for organizers, judges, and players to understand.

We've made some poor decisions in the past around things like this, but I think we can be better moving forward.

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M8, please tell me you know why B3 wins right?

Why are you so hard-headed? B3 is nothing to scoff at, and any combos that ARE able to beat it are incredibly niche, and can be easily beaten by just about everything else in the meta. List off some "B3 counters", I'll list off everything they lose to.

I'm, ok, that's not my point. My point is that B3 is only a good bey because of the 00W.Br combo and ones like it. I explicitly banned those sorts Opp spin setups to avoid a dual spin B3. And yeah, tell that niche thing to Judgement, Zwei, and Lord.

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Let's keep this civil, shall we.

I would tend to agree with DeceasedCrab; if anything it would probably be better to just make a decision one way or another as to whether spin direction switching should be legal or not in general for all Layers that allow it. They allow it in Japan. We only allow it for Legend Spriggan/Spryzen. Personally, I'd tend to lean towards just removing the lS exception and ban it for everything, to be honest.

There's always interesting exceptions we could come up with that might be fun for hardcore players, but the fact of the matter is that we also have to work to make organized play more accessible, refined, and easy to understand if we want to manage a united community open to everyone. We can't expect people to read through and fully understand unnecessary complex rules. Allowing spin direction switching for older parts like Sr or banning specific part combinations is a fun idea, but I think ultimately it just adds a layer of complexity that would make things harder for organizers, judges, and players to understand.

We've made some poor decisions in the past around things like this, but I think we can be better moving forward.

That's fair, I guess, but it just kinda sucks that even a bey as outclassed as Sr can't have a restriction taken off of it. Thanks for your input.

“And yeah, tell that niche thing to Judgement, Zwei, and Lord.”


bladekid, add Knockout to that list as well.

Honestly, I want to see what happens if we do this.

Why are you so hard-headed? B3 is nothing to scoff at, and any combos that ARE able to beat it are incredibly niche, and can be easily beaten by just about everything else in the meta. List off some "B3 counters", I'll list off everything they lose to.

I'm, ok, that's not my point. My point is that B3 is only a good bey because of the 00W.Br combo and ones like it. I explicitly banned those sorts Opp spin setups to avoid a dual spin B3. And yeah, tell that niche thing to Judgement, Zwei, and Lord.

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Let's keep this civil, shall we.

I would tend to agree with DeceasedCrab; if anything it would probably be better to just make a decision one way or another as to whether spin direction switching should be legal or not in general for all Layers that allow it. They allow it in Japan. We only allow it for Legend Spriggan/Spryzen. Personally, I'd tend to lean towards just removing the lS exception and ban it for everything, to be honest.

There's always interesting exceptions we could come up with that might be fun for hardcore players, but the fact of the matter is that we also have to work to make organized play more accessible, refined, and easy to understand if we want to manage a united community open to everyone. We can't expect people to read through and fully understand unnecessary complex rules. Allowing spin direction switching for older parts like Sr or banning specific part combinations is a fun idea, but I think ultimately it just adds a layer of complexity that would make things harder for organizers, judges, and players to understand.

We've made some poor decisions in the past around things like this, but I think we can be better moving forward.

That's fair, I guess, but it just kinda sucks that even a bey as outclassed as Sr can't have a restriction taken off of it. Thanks for your input.

Judgement, Zwei, and Lord are incapable of coming anywhere near bursting B3, and obviously they can't outspin it.

So, I'm going to assume you're talking about ring-out combos, which don't work since A: trying to score a K.O. is both risky and unreliable, and B: K.O.s are worth only one point in the early/mid stages of a tournament. Ultimately making them an unreliable way of scoring minimal points against an opponent who has every advantage against you, and will slowly rack up more points than you have. For every two points they score, you MIGHT score one.

I'm, ok, that's not my point. My point is that B3 is only a good bey because of the 00W.Br combo and ones like it. I explicitly banned those sorts Opp spin setups to avoid a dual spin B3. And yeah, tell that niche thing to Judgement, Zwei, and Lord.

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That's fair, I guess, but it just kinda sucks that even a bey as outclassed as Sr can't have a restriction taken off of it. Thanks for your input.

Judgement, Zwei, and Lord are incapable of coming anywhere near bursting B3, and obviously they can't outspin it.

So, I'm going to assume you're talking about ring-out combos, which don't work since A: trying to score a K.O. is both risky and unreliable, and B: K.O.s are worth only one point in the early/mid stages of a tournament. Ultimately making them an unreliable way of scoring minimal points against an opponent who has every advantage against you, and will slowly rack up more points than you have. For every two points they score, you MIGHT score one.

Lord can definitely outspin Balkesh, since it weighs like 10 more grams and has some metal with it. B3 is not OP anymore, and lots of stamina combos could beat it. People use it because it's very hard to burst and KO.

I'm, ok, that's not my point. My point is that B3 is only a good bey because of the 00W.Br combo and ones like it. I explicitly banned those sorts Opp spin setups to avoid a dual spin B3. And yeah, tell that niche thing to Judgement, Zwei, and Lord.

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That's fair, I guess, but it just kinda sucks that even a bey as outclassed as Sr can't have a restriction taken off of it. Thanks for your input.

Judgement, Zwei, and Lord are incapable of coming anywhere near bursting B3, and obviously they can't outspin it.

So, I'm going to assume you're talking about ring-out combos, which don't work since A: trying to score a K.O. is both risky and unreliable, and B: K.O.s are worth only one point in the early/mid stages of a tournament. Ultimately making them an unreliable way of scoring minimal points against an opponent who has every advantage against you, and will slowly rack up more points than you have. For every two points they score, you MIGHT score one.

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OOf didn't work. Just copy and paste it in your browser.

Judgement, Zwei, and Lord are incapable of coming anywhere near bursting B3, and obviously they can't outspin it.

So, I'm going to assume you're talking about ring-out combos, which don't work since A: trying to score a K.O. is both risky and unreliable, and B: K.O.s are worth only one point in the early/mid stages of a tournament. Ultimately making them an unreliable way of scoring minimal points against an opponent who has every advantage against you, and will slowly rack up more points than you have. For every two points they score, you MIGHT score one.

Lord can definitely outspin Balkesh, since it weighs like 10 more grams and has some metal with it. B3 is not OP anymore, and lots of stamina combos could beat it. People use it because it's very hard to burst and KO.

Well, not exactly. I use balkesh a lot in tournaments, and lots of things can outspin Balkesh in same spin because it's so light. Pretty much nothing can outspin Balkesh in opposite spin on a good hasbro bearing. My balkesh can outspin perfect phoenix Xt+ and lord on bearing. Balkesh's burst resistance is great for opposite spin against combos like judgement and lord. But I have found that Zwei can burst it relatively easily when you use a sliding shoot.

Judgement, Zwei, and Lord are incapable of coming anywhere near bursting B3, and obviously they can't outspin it.

So, I'm going to assume you're talking about ring-out combos, which don't work since A: trying to score a K.O. is both risky and unreliable, and B: K.O.s are worth only one point in the early/mid stages of a tournament. Ultimately making them an unreliable way of scoring minimal points against an opponent who has every advantage against you, and will slowly rack up more points than you have. For every two points they score, you MIGHT score one.

Zwei is incredibly heavy (comparative to B3). The weight difference allows it to have incredible stamina despite being an attack type.

During battles, contact against B3 easily sends the latter flying due to the weight difference. Even if a KO is not achieved, the impact against the wall easily diminishes B3's remaining spin really quickly. One or two hits against the wall would allow Zwei, even on rubber attack tips, to outspin B3.Br.

I would suggest that you try Zwei out against B3 yourself to understand the situation better. Granted, not everyone can play attack types - inexperience players may not land a good attack pattern and fail to make good contact against the opponent's B3. In that case, using Orbit or Atomic on Zwei easily solves the problem.

Lord on left spin also easily outspins B3. Are you referring to using it on right spin?

Lord can definitely outspin Balkesh, since it weighs like 10 more grams and has some metal with it. B3 is not OP anymore, and lots of stamina combos could beat it. People use it because it's very hard to burst and KO.

Well, not exactly. I use balkesh a lot in tournaments, and lots of things can outspin Balkesh in same spin because it's so light. Pretty much nothing can outspin Balkesh in opposite spin on a good hasbro bearing. My balkesh can outspin perfect phoenix Xt+ and lord on bearing. Balkesh's burst resistance is great for opposite spin against combos like judgement and lord. But I have found that Zwei can burst it relatively easily when you use a sliding shoot.

I can understand outspinning Perfect Phoenix, but Balkesh can outspin Lord on bearing? Please test this with Lord (right spin) on 00W Bearing and Balkesh on 00W, since I have never seen Balkesh win against Lord on the same combo.

Judgement, Zwei, and Lord are incapable of coming anywhere near bursting B3, and obviously they can't outspin it.

So, I'm going to assume you're talking about ring-out combos, which don't work since A: trying to score a K.O. is both risky and unreliable, and B: K.O.s are worth only one point in the early/mid stages of a tournament. Ultimately making them an unreliable way of scoring minimal points against an opponent who has every advantage against you, and will slowly rack up more points than you have. For every two points they score, you MIGHT score one.

Lord can definitely outspin Balkesh, since it weighs like 10 more grams and has some metal with it. B3 is not OP anymore, and lots of stamina combos could beat it. People use it because it's very hard to burst and KO.

It's not even hard to KO. And btw, Lord is probably like 15 grams heavier lol.

Lord can definitely outspin Balkesh, since it weighs like 10 more grams and has some metal with it. B3 is not OP anymore, and lots of stamina combos could beat it. People use it because it's very hard to burst and KO.

It's not even hard to KO. And btw, Lord is probably like 15 grams heavier lol.

Sr3 can easily be burst on bearing by Judgement, lord, and Zwei. Plus, as bladekid mentioned, lord Spriggan is a lot heavier.

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It's not even hard to KO. And btw, Lord is probably like 15 grams heavier lol.

Sr3 can easily be burst on bearing by Judgement, lord, and Zwei. Plus, as bladekid mentioned, lord Spriggan is a lot heavier.

It's quite a bit harder to burst when it's able to freely change spin directions to make itself never clash head-on with attack types...

This seems like a fair idea

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Idk go to:https://www.shantihershenson.com/

Personally, I like this idea, as it buffs Hasbro (however slightly) in standard format, as TT attack types mostly dominate that format currently.

Personally, I like this idea, as it buffs Hasbro (however slightly) in standard format, as TT attack types mostly dominate that format currently.

Yeah same. I won't be the chose the wrong spin direction and you lose.

I'm, ok, that's not my point. My point is that B3 is only a good bey because of the 00W.Br combo and ones like it. I explicitly banned those sorts Opp spin setups to avoid a dual spin B3. And yeah, tell that niche thing to Judgement, Zwei, and Lord.

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That's fair, I guess, but it just kinda sucks that even a bey as outclassed as Sr can't have a restriction taken off of it. Thanks for your input.

Judgement, Zwei, and Lord are incapable of coming anywhere near bursting B3, and obviously they can't outspin it.

So, I'm going to assume you're talking about ring-out combos, which don't work since A: trying to score a K.O. is both risky and unreliable, and B: K.O.s are worth only one point in the early/mid stages of a tournament. Ultimately making them an unreliable way of scoring minimal points against an opponent who has every advantage against you, and will slowly rack up more points than you have. For every two points they score, you MIGHT score one.

Why can't Zwei or Lord outspin B3? I think it's pretty doable for them.

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Honestly we should just revive Hasbro format if we want to use Hasbeys again. Even if we follow through with this, I don't see either of them getting much use. Lord Spriggan literally functions as both on their respective top tier combos, and better.