Should Sniping/Gattyaki be part of the game? – WBO Staff wants your feedback!

(Sep. 10, 2021  3:41 PM)Kei Wrote:
(Sep. 10, 2021  3:31 PM)Shindog Wrote: I don’t think the dynamite user launched early and I believe the vanish user did Launch a bit late.  I do personally see a problem in the first video.  I was there in real time and didn’t see a problem. I guess my point is that even with video it can be hard to decide.

For sure, I agree. Judging can be hard. These situations will never be fully black and white. The judge exists in order to make a decision to the best of their ability.

I think no matter what rules we implement, there will be a component of it that becomes difficult to judge. There can be some difficulties judging Gattyaki, but there could also be difficulties judging if both Beyblades hitting the stadium floor was mandated as the point at which a match starts. How can you precisely tell the exact moment when both Beyblades have touched the floor?

In both scenarios there will inherently be incentives to launch early or late. Players will always push the limits in order to gain an advantage. It's up to the judges to decide whether whatever each player does exists within the parameters of what our launching rules permit, which will always exist on a spectrum given the realities I mentioned before.

If we accept that judging will always be difficult, then the discussion becomes more of a philosophical one with regards to whether we believe Gattyaki is a legitimate technique or not. I absolutely believe it is, but I understand those who feel otherwise. There is no clear or definitive objectively correct answer here. And that's what has made this discussion so difficult to resolve.
I don’t think we can expect 2 beyblades to hit the floor at precisely the same time, all the time ….  I am not trying to say because we use the floor, the beyblades will all of the sudden contact the floor at the same time.  It will always be “close enough.”   The idea of the floor being the starting point is that both beyblades would have had an opportunity to have the driver make contact with the stadium floor.  This would mean the fully constructed Beyblade would have interacted with the play surface in a way that it was intended to.  The driver is there for the reason of contacting the stadium floor in my opinion.  I also believe because the stadium floor is a visible starting line, it is easier to judge. I find it hard to believe that it would be easier to judge launch timing of 2 beyblades colliding in mid-air vs 2 beyblades landing on the stadium floor.  

I do feel like these points I am making are just being repeated in this thread.
(Sep. 10, 2021  3:23 PM)Kei Wrote:
(Sep. 05, 2021  7:12 AM)Shindog Wrote: Here is a recent video of what I would consider a gattyaki.   I was right there next to the judge on this one.  It looked good at the time to both me and the judge, and Vanish was awarded a KO.  However, after getting the video and slowing it down+ listening with decent headphones, I do now completely believe Vanish was launched too late.  This didn’t affect the outcome of the match luckily, but my point still remains that Gattyaki is too hard to judge.  

https://youtu.be/-_3X7hG_c48?t=1m07s

I don't see a problem with this one. It's a bit hard to hear "shoot" in the video but based on the cadence of that countdown and what I could see, it looks like the Vanish user launched at the end of "Shoot" and maybe started pulling the string at the start of "Shoot".

If anything, you might be able to argue that he Dynamite user launched too early. It seems like they launched at "Go" and the rulebook says:

Quote:Both bladers must simultaneously launch their Beyblades as the word “shoot” is called.

If you really want to get in to things I guess you can argue the precise meaning of "launch". Does it mean when the user starts pulling the cord/string or when the Beyblade leaves the launcher? When does the state of being "launched" become true?

But ignoring the minute details like this ... just watching that it to me seems to generally be within what I would consider an acceptable difference in launch timing. It's literally impossible to expect all players to launch at precisely the same time in all matches, so there needs to be some lee-way to allow for slightly different timing during the countdown.

If a player wants to or ends up launching very slightly 'early' or very slightly 'late', I think that should be permitted considering the realities of reaction time and the length of the words in the countdown.

And if you know you are going to launch towards the 'early' end of the spectrum, it is your responsibility to be aware that you might end up being hit by your opponent from above. As such, you need to account for that in your risk assessment and launch positioning.

(Sep. 05, 2021  7:25 AM)Shindog Wrote: Later in the same video:

https://youtu.be/-_3X7hG_c48?t=2m19s

A gattyaki that is too early, but this one was called back.

On the other hand, this one seems more obviously early since they started launching before "Go" was even said.

Simply want to point out something.

Probably, I am the one who can tell if the opponent launches at the time of being said "shoot". Paying very careful attention to the timing of launching is one of my biggest things during the match, along with relaunching situation and other related launching violations/rules, which some people already noticed in my other videos. So many violations I have caught !!!!!
As I said above, the vanish user tends to launch late mostly (personally know the vanish player, play together at my local tourney over 2 years). I didn't disagree with judge`s decision since it was still acceptable time period as you mentioned "realities of reaction time". Right after, I told the vanish player to try to launch in the right timing/simultaneously.

In the second one, it may not be easy to hear judge`s "go, shoot" clearly. My bey was launched at the exact timing of "shoot". The judge in that second video was the same person in the first video, who always performs a countdown at easily followable speed and steady rhythm, which I am very used to. 

Overall, what people can see in the video is slightly different than what really happened. 

".....never be fully black and white. The judge exists in order to make a decision to the best of their ability."
-> This is true !
Here is another gattayki footage.

https://youtu.be/OOys0V572Tc?t=2m35s

The “successful” one is of course illegal yet again.  Once again, at regular speed, it really looked pretty good to me.  Still looking for footage for a gattyaki that both scores a point and is entirely, undoubtedly legal.  On the other hand, we already have videos here of gattyaki in this thread that are undoubtedly illegal that were awarded points. 

I agree that players will push the limit of a legal launch, and they will sometimes cross that limit naturally.  I also think allowing gattyaki naturally incentivizes pushing that limit to its utmost, and leading to more crossing limit.  

These are the 4 launches of the match below. None were called back I don’t think, and frankly, at live speed, they didn’t look too bad to me.  This match is between 2 experienced good player/organizer
and they did have a judge.  I don’t fault the judge or the players for not catching any of them really.  However, why should we incentivize breaking launching rules?  

1) first launch and the most legal launch.  Rock was easily OS.  Naturally, trying Gattyaki makes some sense now.


[Image: 9KkQJc6.jpg]

2) second launch and the most illegal launch.  The illegal gattyaki was “successful”

[Image: n31fSso.jpg]

3) third launch, still not quite legal

[Image: JLqj562.jpg]

4) fourth launch, still not quite legal

[Image: zjJYDTK.jpg]

The launching rule states:
  • Keep your Launcher held within your half of the BeyStadium. Never attempt to obstruct your opponent’s launch.
We can’t get rid of slightly late launches or launches that cross the midline entirely.  Players will do those things on purpose or not on purpose.  I just prefer that, when players do break the rules, purposefully or accidentally, they are a bit less likely to be rewarded  with a point.  Do we really need a technique that incentivized breaking the rule to be legal?  Is there something really that wrong for both beyblades to make it the stadium floor before a win condition occurs? That is where the the Beyblades were designed to spin and battle I think.

What is so unacceptable about the maker of Beybalde’s rule below?

“The battle begins when all Beys pass the shooting area and touch the stadium. If the battle does not start, such as the Revive Armor/Dead Armor comes off before the stadium is touched, or the Beys collide and burst, the battle will be redone”

I do know this.  I would much prefer the point scored in the 2nd battle of this particular match to automatically not count.  It didn’t affect the outcome of this match, but it also wasn’t fair at all.

I must say again I have a lot of respect for both players and appreciate the judge doing the best they can here.  I do not see this as people problem.  I see it as a rule problem.
Honestly in Burst Standard without a Catapult Grip for Plastics (and maybe even then - I'll have to try it) I straight up do not believe it's possible to do without crossing the mid line. Not with the weight of Burst and the 30cm limitation and the guard.

Perhaps in non shrouded stadia and certainly you can get a beyblade across the stadium far enough to hit before touching down with the Catapult Grip in plastics (shin I believe I showed you this but I want to re-record some time), but I'm entirely unconvinced it's viable in burst and so far, I haven't seen video to show me otherwise. Whether that is deserving of a rule change due to being so hard to see, I'm not sure, but if we are acknowledging LAD as an issue for judging that requires addressing, then this probably falls in line - again, at least for burst. I am much less convinced it should be banned in plastics and unsure about MFB. While consistency is nice, they are very different games...
(Sep. 29, 2021  3:44 PM)Shindog Wrote: Here is another gattayki footage.

https://youtu.be/OOys0V572Tc?t=2m35s

The “successful” one is of course illegal yet again.  Once again, at regular speed, it really looked pretty good to me.  Still looking for footage for a gattyaki that both scores a point and is entirely, undoubtedly legal.  On the other hand, we already have videos here of gattyaki in this thread that are undoubtedly illegal that were awarded points. 
(Sep. 30, 2021  2:26 AM)th!nk Wrote: Honestly in Burst Standard without a Catapult Grip for Plastics (and maybe even then - I'll have to try it) I straight up do not believe it's possible to do without crossing the mid line. Not with the weight of Burst and the 30cm limitation and the guard.

I don't remember whether it was on Line, Discord, or the WBO, but at one point Shindog defined a "successful" Gattyaki as one that was both legal within the time wise and space wise boundaries, and where mid-air contact (but not necessarily a KO) with the opponent was achieved.

While moving the goalposts to actually scoring a point makes sense here, let the record show that by that older definition, I did perform a "successful" Gattyaki against LazerBeamz in the first round of this match here (and almost succeeded in KOing his combo as well). I'd have to comb through more tournament footage (thankfully, a lot of it exists nowadays compared to the past) while specifically looking for instances of it, but I'm sure a "successful" Gattyaki that scores a point is somewhere to be found in there.
(Sep. 30, 2021  3:19 AM)Wombat Wrote: I don't remember whether it was on Line, Discord, or the WBO, but at one point Shindog defined…
What is Line? I know what Discord is (though I don’t have it, I generally don’t have apps like Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, etc…) and obviously the WBO is the WBO, but what’s Line?
(Sep. 30, 2021  3:19 AM)Wombat Wrote:
(Sep. 29, 2021  3:44 PM)Shindog Wrote: Here is another gattayki footage.

https://youtu.be/OOys0V572Tc?t=2m35s

The “successful” one is of course illegal yet again.  Once again, at regular speed, it really looked pretty good to me.  Still looking for footage for a gattyaki that both scores a point and is entirely, undoubtedly legal.  On the other hand, we already have videos here of gattyaki in this thread that are undoubtedly illegal that were awarded points. 
(Sep. 30, 2021  2:26 AM)th!nk Wrote: Honestly in Burst Standard without a Catapult Grip for Plastics (and maybe even then - I'll have to try it) I straight up do not believe it's possible to do without crossing the mid line. Not with the weight of Burst and the 30cm limitation and the guard.

I don't remember whether it was on Line, Discord, or the WBO, but at one point Shindog defined a "successful" Gattyaki as one that was both legal within the time wise and space wise boundaries, and where mid-air contact (but not necessarily a KO) with the opponent was achieved.

While moving the goalposts to actually scoring a point makes sense here, let the record show that by that older definition, I did perform a "successful" Gattyaki against LazerBeamz in the first round of this match here (and almost succeeded in KOing his combo as well). I'd have to comb through more tournament footage (thankfully, a lot of it exists nowadays compared to the past) while specifically looking for instances of it, but I'm sure a "successful" Gattyaki that scores a point is somewhere to be found in there.
 Actually, I used successful in quotes because I am basing off the criteria here:

https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Should-...pid1635887

And here 

https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Should-...pid1636279


But it’s possible I misinterpreted what was said.  It seemed to me that the posts above suggest the act of gattyaki has to win the point while it is still in gattyaki phase to be “successful” (midair contact or drop onto), unlike a sliding shoot or soft launch.  I don’t know that the way I personally define something should be the standard.  I don’t know that I am moving the goalposts.  I thought this was where the goalposts were set.  I thought I was just taking another definition of “successful gattyaki” into consideration. 

In any case, I do believe we will find footage of a legal gattyaki sooner or later.  That is why I keep asking for it . It just seems so uncommon compare to illegal ones that are not ruled illegal by the judges.  Also, all the attempts at gattyaki that become illegal launches seem quite numerous.  We don’t seem to comb much at all to find illegal attempts. This is the point I am trying to make of course.
(Sep. 30, 2021  3:24 AM)LTheRogueBlader Wrote:
(Sep. 30, 2021  3:19 AM)Wombat Wrote: I don't remember whether it was on Line, Discord, or the WBO, but at one point Shindog defined…
What is Line? I know what Discord is (though I don’t have it, I generally don’t have apps like Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, etc…) and obviously the WBO is the WBO, but what’s Line?

Line is a chat app.
(Sep. 30, 2021  4:26 AM)Shindog Wrote:
(Sep. 30, 2021  3:24 AM)LTheRogueBlader Wrote: What is Line? I know what Discord is (though I don’t have it, I generally don’t have apps like Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, etc…) and obviously the WBO is the WBO, but what’s Line?

Line is a chat app.
Ah, ok
(Sep. 30, 2021  3:19 AM)Wombat Wrote: While moving the goalposts to actually scoring a point makes sense here, let the record show that by that older definition, I did perform a "successful" Gattyaki against LazerBeamz in the first round of this match here (and almost succeeded in KOing his combo as well). I'd have to comb through more tournament footage (thankfully, a lot of it exists nowadays compared to the past) while specifically looking for instances of it, but I'm sure a "successful" Gattyaki that scores a point is somewhere to be found in there.

Also, in regards to the video referenced here.  I’ve only watched past the first battle just today apparently. Was the 3rd battle/point an attempt at gattyaki as well?
(Sep. 30, 2021  3:19 AM)Wombat Wrote:
(Sep. 29, 2021  3:44 PM)Shindog Wrote: Here is another gattayki footage.

https://youtu.be/OOys0V572Tc?t=2m35s

The “successful” one is of course illegal yet again.  Once again, at regular speed, it really looked pretty good to me.  Still looking for footage for a gattyaki that both scores a point and is entirely, undoubtedly legal.  On the other hand, we already have videos here of gattyaki in this thread that are undoubtedly illegal that were awarded points. 
(Sep. 30, 2021  2:26 AM)th!nk Wrote: Honestly in Burst Standard without a Catapult Grip for Plastics (and maybe even then - I'll have to try it) I straight up do not believe it's possible to do without crossing the mid line. Not with the weight of Burst and the 30cm limitation and the guard.

I don't remember whether it was on Line, Discord, or the WBO, but at one point Shindog defined a "successful" Gattyaki as one that was both legal within the time wise and space wise boundaries, and where mid-air contact (but not necessarily a KO) with the opponent was achieved.

While moving the goalposts to actually scoring a point makes sense here, let the record show that by that older definition, I did perform a "successful" Gattyaki against LazerBeamz in the first round of this match here (and almost succeeded in KOing his combo as well). I'd have to comb through more tournament footage (thankfully, a lot of it exists nowadays compared to the past) while specifically looking for instances of it, but I'm sure a "successful" Gattyaki that scores a point is somewhere to be found in there.

Well, I'm impressed - my own attempts I did a while back with Burst Standard did not result in a sufficient trajectory to make midair contact if within 30cm and the half line, unless an opponent was trying to do the same. 
Nonetheless, we now have one example of a successful executed and judged KO launch, I will pay that - we also have numerous examples of incorrect decisions made that are extremely difficult to see without slowing down footage, meaning we have allowed a number of wins that shouldn't have been such... That is still troubling, no? Looking at the footage without slowing it down I may have made the same call too - I cannot fault the experienced judges that have made these decisions and I am sure the players do not believe they are crossing the mid line either. But still, these battles are judged incorrectly. This would imply to me that we do need to make a change - if our most experienced judges are making errors, we probably need to look at our rules, right?
For various reasons I prefer rules that don't leave much to interpretation - the less room for people to rules lawyer things the better, especially if it's risking undermining our beyrank system by invalidating matches which lead to placement in finals.

I'm curious, also - do we have any examples either way in non-shrouded stadiums of the technique being used on video? I would like to see if we are getting a different result there.