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Sharp Wide Defense Discussion.

Jan. 06, 2012  7:34 PM
 
I finally managed to get some testing done with SWD.

SWD Stamina Testing:
Spoiler (Click to View)

SWD on BD145 Testing:
Spoiler (Click to View)

SWD Against Atttack Testing:
Spoiler (Click to View)

Kei's Testing:
Spoiler (Click to View)

Nocto's Testing:
Spoiler (Click to View)

Jan. 06, 2012  7:41 PM
 
It seems pretty good with Stamina. I wonder what it is like with defense. Would someone mind doing comparative testing with CS on Defense? Maybe on Basalt ______ BD145 against VariAres R145RF?
Jan. 06, 2012  8:21 PM
 
CS works because of its rubber, SWD has no rubber. Also look at the KO rates from the phantom matchup. It's not going to be great defensively.
Though, it would be good to know if it scrapes on BD145. If not, tests of BD145SWD vs BD145EDS would be awesome.

Thanks for the tests Blitz.

Hopefully, this might actually see use over WD in some cases.
Jan. 06, 2012  9:06 PM
 
Could you try it against a EWD combo?
Jan. 06, 2012  9:06 PM
 
Awesome, typo mistake though, it's Phantom AD145 WD
Jan. 07, 2012  8:47 AM
 
SWD seems to outperform WD, which is now still a great tip for stamina, but outclassed in just pure stamina, and not really in competitive combos (EX: B:D)
Could you do comparative tests against B:D? Such as Duo (Stamina) Cancer AD145SWD vs. Duo (Stamina) Cancer B:D.
This won't fare well against attackers, as it's much like a WD - but sharper and more at a point. So that would lead me to assume it has less friction (due to a slightly higher win rate in your comparative test) and less friction is what you don't need in a defense combo.
loltestitforattack
Question - does SWD scrape? It seems quite low, and I haven't seen it in action really at all at an angle, so if you could answer that, that'd be great. :)
Great tests Blitz!
Jan. 07, 2012  11:41 AM
 
I really don't think WD is at all outclassed by B: D, Rai.
Jan. 07, 2012  12:44 PM
 
With Phantom, yes, on Scythe, Burn, etc. No.
Jan. 07, 2012  3:28 PM
 
(Jan. 07, 2012  11:41 AM)th!nk Wrote: I really don't think WD is at all outclassed by B: D, Rai.

I believe he was referring to Solo Spin Time; in which probably even PD outclassed WD. Smile
As for SWD, it looks pretty decent to me. Yes, it needs more testing, but seems like its quite good...
Jan. 08, 2012  12:21 AM
 
I've added some BD145SWD VS BD145EDS testing.
Jan. 08, 2012  7:07 AM
 
I know this should technically go in the Fusion discussion thread, but I'll post it here, since it involves SWD... I know you're probably sick to death of testing Fusion for Stamina, but could you throw a college try at Fusion(both modes) BD145SWD versus Scythe BD145EDS?

Just another mindless curiosity. Feel free to say no. Smile
Jan. 08, 2012  11:12 AM
 
Argh, so much potential, but then squandered...

Hm, I know it's a lot to ask, but could you maybe try Duo BD145SWD against, ummm, something like Basalt BD145CS or even Phantom TH170CS or something... Not entirely sure.

Curious to see if Low Recoil Wheel BD145SWD is still a chance, or you need to be facing a low recoil opponent too Confused
Jan. 08, 2012  11:17 AM
 
A question from me too.. Can MLD on 100 balance itself on SWD like WD? If it does then can you try out MLD 100 SWD against Scythe BD145 EDS or any other stamina custom?
Jan. 08, 2012  1:02 PM
 
Suppressed Scythe...
Devastated by Phantom...
OK, this is soon going to replace DS as "my favorite tip"(or maybe RDF will come in first). Tongue_out
But yeah, it was weird to see it lose a 100% to Phantom after winning mirror matches against Scythe. Confused
Good news- It works with BD145! Grin
Sam- Considering the fact that MLD is too light, and now as spin equalization is almost facing an end, I think those combos might suppress it. But yeah, I see your point of why to test it. Smile

I want to see this go up against a few Attackers, considering Attack is the weakness of Stamina types. Smile
Jan. 10, 2012  2:34 PM
 
Updated the OP.

I didn't really know what SWD combo to use against Attack as I doubt anything will do that well lol.

As for the Meteo tests they'll probably make me pull my hair out... I'll see what I can do.
Jan. 10, 2012  3:22 PM
 
Well, my little suggested tests were a bigger raspberry than I was expecting... oh well. I guess Fusion Hades AD145SWD is officially on the "Do Not Buy" list, for me. At least until Sono Kong pops it out - honestly, even if it were great I wouldn't buy it for the current prices, but as bad as it is... even $20 is pushing it, lol.
Jan. 10, 2012  3:30 PM
 
(Jan. 10, 2012  3:22 PM)Hazel Wrote: Well, my little suggested tests were a bigger raspberry than I was expecting... oh well. I guess Fusion Hades AD145SWD is officially on the "Do Not Buy" list, for me. At least until Sono Kong pops it out - honestly, even if it were great I wouldn't buy it for the current prices, but as bad as it is... even $20 is pushing it, lol.

Agree 100%.
The tests were a cakewalk for VariAres...
MLD testing.... I wonder how would you do it! XD
Jan. 17, 2012  4:54 AM
 
BeyStadium Standard Type (Balance Floor)
Launcher Grip + Light Launcher for both
Slightly worn WD, mint SWD
Wheels switched every five battles
Stamina Mode for both Phantoms
Shots alternated.

Phantom Hades AD145WD vs. Phantom Hades AD145SWD
Phantom Hades AD145WD: 10 wins
Phantom Hades AD145SWD: 10 wins
SWD win percentage: 50%

Just to make sure the WD I was using wasn't giving SWD any sort of advantage, I swapped it with another one that was probably slightly less worn:

Phantom Hades AD145WD vs. Phantom Hades AD145SWD
Phantom Hades AD145WD: 5 wins
Phantom Hades AD145SWD: 5 wins
SWD win percentage: 50%

I can't draw any conclusions, really. The only thing I can say is that SWD is at least close to WD in terms of Stamina. Or it could be on par ... or it could be better. The variables such as launch power, positioning, etc. play a huge role in this matchup; I had rounds that were insanely close, rounds that were heavily in favour of WD, and rounds that were heavily in favour of SWD. WD at one point did win five or six rounds in a row in the first set of testing, but still, the end result is the same. It's too close to say definitively which is better.

We need more testing from different people.
Jan. 17, 2012  5:03 AM
 
Kei, would you mind trying out some TH170D versus TH170SWD? Assuming you have two TH170... if not, 230s or whatever. Also Blitz, if you would not mind doing the same!
Jan. 17, 2012  6:58 PM
 
God it's like DS version 2.0
Jan. 17, 2012  8:17 PM
 
I also tested this, albeit with Earth Aquilas (my only duplicate Metal Wheels). In a nutshell, they were so evenly matched that whichever was shot first, lost.

MFB Attack Stadium
LL2
Launching Priority changed every 5 rounds
Bottoms interchanged every 10 rounds

Earth Aquila 145WD vs Earth Aquila 145SWD
Earth Aquila 145WD: 10 wins (10 OS)
Earth Aquila 145SWD: 10 wins (10 OS)
3 Draws
Earth Aquila 145SWD: 50%

Out of the 3 draws, 2 happened when the WD customization was shot first and 1 when it was SWD's. It might be due to WD's ability to wobble at very low rotation, something that SWD doesn't seem able to match.

Edit: 230 test:

Same Procedure

Earth Aquila 230WD vs Earth Aquila 230SWD
Earth Aquila 230WD: 13 wins (13 OS)
Earth Aquila 230SWD: 7 wins (7 OS)
2 Draws (1 WD, 1 SWD)
Earth Aquila 230SWD: 35%

Edit2:

Earth Aquila 230D vs Earth Aquila 230SWD
Earth Aquila 230D: 8 wins (8 OS)
Earth Aquila 230SWD: 12 wins (12 OS)
2 KOs (SWD wins) D Custom bounced on the SWD Custom at launch and got knocked out both times.
Earth Aquila 230SWD: 60%
Jan. 18, 2012  12:24 AM
 
(Jan. 17, 2012  5:03 AM)Hazel Wrote: Kei, would you mind trying out some TH170D versus TH170SWD? Assuming you have two TH170... if not, 230s or whatever. Also Blitz, if you would not mind doing the same!

BeyStadium Standard Type (Balance Floor)
Launcher Grip + BeyLauncher
Slightly worn D and SWD
Stamina Mode for both Phantoms
195 height for both TH170s
Shots alternated.

Phantom Horogium TH170D vs. Phantom Horogium TH170SWD
Phantom Horogium TH170D: 13 wins
Phantom Horogium TH170SWD: 2 wins
SWD win percentage: 13%

Just as I predicted. Like WD, it isn't a good idea to use SWD on a tall Track like TH170. In fact, it's probably worse (as Nocto's results illustrate).

Because I thought it would be interesting given the similarity between DS and SWD ...

Phantom Horogium TH170DS vs. Phantom Horogium TH170SWD
Phantom Horogium TH170DS: 9 wins
Phantom Horogium TH170SWD: 1 win
SWD win percentage: 10%

There wasn't really any noticeable difference between these results and the TH170D vs. TH170SWD ones.

Here are some more AD145 tests. Make of them what you will:

Phantom Horogium AD145D vs. Phantom Horogium AD145SWD
Phantom Horogium AD145D: 8 wins
Phantom Horogium AD145SWD: 12 wins
SWD win percentage: 60%

What I've been wondering is: which Bottom is more difficult to knock out, WD or SWD? It may not make much of a difference in battles against Attack types, but it could when you're in battles where recoil plays a large part (ie. if you're playing a Phantom AD145SWD vs. Basalt BD145CS or something of that nature). I would postulate that SWD may have a slight edge because if it is to be KOed, both the outer ring of the Bottom and the sharp tip have to make it past the Tornado Ridge of the Attack Stadium. WD, on the other hand, kind of "rolls" out once it's been knocked back and past the first ridge.

However, Blitz's first set of results do present a slight problem; if Phantom Cancer AD145WD was able to achieve 4 KOs, while the SWD variant was only able to score one, perhaps this hypothesis is incorrect. It was the the opposite for me, though; I didn't record the KOs that happened during all of my testing, but I do know that the SWD custom had most of them.


After conducting all of the tests above, I thought that comparing SWD to B:D would shed a lot of light on the situation because of the large difference in their ability to maintain balance. Because we know that AD145WD is superior to B:D, if SWD is not, we'll know it's not because of it's Stamina ability (which appears to be on par with WD based on what we have concluded thus far), but because of its slightly worse Balance (as was illustrated by the TH170 and 230 tests). Here's how it turned out:

MF-H Phantom Aquario AD145SWD vs. Phantom Orion B:D
Phantom Orion B:D: 8 wins
MF-H Phantom Aquario AD145SWD: 2 wins
SWD win percentage: 20%

SWD did well for the great majority of the battle–often looking as though it was going to win towards the end–but after it started to wobble, B:D consistently was able to outlast it due to its ability for prolonged precession and SWD's inability to do the same thing.

edit: Just saw Nocto's second edit ... interesting. SWD did much better than in my TH170 (195 height) tests. We need more testers!
Jan. 18, 2012  6:50 PM
 
(Jan. 18, 2012  12:24 AM)Kei Wrote: Phantom Horogium TH170D vs. Phantom Horogium TH170SWD
Phantom Horogium TH170D: 13 wins
Phantom Horogium TH170SWD: 2 wins
SWD win percentage: 13%
Nocto Wrote:Earth Aquila 230D vs Earth Aquila 230SWD
Earth Aquila 230D: 8 wins (8 OS)
Earth Aquila 230SWD: 12 wins (12 OS)
2 KOs (SWD wins) D Custom bounced on the SWD Custom at launch and got knocked out both times.
Earth Aquila 230SWD: 60%

I decided to redo my tests on the more divided results.

MFB Attack Stadium
LL2
Launching Priority changed every 5 rounds
Bottoms interchanged every 10 rounds

Earth Aquila 230D vs. Earth Aquila 230SWD
Earth Aquila 230D: 14 wins (14 OS)
Earth Aquila 230SWD: 16 Wins (16 OS)
4 Draws (3 SWD, 1 D)
Earth Aquila 230SWD (after 20 rounds): 50%
Earth Aquila 230SWD (after 30 rounds): 53%

The battles were much closer this time around, especially SWD's victories. It would sometime deliver a "big" hit near the end of the match, making D stop spinning before stopping a few rotations later.

Jan. 18, 2012  7:03 PM
 
These results are all very odd... Losing to b: d....

Kei, would you be able to do a benchmark test against that particular b: d with AD145WD? On the off chance your b: d became amazing overnight or something... Confused
Mar. 01, 2012  8:31 PM
 
Hm, interesting... I will do some tests when I get home.
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