Here’s my two cents, I say wait for actual data before making a descision. This reminds me of when hero came out in smash bros and everyone thought he was too op and should be banned, but here we are and hero isn’t banned because results showed he wasn’t that broken. Something may seem broken at first, but it may not be.
Should we ban the Karma disc?
(Oct. 06, 2021 3:52 AM)HakaishinLDrago Wrote:Who said I hate the meta? Cause I don’t. I love the meta cause I love beyblade. I just think it’s a bit unbalanced (The meta is a bit unbalanced)(Oct. 06, 2021 3:49 AM)TheRogueBlader Wrote: An aggressive drift would attack the attack type, slowing it down but weakening the attack type. This makes it less likely to self KO because the attack type is weaker and drift is slowed down enough, but that’s a strategy I should probably test out. I agree, coming up with strategies is a good way to beat it but all the stuff I’m saying about drift is actually what it does, I’m not making it more oppressive. It’s weaknesses: Knocking if off balance, high same spin stamina, opposite spin mirror matches, un-skilled player. I’m well aware of the weaknesses, but let’s not forget about the strengths: opposite spin king, high defense, good same spin, mobility makes it useful on things like rage to KO and equalize at the same time.
if you hate the meta this badly just go to burst classic or burst limited /hj
Just because its strengths are really good doesn't mean you can't use the weaknesses to your advantage
I know that, and for everyone who’s been seeing all my posts for drift is OP this that, that’s not at all what I’m saying. I hate the driver in fact. The only point I’m trying to prove through all of this is that 2 drifts shouldn’t be in a deck. Period. I’m sorry if I came off as rude or annoying or anything, I was just trying to prove a point that 2 drifts shouldn’t be in a deck. How the discussion continued here and elsewhere is just cause I was quoting others who were talking about drift.
(Oct. 06, 2021 3:49 AM)TheRogueBlader Wrote:(Oct. 06, 2021 3:44 AM)Ardmore Bladers Wrote: I’m not sure why anyone wouldn’t want Drift in the center, it’s fairly infamous for self-koing otherwise, and an aggressive Drift on the other hand would still be easy prey for a competent attack user. As Zankye and Magikhorse said, don’t make Drift out to be more oppressive than it is. Find strategies to counter it, it’s really not that difficult to beat.An aggressive drift would attack the attack type, slowing it down but weakening the attack type. This makes it less likely to self KO because the attack type is weaker and drift is slowed down enough, but that’s a strategy I should probably test out. I agree, coming up with strategies is a good way to beat it but all the stuff I’m saying about drift is actually what it does, I’m not making it more oppressive. It’s weaknesses: Knocking if off balance, high same spin stamina, opposite spin mirror matches, un-skilled player. I’m well aware of the weaknesses, but let’s not forget about the strengths: opposite spin king, high defense, good same spin, mobility makes it useful on things like rage to KO and equalize at the same time.
I would agree it’s most likely the best part for opposite spin, but I don’t agree with any of your other points. It’s defense isn’t great,(I thought we had already established that?) it’s same spin is abysmal, it loses to pretty much anything same-spin(Bearing, Zone’+Z, Xtend Plus, Rise, Hybrid, even Revolve, just to name a few) it’s “mobility” is mostly counterintuitive to what Drift is best at, staying in the center and OSing stuff. It’s not great on Rage or even Guilty, it’s meh at best, as it will lose to most stuff it comes up against(Vanish Bearing, Dynamite Drift, Astral Bearing/Rise, Guilty Xtreme Dash, Quick Dash, etc.). Rage and Guilty were not designed with stamina in mind, and even Drift with its opposite spin prowess may not be enough to carry the combo. I’m not trying to downplay Drift, I’m just stating the obvious in terms of what Drift very much lacks.
(Oct. 06, 2021 4:05 AM)Ardmore Bladers Wrote:When you say even revolve, that’s as if its bad. It’s still got better same spin than all the other drivers in those parenthesis you mentioned besides maybe bearing or hybrid, but it is outclassed, just to say that though. It’s same spin is not abysmal, it’s good if you have the skill to control it. Rage and Guilty clearly aren’t designed for stamina but if you put drift on it you get a powerful KOer that has high LAD.(Oct. 06, 2021 3:49 AM)TheRogueBlader Wrote: An aggressive drift would attack the attack type, slowing it down but weakening the attack type. This makes it less likely to self KO because the attack type is weaker and drift is slowed down enough, but that’s a strategy I should probably test out. I agree, coming up with strategies is a good way to beat it but all the stuff I’m saying about drift is actually what it does, I’m not making it more oppressive. It’s weaknesses: Knocking if off balance, high same spin stamina, opposite spin mirror matches, un-skilled player. I’m well aware of the weaknesses, but let’s not forget about the strengths: opposite spin king, high defense, good same spin, mobility makes it useful on things like rage to KO and equalize at the same time.
I would agree it’s most likely the best part for opposite spin, but I don’t agree with any of your other points. It’s defense isn’t great,(I thought we had already established that?) it’s same spin is abysmal, it loses to pretty much anything same-spin(Bearing, Zone’+Z, Xtend Plus, Rise, Hybrid, even Revolve, just to name a few) it’s “mobility” is mostly counterintuitive to what Drift is best at, staying in the center and OSing stuff. It’s not great on Rage or even Guilty, it’s meh at best, as it will lose to most stuff it comes up against(Vanish Bearing, Dynamite Drift, Astral Bearing/Rise, Guilty Xtreme Dash, Quick Dash, etc.). Rage and Guilty were not designed with stamina in mind, and even Drift with its opposite spin prowess may not be enough to carry the combo. I’m not trying to downplay Drift, I’m just stating the obvious in terms of what Drift very much lacks.
I get that you’re not trying to downplay it I’m just saying you underestimate it by a little to much.
(Oct. 05, 2021 8:46 PM)TheRogueBlader Wrote:(Oct. 05, 2021 8:41 PM)MagikHorse Wrote: Drift is not an issue in Classic. Dragoon S and Dragoon F exist, but they are not shaped well and are inconsistent and bursty anyways (and therefore also not a real issue). It's enough to be usable, but my own attempt to use this strategy backfired horribly, and there's easy ways to outplay the Drift user with those layers.Ever heard of a dash lad driver? I mean it was stupid of tt to do, but zone’+z exists. You know, a dash driver? With the best lad only 2nd to drift which will burst anyway and will never be used in same spin? Ultimate combo anyone?
(Sorry if I sound rude, I just tend to type like this when in a debate about something)
In this post you made a little while ago, you insinuated that Drift has poor same-spin stamina when you said, in reference to Drift, that it would “never be used in same spin.” This would contradict what you said above about Drift beating every driver I mention in same-spin except for “maybe” Bearing and Hybrid.
Some thoughts: Drift does not appear to be seeing the same level of prominence it did previously at the moment. We see a lot of Bearing and some zn'+z as well, two parts which fill the gap were drift banned. Drift also doesn't really lose by burst that much, so MDr isn't really going to change much.
For a deck, you're generally going to want more than just drift, a primarily opposite spin driver (mine is amazing in same spin compared to a lot of what I've seen but still loses to bearing, which is ubiquitous now), so most people aren't going to run Dr and MDr in the same deck.
If you do ban them, then Zn+Z, Zn'+Z, Br, Br', Rs(a) will simply fill the void - and therein lies the problem. There's general acknowledgement that we are dealing with an excessively LAD focussed meta, and to address it with bans we would have to do more than ban Dr. As such, the committee has already committed to finding a solution based around play rulings rather than bans, and this is the right way to go - test tournaments have seen an increase in usage of attack rather than LAD combos. There are still things to work out, but it looks promising and I trust Shindog and the OP committee to decide on a good solution (I'm very partial to the one Shindog posted).
Lastly, on bans in general, I agree with MagikHorse that people jump to ban things too often. A part needs to really dominate a lot of things or in a tonne of areas. Dr is strong - mine is actually quite hard to KO and is decent in same spin, but it isn't nearly as powerful as say, Scythe (Metal Fury) in limited, which can really do stamina, defense and attack as well as various balance combos as good as or significantly better than everything else. On the other hand, an example of how good a part would have to be at a particular thing rather than everything to deserve a ban is a recent little exchange I had with MagikHorse that resulted in him testing DcV for classic after I repeatedly (but facetiously) said Ten Spike would suck too hard even there - he can post the testing if he wants but basically the thing just decimates what I understand the best possible counter to it (Acid Anubis) 17-3. That would be an easy ban decision were it not automatic, but Dr is way below that level too. Yes, it's not a fun part to watch, but there are a lot of other things in the same boat and Dr isn't actually the root of the problem.
For a deck, you're generally going to want more than just drift, a primarily opposite spin driver (mine is amazing in same spin compared to a lot of what I've seen but still loses to bearing, which is ubiquitous now), so most people aren't going to run Dr and MDr in the same deck.
If you do ban them, then Zn+Z, Zn'+Z, Br, Br', Rs(a) will simply fill the void - and therein lies the problem. There's general acknowledgement that we are dealing with an excessively LAD focussed meta, and to address it with bans we would have to do more than ban Dr. As such, the committee has already committed to finding a solution based around play rulings rather than bans, and this is the right way to go - test tournaments have seen an increase in usage of attack rather than LAD combos. There are still things to work out, but it looks promising and I trust Shindog and the OP committee to decide on a good solution (I'm very partial to the one Shindog posted).
Lastly, on bans in general, I agree with MagikHorse that people jump to ban things too often. A part needs to really dominate a lot of things or in a tonne of areas. Dr is strong - mine is actually quite hard to KO and is decent in same spin, but it isn't nearly as powerful as say, Scythe (Metal Fury) in limited, which can really do stamina, defense and attack as well as various balance combos as good as or significantly better than everything else. On the other hand, an example of how good a part would have to be at a particular thing rather than everything to deserve a ban is a recent little exchange I had with MagikHorse that resulted in him testing DcV for classic after I repeatedly (but facetiously) said Ten Spike would suck too hard even there - he can post the testing if he wants but basically the thing just decimates what I understand the best possible counter to it (Acid Anubis) 17-3. That would be an easy ban decision were it not automatic, but Dr is way below that level too. Yes, it's not a fun part to watch, but there are a lot of other things in the same boat and Dr isn't actually the root of the problem.
![[Image: UwZsp7A.png]](https://i.imgur.com/UwZsp7A.png)
(Oct. 06, 2021 4:22 AM)Ardmore Bladers Wrote:(Oct. 05, 2021 8:46 PM)TheRogueBlader Wrote: Ever heard of a dash lad driver? I mean it was stupid of tt to do, but zone’+z exists. You know, a dash driver? With the best lad only 2nd to drift which will burst anyway and will never be used in same spin? Ultimate combo anyone?
(Sorry if I sound rude, I just tend to type like this when in a debate about something)
In this post you made a little while ago, you insinuated that Drift has poor same-spin stamina when you said, in reference to Drift, that it would “never be used in same spin.” This would contradict what you said above about Drift beating every driver I mention in same-spin except for “maybe” Bearing and Hybrid.
I was talking about revolves same spin beating the drivers besides maybe bearing and hybrid, drift would lose to all of them same spin
I’m not saying drift has great same spin, just good same spin if you can control it. So good is the max same spin you an get out can get out of it. Not saying it’s great, I will say it’s horrible if the Blader is unskilled, but in the hands of a skilled Blader it’s it’s got good same spin.
anyway moving aside from roguebladers drift hatred (just go to burst classic if you hate drift tbh) I don't really think Karma needs to be banned over one video, tests need to be done first to see if it is ban worthy just like all other parts. We shouldn't ban a part just because of one video, people hating on it cause of them losing to it, or because of spam (cause honestly something will replace a banned part eventually).
(Oct. 06, 2021 4:42 AM)HakaishinLDrago Wrote: anyway moving aside from roguebladers drift hatred (just go to burst classic if you hate drift tbh) I don't really think Karma needs to be banned over one video, tests need to be done first to see if it is ban worthy just like all other parts. We shouldn't ban a part just because of one video, people hating on it cause of them losing to it, or because of spam (cause honestly something will replace a banned part eventually).I agree. The 12 disc was the only disc that caused this problem, the nine disc was sharp like the karma disc, it didn’t break beys. Plus DB beys are low, so the disc will 99% not make contact with the layer.
On the topic of karma, then, I tried to maximise the damage it could do - I want to show the absolute worst case scenario, to put the most force possible behind its blades, expose them as well as possible, and use the weakest target possible. Keep that in mind when viewing these - in practice, at the absolute worse I would say Zwei and Rage are both much more dangerous.
Combo used was Guilty Bahamut Karma Quattro+2 - heavy on top in high mode to expose the wheel. Quattro in rubber flat mode. This was against Vanish, the softest target possible. It did manage to gouge the rubber a little, but I've seen worse damage from say, Zwei or Rage against Judgment or Lord. Again, this is the most damage I could make it do in a worst case scenario. Do not take it out of context - I am concerned people will but I do think it is important to post the worst case data. What may be more relevant is that used in conventional setups, or even the same setup in Low Mode, I am unable to make it produce any abnormal damage to opposing beyblades - of course I can't provide pics of this as there is nothing to photograph. Frankly, I call bull on the video of Cyclone being broken.
http://imgur.com/a/3eFlADG
So yes, I guess you could troll an opponent by using a combo like this to damage vanish? But Karma also has some meta relevance (as much as I'd rather use Nx (no S gear) as my third disk because it's heavier and similarly doesn't scrape) - especially if Guilty Longinus is the only DB bey one can afford, by banning Karma we are forcing people to buy another DB Beyblade to use it effectively, which is a big ask for a lot of players - I'm personally not okay with that.
Combo used was Guilty Bahamut Karma Quattro+2 - heavy on top in high mode to expose the wheel. Quattro in rubber flat mode. This was against Vanish, the softest target possible. It did manage to gouge the rubber a little, but I've seen worse damage from say, Zwei or Rage against Judgment or Lord. Again, this is the most damage I could make it do in a worst case scenario. Do not take it out of context - I am concerned people will but I do think it is important to post the worst case data. What may be more relevant is that used in conventional setups, or even the same setup in Low Mode, I am unable to make it produce any abnormal damage to opposing beyblades - of course I can't provide pics of this as there is nothing to photograph. Frankly, I call bull on the video of Cyclone being broken.
http://imgur.com/a/3eFlADG
So yes, I guess you could troll an opponent by using a combo like this to damage vanish? But Karma also has some meta relevance (as much as I'd rather use Nx (no S gear) as my third disk because it's heavier and similarly doesn't scrape) - especially if Guilty Longinus is the only DB bey one can afford, by banning Karma we are forcing people to buy another DB Beyblade to use it effectively, which is a big ask for a lot of players - I'm personally not okay with that.
(Oct. 06, 2021 4:54 AM)th!nk Wrote: On the topic of karma, then, I tried to maximise the damage it could do - I want to show the absolute worst case scenario, to put the most force possible behind its blades, expose them as well as possible, and use the weakest target possible. Keep that in mind when viewing these - in practice, at the absolute worse I would say Zwei and Rage are both much more dangerous.Looking at that photo, I think I will look for another more efficient way to awaken my Vanish, if that is a thing.
Combo used was Guilty Bahamut Karma Quattro+2 - heavy on top in high mode to expose the wheel. Quattro in rubber flat mode. This was against Vanish, the softest target possible. It did manage to gouge the rubber a little, but I've seen worse damage from say, Zwei or Rage against Judgment or Lord. Again, this is the most damage I could make it do in a worst case scenario. Do not take it out of context - I am concerned people will but I do think it is important to post the worst case data. What may be more relevant is that used in conventional setups, or even the same setup in Low Mode, I am unable to make it produce any abnormal damage to opposing beyblades. Frankly, I call bull on the video of Tempest being broken.
http://imgur.com/a/3eFlADG