World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc. Beyblade Discussion Beyblade Customizations Metal Fight Customizations

Phantom (Attack) Hades 90MF (Updated 6/11/12)

Jun. 06, 2012  6:30 AM
 
Phantom (Attack Mode) Hades 90MF

So, way back when Earth and Burn were hot stuff for Stamina, one of my favorite combos once MF came around was Burn on MF since it could fill two roles: it could tornado stall against defense (a "moving stamina type" as I called it) or attack into Earth-based stamina combos for a KO. Basalt kinda killed anything Burn-related I threw at it though, and I had to retire my favorite custom. With Phantom's release, however, I immediately turned back to the old idea, and my results have been absolutely stellar. I've been holding off on posting this since for the longest time my new Beylauncher LR (I'm on my second) has been launching very poorly, and thus I have been unable to use this custom well (much less conduct accurate tests). I discovered a few days ago that the piece that connects the prongs to the gear system was loose, and after replacing this piece with one from one of my spare Light Launcher 2s, my Beylauncher is finally launching at full tilt and I have done some official testing with this custom.

On that note, in order for this combo to work, you MUST have either a Beylauncher or Rev-Up launcher in order to achieve the RPMs this custom demands. If the best launcher you have is that Light Launcher 2 that came with your Phantom, this custom simply will not work.


Updates

6/6/12
* Thread: Started
* Testing: Initial tests added

6/11/12
* Thread: Cleaned up test section
* Thread: Added info about launch techniques vs. BD145
* Combo: Changed overall clear wheel preference to Hades
* Testing: Tests against almost the entire top-tier added
* Testing: DefStamina88's testing added


Overview

This custom is a very launch-technique-intensive Balance combo that is a mix of Attack and Stamina. Provided you have some actual skill in launching, this is designed to be a relatively safe pick in a tournament, since as long as you aren't staring down an Attack type, this custom has a very good chance of winning against whatever you throw at it.

The primary goal was to create a "moving Stamina custom" based on MF that would allow the bey to tornado stall to avoid freak KOs. The secondary goal was to create a bey that could also attack into traditional stamina types that would otherwise potentially OS this MF-based custom.


Part Choices

Face Bolt
A regular face bolt is used to keep the overall weight distribution as focused around the outside of the bey as possible. A fine alternative is MF-F, though it is by no means necessary and I don't particularly prefer it.

Clear Wheel
Hades is used because of its incredible synergy with Phantom, namely how its use adds around a minute of solo spin time (see the Clear Wheels Testing thread). This makes Hades vital to the combo as it allows the custom to OS defense types and, occasionally, stamina types by tornado stalling. Cancer is a decent replacement, but Hades really brings out the best in Phantom.
Old (Click to View)

Metal Wheel
Phantom was chosen for several reasons. First and foremost, it is a Stamina powerhouse, thus enabling the "moving Stamina custom" idea. Duo also fits this role, but comes up short in fulfilling the second goal of enabling attack. Thus, Phantom is used in Attack mode as this mode does not hinder its overall stamina in any way (unlike Duo's Attack mode) and it provides enough attack to KO opposing Stamina customs.

Track
90 was chosen after a lot of testing. At first I tried high tracks with MF, but that just didn't ever seem to work. I then moved onto 120 to 145-height tracks, but the custom was coming up short (no pun intended) when I tried attacking into low-height Duo-based Stamina customs. Finally I settled on a low-track setup, and 90 proved the best track for Phantom in Attack mode against what I considered the two biggest Stamina threats: Phantom and Duo on AD145WD (Phantom hits the bottom of the wheel perfectly) and anything on TH220 (Phantom makes great contact with the structure of TH170). 85 and 100 didn't do particularly poorly (and DF105 did strangely well) as most low-height tracks handled low-height Stamina customs, but 90 did the best at what the custom was designed to do and overall.

Bottom
MF was the basis of this custom from the very start. It has great stamina for an attack-type tip, and it enables the bey to tornado stall against rubber bottoms. WF and XF were other contenders for the "moving stamina type" idea, but I greatly preferred how much more controllable MF was.


Launch Techniques

The key to success with this custom, as I already mentioned, is in your launch technique, as the best launch technique for a given match up changes based on the type of custom you're facing:

Against pure Stamina types, you should bank hard so that you achieve the best flower pattern you can muster with MF. Your goal is to KO the opponent in the first few seconds of the fight, though failing that you'll still have a good shot at an OS if the opponent didn't launch perfectly. MF, 90, Phantom in Attack mode, and a VERY hard launch make this possible (this won't work unless you get some serious RPMs going, which is why you need at least a Beylauncher).

Against any custom with utilizing a non-aggressive tip with rubber (primarily Defense types), you need to launch so that you tornado stall without ever going through the center of the arena. What this launch technique does is allow the opposing bey to solo spin for an extended amount of time, thus losing its stamina due to the rubber-based bottom. By the time this custom reaches the center, it is a simple matter for it to destabilize and knock over the now slowly-spinning bey. By avoiding the opponent rather than grinding against it like normal Stamina types, the freak KOs that sometimes plague regular Stamina types (especially against wheels like Basalt) are avoided altogether. Learning how to launch this custom into a perfect tornado stall can be surprisingly difficult (at first I kept slipping over the Tornado Ridge when I tried shooting straight), but it is very rewarding in the end.

Against anything with Basalt or BD145 on it, you tornado stall. Basalt wins stamina fights by grinding down the foe; if you turn the fight into a solo-spin-time battle, you'll win every time. BD145 simply doesn't provide as good a solo spin time as 90MF, as even with EDS, BD145 will scrape if you've been tornado stalling.

Against non-attacking spin equalizers, you need to decide whether or not you want to risk attacking it or you want to avoid it. Attacking into Meteo is usually very effective since it is so light, while against LDD and LDG avoiding them is the way to go since they have such piss-poor balance and solo spin times as it is. Gravity is trickier due to a slightly higher risk of being KOed; against heavy customs it is best to avoid it, and against lighter ones attacking into it is safe.

Against attack types, your best bet is to tornado stall and pray; sometimes you'll KO the opponent and sometimes you'll avoid them long enough to easily OS them, but in general this is not a custom to use against attack types.


Test Results

BB-10 Attack Stadium
Beylauncher LR with Suspension
Standard Procedure
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Vs. Stamina
Overall % Win: 87.8%
Stamina Tests (Click to View)
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Vs. Defense
Overall % Win: 100%
Defense Tests (Click to View)
_______________________________


Vs. Balance
Overall % Win: 45%
Balance Tests (Click to View)
_______________________________


Other User's Testing
DefStamina88's Testing (Click to View)
_______________________________


Closing Remarks

I'm not going to pretend tornado stalling or using Metal Flat on stamina types is some new thing or that I was the first to come up with doing this, especially with Phantom (I was browsing through the Phantom discussion thread and ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) briefly tested almost this exact custom, except he used Aquario and a Metal Face). What I do want to make known is that this custom is a very tournament viable Balance custom, and that it's a hell of a lot of fun to use since you have to be so precise with your launch techniques to succeed (rather than just straight-shooting Stamina or Defense customs all day and praying). I'll do any requests anyone has (I don't have every bey, but lord knows I have a lot), and I encourage you all to try it out and post your own results!
Jun. 06, 2012  6:36 AM
 
In the Tornado Stallin tests, why did you suddenly change the metal wheels to worse combos..?
Jun. 06, 2012  6:50 AM
 
I found a flaw with this combo: You put Phantom in attack mode, which has lots of recoil. Using the sliding shoot against stamina beys is a good choice, but if the stamina bey withstands the attack recoil may take effect and the bey may self KO due to recoil.
Jun. 06, 2012  8:02 AM
 
I just did a few tests. But I didn't follow any procedure.
Will probably go more into depth with it if needed.


I used:
BB-10 Attack Stadium
Beylauncher




And my general result with this combo is:




VS Defense


Phantom (Attack) Cancer 90MF (Tornado Stall) vs MF-H Death Cancer BD145RS(worn) (Straight Shot).
The combo does what it needs to, spins around the outside, outlasts the rubber (but stamina types should already hands down beat most defense types... except against freaky Basalt early kills).

Phantom (Attack) Cancer 90MF (Tornado Stall) vs MF-H Death Cancer BD145RS(worn) (Hard Bank near edge).
The combo loses, a hard bank'd worn RS causes the defensive bey to ride the outside of the stadium for a few seconds, which forces Phantom to make contact with it causing Phantom to self-KO due to it's recoil. If it does not self-KO, it will lose a lot of stamina in it's contact with the defensive bey and lose. Phantom can counter with an extremely extremely banked hard launch, which causes phantom to sit in place for a few seconds, but, it loses too much stamina doing this, causing it to lose anyway.

(Performing a Sliding Shot with Phantom in any scenario instant KO's itself, or if lucky, double KO.)


VS Stamina


Phantom (Attack) Cancer 90MF (Tornado Stall) vs Duo Cancer AD145WD (Mint).
Duo often OS's Phantom regardless of Tornado Stalling, WD will have a few rotations over MF in the end, MF simply falls over and stops spinning completely. In very rare occasions, Phantom will knock the stamina completely over in it's last few rotations due to it's recoil and win.

Phantom (Attack) Cancer 90MF (Sliding Shoot) vs Duo Cancer AD145WD (Mint).
Phantom KO's the stamina combo if it hits it just right and early, but it's very risky, otherwise, it loses.

Phantom (Attack) Cancer 90MF (Tornado Stall) vs Duo Cancer AD145WD (Worn).
Phantom Self-KO's off the stamina combo since the stamina combo will circle far enough around the outside of the stadium that it makes contact with Phantom. Otherwise, it will Double KO.

Phantom (Attack) Cancer 90MF (Sliding Shoot) vs Duo Cancer AD145WD (Worn).
Phantom KO's the stamina combo if it hits it just right or early, but it's very risky, otherwise, it loses.


VS Attack


Phantom (Attack) Cancer 90MF vs Attack (any)
Phantom does not stand a chance, getting KO'd much easier since MF has a hard time staying in flower, and most other tips are faster than it, just a nudge takes it out of the stadium combined with it's own recoil...







Overall, the combo is fun, and it looks pretty since the bottom side is completely purple with the correct parts, but, overall...


It seems like a high risk low reward combo.

It essentially comes down to:

If your launch has more power than the opposing bey.
If your bey does not touch the opposing bey until the last few moments against Attack/Defense.
If your bey does touch the opposing bey early if it's a stamina.

Then it will win.







I don't see any reason to choose a high recoil stamina aggressive type over a standard Stamina type seeing as how standard stamina types should already automatically beat today's rubber defense types, and against opposing stamina types (If you pull harder than your opponent then it generally means you win), and it's a general coin toss with Attack...

And although the launch technique is unique, opposing beyblade types also have their own strategies that will counter it, if they know how to I mean...



Overall:

What it's good at compared to a regular stamina combo?
Risky kills against other stamina types.

What it's not good at?
Everything else.

Is it fun to use?
Oh yes it is!

How can you improve this combo?
You could try using a MF or MF-H on it, which prevents a lot of it's self KO's, but of course, it pretty much turns it into a psuedo Anti-Meta type.




I will probably use this combo once in a while just to throw people off.


Tee-hee.


Jun. 06, 2012  8:35 AM
 
I dunno why everyone is looking down on this combo. Yes, Phantom in Attack mode does have recoil, but I did these tests, and the recoil wasn't THAT bad:

Phantom Cygnus 90MF VS MF-H Basalt Kerbecs BD145RS (Head-on attack)
Phantom: 15/20 (13 KO, 2 OS)
Basalt: 5/20 (3 OS, 2 KO)
%: 75%

Phantom Cygnus 90MF VS MF-H Basalt Kerbecs BD145RS (Tornado Stall)
Phantom: 20/20 (All OS)
Basalt: 0/20
%: 100%

Phantom Cygnus 90MF VS MF-H Wing Aquario BD145RB (Head-On Attack)
Phantom: 10/20 (6 KO, 4 OS)
Wing: 10/20 (9 OS, 1 KO)
%: 50%

Phantom Cygnus 90MF VS MF-H Wing Aquario BD145RB (Tornado Stall)
Phantom: 19/20 (All OS)
Wing: 1/20 (KO)
%: 95%


So I dunno about all of you, but personally, I really like Ingulit's creation here. I think it has potential, and I will use it in my next tournament (June 9), and let you know how it did...
Jun. 06, 2012  8:37 AM
 
Pretty neat combo dude! Smile
can you put up solo spin times? Wink
Jun. 06, 2012  12:41 PM
 
Nice testing, man! But later, I actually found that Phantom had better Attack capabilities on D125 and AD145 (AD145 taken from Gibraltor's RF variant) as it made better metal contact and could still OS stuff. I mainly used this to OS Basalt combos and KO the occasional Phantom BGrin months ago when they were more popular, but since then, Duo's stolen Phantom's thunder Stamina-wise. That and my Phantom's gotten pretty worn to the point at which I can't even KO Basalt with it anymore, so if anyone wants to test these other Tracks, go ahead, but the results will probably be about same (maybe save for a few more KO's against Stamina).

This was never meant to be used against Attackers. LOL
Jun. 06, 2012  12:54 PM
 
Intersting....

I enjoy thse types of Combo favoring MF myself I may be able to do testing later but my stadiums ae awkward. BB-10 with a dent in it ddoesn't mess up the battle often and then Sonokong attack stadium it's very odd with a different ridge and stuff. I have Duo to test against and will even try to get some attack in but it should fail lol but its worth it to see if it has a chance.
Jun. 06, 2012  3:15 PM
 
(Jun. 06, 2012  6:50 AM)Eternal Blader Wrote: I found a flaw with this combo: You put Phantom in attack mode, which has lots of recoil. Using the sliding shoot against stamina beys is a good choice, but if the stamina bey withstands the attack recoil may take effect and the bey may self KO due to recoil.

Remember though, Phantom's recoil isn't TOO bad to actually affect it THAT badly...

This custom seems to be quite interesting, and yes I also remember seeing similar combos! They just had different tracks being used, while the remaining was the same.

This seems to be a very nice combo, and its actually a surprise that it wasn't discovered earlier, seeing how simple the setup is!

Anyways, I am quite curious to see this go against Attack, which probably it won't do too well.
But still, who knows, this might also do some harm to attackers....
Jun. 06, 2012  4:01 PM
 
To reply to the high-risk, low-reward comment, I very much understand what you are saying, but I have to disagree. While this combo is certainly high-risk due to how important launching it correctly is, it is high-reward because a proper launch means that it will OS any rubber-based bottom (like a normal Stamina type) and that it will KO any opposing Stamina type (which is a much more consistent way to beat Stamina types than praying your Stamina or Defense custom spins for longer). As I said in the OP, this makes this custom a relatively safe (but hard to use) pick in a tournament setting because it can handle almost any opponent that isn't an Attack type.

I did try this custom with AD145, CH120, and the like, but when I put it up against a LTSC utilizing Duo I couldn't KO it consistently like I can with 90. I also tried this custom with a wide variety of Metal Faces, but in the end having no Metal Face provided the best results because the custom tornado stalls longer and generally has more Stamina without one.
Jun. 06, 2012  4:28 PM
 
(Jun. 06, 2012  4:01 PM)Ingulit Wrote: To reply to the high-risk, low-reward comment, I very much understand what you are saying, but I have to disagree. While this combo is certainly high-risk due to how important launching it correctly is, it is high-reward because a proper launch means that it will OS any rubber-based bottom (like a normal Stamina type) and that it will KO any opposing Stamina type (which is a much more consistent way to beat Stamina types than praying your Stamina or Defense custom spins for longer). As I said in the OP, this makes this custom a relatively safe (but hard to use) pick in a tournament setting because it can handle almost any opponent that isn't an Attack type.

I did try this custom with AD145, CH120, and the like, but when I put it up against a LTSC utilizing Duo I couldn't KO it consistently like I can with 90. I also tried this custom with a wide variety of Metal Faces, but in the end having no Metal Face provided the best results because the custom tornado stalls longer and generally has more Stamina without one.

I actually tried this against Duo Cancer AD145 WD but it couldnt KO it. Oddly it was able to OS it Chocked_2?
Jun. 06, 2012  5:40 PM
 
This doesn't surprise me as I've always held "mobile-stamina" Phantom combos in high regard. I've used Phantom in this manner at a variety of heights (preferring TH170 @ 170 with WF, as it just felt more effective for me personally). Your reasoning for 90 is sound, and as you said, this thing (Phantom on any non-gripping tip, obviously) gets wrecked by attackers which I think is the only mark against it.

Overall, I hope what you've done here is open up a new branch of thorough testing on Phantom beyond stock stamina setups, and I will contribute some results as soon as I have the time to do some testing (the weekend probably being the soonest that can happen).
Jun. 06, 2012  6:43 PM
 
This isn't a horrible combo, but I have a feeling that both Gattyaki and aggressive launching with heavy Defense types using BD145/E230 in combination with RDF, RB, or CS–all of which can move aggressively–would be a problem for it due to its lightweight nature. Any skilled Blader would absolutely not let you Tornado Stall him/her for three battles.
Jun. 06, 2012  9:05 PM
 
Those are both very valid points, but I do wish to challenge them:

While I will concede that a successful Gattyaki attack would likely defeat this custom, this bey will be moving so quickly that pulling it off would require extreme luck and skill. Furthermore, I've always held the belief that Gattyaki basically beats just about everything if performed properly, and as such I do not think this custom specifically needs to worry about it any more than other customs; in fact, I think this custom can worry about it less than regular Stamina types that stay mostly immobile. As such, I do not believe a threat of Gattyaki to be a specific detractor to this custom.

Regarding the second point, I'd like to say that if the opponent is forced to launch aggressively with their defense custom to try to counter the tornado stalling approach, then one battle has already been won: they've been forced to use an awkward launch that would require much more skill and concentration to perform correctly, which itself is hard enough in the first place. If they do manage to launch it aggressively, they are now putting their custom much closer to the exits, and as other testers have shown in this thread and in the Phantom discussion, Phantom in Attack mode can very much KO even heavy defense types, especially so close to the exits. As such, if you notice your opponent doing this, simply bank your bey and launch it into a flower pattern, as it will now be much easier to KO the opponent. Finally, launching a heavy defense type aggressively only puts the bey into an offensive pattern for so long, and it's relatively hard to control where exactly it goes, much less hit a fast-moving Phantom. All-in-all, if the opponent does manage to launch a Defense combo aggressively after being tornado stalled round 1 and actually manages to KO this custom, that is a feat of true skill and should be applauded; however, there is very much an answer for round 3 and beyond. Like the point with Gattyaki, this custom probably needs to worry less about such a threat than regular immobile Stamina types. As such, again, I do not think that is a major concern specifically for this custom, though it is a very valid argument for sure.

EDIT: From some initial testing I'm having trouble knocking Phantom out with BD145CS or BD145RDF while shooting Phantom in a flower pattern. Basically the defense types just nudge Phantom a little bit and then go back to being calm in the middle of the stadium while Phantom goes into a tornado stall for the OS. I might not be the best at aggressively launching these tips, though, so if other people could test this too I'd appreciate it.
Jun. 06, 2012  9:41 PM
 
It's nearly impossible to test this sort of thing by yourself. It's even harder than trying to test Attack types for accurate results, in my opinion. There's simply too many variables to account for reliably.

In any case, I'm just not sure why you would ever choose this combo in Stalling Clause over something like MF L Drago Destroy BD145MF, which can do essentially everything this combo can, only better (spin stealing, much heavier, slightly better chance of defeating an Attack type, etc). The only thing it might be better at is outlasting combos such as MF-H Duo Cancer BD145CS, but that seems largely irrelevant when you take a look at the whole picture (and besides, L Drago Destroy can still KO combos like that).
Jun. 06, 2012  9:52 PM
 
This custom has significantly better balance and stamina than LDD BD145MF can possibly dream of. Where LDD has to rely on its incredibly mediocre spin steal capabilities to out spin Defense types, this custom plays the role of a traditional Stamina type and wins without guesswork. Once LDD has been knocked off balance (a very easy thing to do) and BD145 starts scraping, no amount of spin steal can help it. LDD's poor weight distribution also creates issues with BD145 scraping while tornado stalling, further causing it to rely on the fact that it spins in the opposite direction to have a shot at winning. The primary thing the custom you listed has going for it over this one is its weight, but it still doesn't have a great time with Attack types either.

Most importantly, if you are using LDD to tornado stall out a defense type, once LDD reaches the center it will speed the opponent back up to its level because of spin equalization, thus removing the advantage tornado stalling offered it. This custom, when it reaches the center, destabilizes the opponent and still has a ton of stamina left over.

While MF LDD BD145MF fulfills a similar role, yes, I would pick this custom over LDD in a Stalling Clause for the reasons I just listed. I would rather force the opponent to have to use unconventional tactics with their custom to win rather than have my custom's opposite spin direction do some of the work for them.

EDIT: I do want to clarify that I don't think MF LDD BD145MF is a bad custom by any means, but it has very different advantages and disadvantages and, as such, fills a very different role than this custom. It would certainly have a better time if you know your opponent is going for an Attack type during a Stalling Clause, but I feel this custom performs better and more reliably against basically everything else.
Jun. 06, 2012  10:44 PM
 
(Jun. 06, 2012  9:52 PM)Ingulit Wrote: This custom has significantly better balance and stamina than LDD BD145MF can possibly dream of. Where LDD has to rely on its incredibly mediocre spin steal capabilities to out spin Defense types, this custom plays the role of a traditional Stamina type and wins without guesswork. Once LDD has been knocked off balance (a very easy thing to do) and BD145 starts scraping, no amount of spin steal can help it. LDD's poor weight distribution also creates issues with BD145 scraping while tornado stalling, further causing it to rely on the fact that it spins in the opposite direction to have a shot at winning. The only thing the custom you listed has going for it is its weight, but it still doesn't have a great time with Attack types either.

Most importantly, if you are using LDD to tornado stall out a defense type, once LDD reaches the center it will speed the opponent back up to its level because of spin equalization, thus removing the advantage tornado stalling offered it. This custom, when it reaches the center, destabilizes the opponent and still has a ton of stamina left over.

While MF LDD BD145MF fulfills a similar role, yes, I would pick this custom over LDD in a Stalling Clause for the reasons I just listed.

MF L Drago Destroy BD145MF is not built to OS anything, for all of the reasons you listed; the spin stealing (no matter how poor, especially when compared to Meteo) is simply a bonus. It's main function is to provide a reliable way of defeating Stamina types at all heights. Spinning the opposite direction also helps to knock tall TH170 or 230 opponents off balance. It also negates the spin stealing of Meteo and other L Drago combos (which was the main reason I started using it a while back, to be honest. A lot of people in Toronto were using them at the time). As for the weight, not only does it help against Attack types, but also for attempting Gattyaki. The combo we're discussing in this thread does not have that option.

So, perhaps I shouldn't have made the comparison between these two; they're similar, but not the same. Phantom of course has much better Stamina overall; I was never trying to refute that point. I personally just feel it's too easy to counter unless you're using a pure Stamina type. Perhaps this problem could be rectified by using BD145. Did you ever consider trying it? Or does the eventual scraping hinder its ability to OS Defense types?
Jun. 06, 2012  10:56 PM
 
(Jun. 06, 2012  10:44 PM)Kei Wrote: I personally just feel it's too easy to counter unless you're using a pure Stamina type. Perhaps this problem could be rectified by using BD145. Did you ever consider trying it? Or does the eventual scraping hinder its ability to OS Defense types?

I would say that it is not particularly easy to counter, and much harder to plan for than most customs, but of course it's far from invincible and its low weight does certainly matter. I don't personally try to attempt Gattyaki often, but you are right in saying this custom would not perform it as well as heavier customs; however, I'm still of the opinion that Gattyaki, performed at all, is still devastating as long as your bey has a wheel over 40 grams.

I did try BD145, and the reason I didn't use it was not actually because of the scraping (Phantom's balance and natural stamina made this a non-problem, though 90 does have much better stamina); rather, it was because of the fact that I simply couldn't KO low-track Stamina types the way I can with 90. If Phantom isn't low enough, its attack mode means nothing, and that's half of the purpose of this combo. Furthermore, 90 on Phantom puts its contact points in great places against popular Stamina and Defense types. BD145 isn't bad, and the added weight certainly helps, but I've found 90 to be more effective against a wider range of opponents, and it's this versatility that makes this combo what it is.

Since someone asked for this earlier, I just did a few solo spin time tests and it averaged around 5 minutes and 10 seconds.

EDIT: I just tried it some more with BD145, but MF-H Duo Cancer 230MB, a very popular threat that this combo can beat on 90, beat the combo with BD145 up, stole his lunch money, and then insulted his mother. The stamina and height that 90 offers is far more important than the extra weight.
Jun. 06, 2012  11:56 PM
 
(Jun. 06, 2012  10:56 PM)Ingulit Wrote: I don't personally try to attempt Gattyaki often, but you are right in saying this custom would not perform it as well as heavier customs; however, I'm still of the opinion that Gattyaki, performed at all, is still devastating as long as your bey has a wheel over 40 grams.

You don't seem to have ever played in any tournaments, so of course you wouldn't try Gattyaki often! haha

You might be right, but size also matters.

(Jun. 06, 2012  10:56 PM)Ingulit Wrote: I did try BD145, and the reason I didn't use it was not actually because of the scraping (Phantom's balance and natural stamina made this a non-problem, though 90 does have much better stamina); rather, it was because of the fact that I simply couldn't KO low-track Stamina types the way I can with 90. If Phantom isn't low enough, its attack mode means nothing, and that's half of the purpose of this combo. Furthermore, 90 on Phantom puts its contact points in great places against popular Stamina and Defense types. BD145 isn't bad, and the added weight certainly helps, but I've found 90 to be more effective against a wider range of opponents, and it's this versatility that makes this combo what it is.

Oh, so BD145MF does not have problems outspinning Defense types via Tornado Stall?

You do have a point regarding Phantom's Attack Mode, but are low Track Stamina types really that popular? The lowest height I see these days is D125, but usually it's AD145, BD145, B:D, TH170 or 230. Against those heights, I'd be perfectly happy using an Attack type equipped with BD145. If D125 and under was the most popular height, then I would understand, but we're in 2012, not 2010. You're more likely to run into something at the 145+ height than you are something 125 or below. Now, I'm not saying 90 is necessarily bad against all taller heights–and perhaps putting it at the 90 height does in fact enhance Phantom's Attack Mode–but to me, BD145 is more versatile overall when you consider today's metagame.

(Jun. 06, 2012  10:56 PM)Ingulit Wrote: EDIT: I just tried it some more with BD145, but MF-H Duo Cancer 230MB, a very popular threat that this combo can beat on 90, beat the combo with BD145 up, stole his lunch money, and then insulted his mother. The stamina and height that 90 offers is far more important than the extra weight.

This doesn't seem right. BD145 Attack customs should be able to KO something on 230 more efficiently than 90 can.
Jun. 07, 2012  12:09 AM
 
Sorry, I didn't make that clear at all; Phantom ___ 90MF actually wins by OS against MF-H Duo ___ 230MB rather than KO. Duo doesn't have a chance to wobble and destabilize Phantom on 90 like it normally does against taller foes before it finally topples over, so Phantom on 90 out spins Duo (and rarely does still KO it too). I didn't make that clear at all (OS vs KO); apologies for any confusion. Yes, Phantom on BD145 did KO Duo a good bit, but the times Duo got wall saved or otherwise stayed in the arena it wobbled down and severely destabilized Phantom.

I'm looking to go to plenty of tournaments as soon as I can, there just aren't many near where I live Smile

I understand what you're saying about there not being low-track combos anymore, though this custom still seems to work best on 90 partially for that reason (the lower height against most opponents provides destabilization on top of basic smash attack, and it means that Phantom's Attack Mode actually makes full contact and, therefore, a difference). While BD145 is generally a safe part to use, in this custom 90 seems to be a better catch-all and thus a better option during a Stalling Clause (even if low-track customs are rare, lord knows one might pop up sometime, and Phantom's Attack Mode on 90 does some serious work against AD145WD- and TH220-using foes).
Jun. 08, 2012  2:53 AM
 
hmm i cant help wondering about defence combo's resorting to pieces such as rf or otherwise have aggresive movements ik you explained this earlyer, but i'm not compleatly convinced could i see some tests
Jun. 08, 2012  6:04 AM
 
(Jun. 08, 2012  2:53 AM)facade Wrote: hmm i cant help wondering about defence combo's resorting to pieces such as rf or otherwise have aggresive movements ik you explained this earlyer, but i'm not compleatly convinced could i see some tests

Absolutely, though I don't have Diablo (what is currently the main Anti-Attack wheel afaik); I do, however, have a number of Basalts, Death, Duo, a particularly heavy Wing, and an extremely heavy LDG I could test with. I'm assuming MF-H __ <heavy clear wheel here> BD145RF?

I was going to run the gamut of all the top-tiers vs this combo when I get the chance. I'll have some time tomorrow morning for testing, but then I'll be busy through Saturday night. If anyone else wants to test, please do!
Jun. 12, 2012  5:35 AM
 
Sorry it took so long to post test results, but these tests take FOREVER, especially the ones where I tornado stalled. I have some updates:

The clear wheel is being changed from user preference to Hades, as from personal testing I have discovered Hades provides this custom with over a minute of solo spin time. Cancer is close and is an adequate replacement, but Hades is by far the best.

I did testing against as much of the top-tier Stamina, Defense, and Balance as I could. I don't have two Phantoms, so all the stamina testing was against Duo. Since the weight of Phantom and Duo is the deciding factor in the mirror, my Duo is 42.51 grams and my Phantom is 42.28 grams. The only Balance combo I tested against was MF-H Duo Cancer 230MB, and I got some very interesting results indeed; in the OP I added a paragraph after its test results explaining the match-up as I saw it.

I have not done any testing against Attack or Anti-Attack types yet; they'll be next on my list. I wanted to cover all the top-tier customs I could of the two types this custom is designed to beat before moving on to either bad (Attack) or fringe (Anti-Attack) match-ups.

I updated the OP a lot to make it cleaner, and I added all my new test results. Here's the results in a raw form (they're more nicely presented in the OP):
Spoiler (Click to View)

I hope these results prove how good this custom is at the job its designed to do! Again, I'll test Attack and Anti-Attack next (if anyone would want to help me test, that would be incredible).

EDIT: I also added DefStamina88's test results to the OP. DefStamina, how did the custom work for you in your tournament?
Jun. 12, 2012  5:57 AM
 
I'm not sure how big of a threat Basalt is in tournaments nowadays, but regardless of the Track and Bottom of whatever the Basalt Stamina or Defense variant is, tornado-stalling this combo will always land the win. It just beats all Basalt Stamina or Defense setups.
Jun. 12, 2012  6:02 AM
 
(Jun. 12, 2012  5:57 AM)ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) Wrote: I'm not sure how big of a threat Basalt is in tournaments nowadays, but regardless of the Track and Bottom of whatever the Basalt Stamina or Defense variant is, tornado-stalling this combo will always land the win. It just beats all Basalt Stamina or Defense setups.

This is absolutely true, and it's one of the reasons why I originally used this combo. BD145 has a similar problem against this custom, as even with EDS, tornado stalling with this custom very consistently OSs the BD145-using custom since BD145 scrapes at low spin speeds.

I'll update the last paragraph now Smile
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