Now that Xtreme has been shown to be really good at attack, are there any combos out there that can counter it? I decided to start testing to try and begin to figure it out. I used Wyvern and good ole Heavy to start, even though there may be better options for the disk in this combo, it is a good starting point to figure out which driver might be best.
There might be a better name for this thread, but I figure if Needle is good at anything, this will be it



Equipment

Spoiler (Click to View)

B-08 stadium
String Launcher
Beylogger
Wyvern
Valkyrie
Heavy disk x2
Xtreme driver x2
Defense driver
Accel driver
Needle driver
Blow driver
Layers were brand new, disks and drivers had minimal wear

Procedure

Spoiler (Click to View)

-Defensive bey was launched first every round, but in tests with two attack drivers (Xtreme vs Accel, Xtreme and Blow) launches were alternated (Valkyrie on odd launches, Wyvern on even)
-Only rounds where both beys were launched properly were counted
-Like parts are swapped after 10 rounds
-Driver tips were cleaned with a wet paper towel after every few rounds

Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme vs. Wyvern Heavy Defense
Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme: 12 wins (5 BF, 7 KO)
Wyvern Heavy Defense: 8 wins (1 KO, 7 SF)
0 draws
Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme win %: 60%
Average clicks lost per round:
Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme: 1.45
Wyvern Heavy Defense: 2.05
Round by Round

Spoiler (Click to View)

1: Valkyrie wins, KO, V1, W0
2: Wyvern wins, SF, W1, V2
3: Valkyrie wins, BF, V2
4: Wyvern wins, SF, W1, V2
5: Valkyrie wins, KO, V1, W2
6: Wyvern wins, SF, W1, V1
7: Valkyrie wins, BF, V2
8: Valkyrie wins, BF, V1
9: Valkyrie wins, KO, V0, W2
10: Valkyrie wins, KO, V1, W2
11: Wyvern wins, SF, W2, V2
12: Valkyrie wins, BF, V2
13: Wyvern wins, SF, W0, V1
14: Wyvern wins, SF, W1, V0
15: Wyvern wins, KO, W2, V1
16: Wyvern wins, SF, W2, V2
17: Valkyrie wins, KO, V2, W3
18: Valkyrie wins, BF, V2
19: Valkyrie wins, KO, V2, W1
20: Valkyrie wins, KO, V2, W1

We all remember back when Wyvern first came out right? It's awful when it is stationary, probably a bit more awful than even these numbers suggest.



Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme vs. Wyvern Heavy Accel
Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme: 10 wins (4 BF, 6 KO)
Wyvern Heavy Accel: 10 wins (1 KO, 9 SF)
2 draws (2 DBF)
Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme win %: 50%
Average clicks lost per round:
Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme: 1.1
Wyvern Heavy Accel: 1.55
Round by Round

Spoiler (Click to View)

1: Valkyrie wins, BF, V2
2: Wyvern wins, SF, W2, V2
3: Wyvern wins, SF, W0, V0
4: Valkyrie wins, BF, V2
5: Valkyrie wins, KO, V2, W2
6: Wyvern wins, SF, W1, V1
7: Wyvern wins, KO, W0, V1
8: Valkyrie wins, KO, V1, W0
9: Wyvern wins, SF, W2, V1
10: Valkyrie wins, KO, V2, W1
11: Wyvern wins, SF, W1, V1
12: Valkyrie wins, BF, V2
13: Wyvern wins, SF, W1, V2
14: Wyvern wins, SF, W1, V0
15: Wyvern wins, KO, W2, V0
16: Valkyrie wins, KO, V0, W0
17: Wyvern wins, SF, W1, V0
18: Valkyrie wins, KO, V0, W0
19: Valkyrie wins, BF, V2
20: Valkyrie wins, KO, V1, W1

This is a hard one to test, because you alternate launches and the bey you launch last usually wins, even when Accel is last, because, by the time you launch, Xtreme has slowed down a bit and Accel has a better chance to avoid it after being hit once (and also doesn't get insta-KO'ed). I think if the beys were launched at the same time, then Xtreme would be getting a lot more KO's. Either way, this doesn't seem to be that great of a counter.



Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme vs. Wyvern Heavy Xtreme
Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme: 10 wins (5 BF, 5 KO)
Wyvern Heavy Xtreme: 10 wins (1 BF, 3 KO, 6 SF)
0 draws
Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme win %: 50%
Average clicks lost per round:
Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme: 1.4
Wyvern Heavy Xtreme: 1.15
Round by Round

Spoiler (Click to View)

1: Wyvern wins, KO, W0, V1
2: Valkyrie wins, KO, V1, W0
3: Wyvern wins, SF, W1, V0
4: Valkyrie wins, BF, V3
5: Wyvern wins, KO, W0, V0
6: Valkyrie wins, BF, V2
7: Wyvern wins, SF, W1, V1
8: Wyvern wins, BF, W1
9: Wyvern wins, SF, W0, V2
10: Valkyrie wins, BF, V2
11: Wyvern wins, SF, W1, V0
12: Valkyrie wins, KO, V1, W1
13: Wyvern wins, SF, W0, V0
14: Valkyrie wins, BF, V1
15: Wyvern wins, KO, W1, V2
16: Valkyrie wins, KO, V2, W1
17: Valkyrie wins, BF, V1
18: Valkyrie wins, KO, V2, W1
19: Valkyrie wins, BF, V2
20: Wyvern wins, SF, W2, V1

Another hard one to test. It seems whichever gets launched last wins. I think that this would go the other way, though. I think that Xtreme would actually do pretty well as a counter to Xtreme, because they are on even footing and it's layer vs layer, and we know how well Wyvern does against Valkyrie when they are both on Accel (really well).



Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme vs. Wyvern Heavy Blow
Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme: 8 wins (4 BF, 4 KO)
Wyvern Heavy Xtreme: 12 wins (2 KO, 10 SF)
0 draws
Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme win %: 40%
Average clicks lost per round:
Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme: 1.55
Wyvern Heavy Xtreme: 1.5
Round by Round

Spoiler (Click to View)

1: Wyvern wins, SF, W1, V2
2: Wyvern wins, SF, W0, V1
3: Wyvern wins, KO, W2, V2
4: Wyvern wins, SF, W1, V1
5: Wyvern wins, SF, W2, V1
6: Valkyrie wins, KO, V1, W1
7: Valkyrie wins, BF, V2
8: Valkyrie wins, KO, V2, W0
9: Wyvern wins, SF, W1, V1
10: Valkyrie wins, BF, V1
11: Wyvern wins, SF, W2, V2
12: Valkyrie wins, KO, V1, W0
13: Wyvern wins, SF, W1, V1
14: Valkyrie wins, BF, V3
15: Valkyrie wins, BF, V3
16: Wyvern wins, SF, W1, V1
17: Wyvern wins, KO, W1, V3
18: Wyvern wins, SF, W0, V1
19: Wyvern wins, SF, W0, V1
20: Valkyrie wins, KO, V1, W1

Seems to be pretty successful. It seems that the best thing to do is kind of stall around the middle, but not on the ridge. I didn't launch Blow at full power, or it would have stalled around the ridge. I took a little off of it so that it circled a bit tighter. When you do this, Xtreme can't just stall, catch up and KO you.


Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme vs. Wyvern Heavy Needle
Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme: 6 wins (4 BF, 2 KO)
Wyvern Heavy Needle: 14 wins (All SF)
0 draws
Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme win %: 30%
Average clicks lost per round:
Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme: 1.2
Wyvern Heavy Needle: 2.25
Round by Round

Spoiler (Click to View)

1: Valkyrie wins, BF, V1
2: Wyvern wins, SF, W1, V0
3: Wyvern wins, SF, W3, V1
4: Valkyrie wins, BF, V1
5: Wyvern wins, SF, W2, V1
6: Wyvern wins, SF, W3, V1
7: Wyvern wins, SF, W2, V2
8: Wyvern wins, SF, W2, V1
9: Wyvern wins, SF, W1, V2
10: Wyvern wins, SF, W1, V1
11: Valkyrie wins, BF, V2
12: Wyvern wins, SF, W2, V1
13: Wyvern wins, SF, W1, V2
14: Wyvern wins, SF, W1, V2
15: Valkyrie wins, BF, V1
16: Valkyrie wins, KO, V1, W1
17: Wyvern wins, SF, W1, V1
18: Valkyrie wins, KO, V1, W3
19: Wyvern wins, SF, W1, V1
20: Wyvern wins, SF, W3, V1

I launched Needle with a bit of a bank and/or slide at near full power (when I launch it at full power it will stall a bit) when you do this, it gets really good movement circling around the middle, but not up on the ridge. Needle also has a good grip on the stadium floor so it's harder to KO than Blow and, as long as it's moving, it seems to still be able to deflect attacks really well.




Some of these are really hard to test, so definitely take these tests with a big grain of salt and, if you have the means to test them with another person, I would love to see the results. Even more solo tests would be good, as always, to get a different perspective on things, even just a few informal rounds to get your perspective and thoughts on it would be great. I look forward to seeing other people's thoughts and/or tests and exploring this combo further.

Would love to know how it compares to Wyvern Heavy Claw, but cool results! Nice to see that Needle seems to be solid in this area, at least.

Nice results, thank you Zoroaste!

Needle seems to be good for stationary-defense, but I'd be curious to see if it's better than Defense for Stamina. Would you mind testing out Odin Heavy Defense against Odin Heavy Needle?

How's long does it seem to spin for? It'd be awesome to see if it could have good defense but also last against stallers, which I haven't always experienced using Wyvern Heavy Survive/Claw.

Ye that's coo.

Thanks for the tests Zoroaste! Cool to see that Needle may yet have some use, especially considering the usefulness of Jog Ball in MFB. If my new stadium comes in this week I may actually be able to throw in a test or two soon!

Needle seems to be good for stationary-defense, but I'd be curious to see if it's better than Defense for Stamina. Would you mind testing out Odin Heavy Defense against Odin Heavy Needle?

How's long does it seem to spin for? It'd be awesome to see if it could have good defense but also last against stallers, which I haven't always experienced using Wyvern Heavy Survive/Claw.

I was thinking this too - it could potentially balance out defense and stamina. Would love to see these tests.

Ye that's coo.

Riveting addition to the discussion!

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That's not how the Force works.

Thanks for the ideas guys, I have already written them down in my notebook to test. I also forgot to give credit where it is due, 1234Beyblade gave me the idea, talking about how he couldn't wait to try Needle. Good call dude!
Edit: And oh yeah, to answer your question Mitsu, it doesn't seem to have that great of stamina, but it is worth testing
Double edit: I have just been told that JogBall has better stamina than WideBall, I assumed the opposite. Maybe you are on to something Mitsu!

Thanks for the tests on Needle.
I've found it to be a very interesting part; I like how much sharper the needles are compared to the basis of its design, Jog Ball.
Maybe it can work with it's native Evileye part, as a sort of way to OS anti-Attack, with its good teeth and unique shape.

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[font="Proxima Nova Regular", "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][/font]

Awesome tests! I do have one question, though, why did you use Wyvern instead of Odin?

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Awesome tests! I do have one question, though, why did you use Wyvern instead of Odin?

Wyvern is much better for defense than Odin, and since these tests are trying to prove the defense potential of Needle it only makes sense to use the best defense layer in burst.

Needle isn't as aggressive as Jog Ball and returns to the centre relatively quick. I compared it with JB, and the latter moves circles around the ridge a lot more; it probably has to do with the large reinforcements that Needle has and the fact that it's less rounded because of it.

---

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New videos every week.

Awesome tests! I do have one question, though, why did you use Wyvern instead of Odin?

Wyvern is much better for defense than Odin, and since these tests are trying to prove the defense potential of Needle it only makes sense to use the best defense layer in burst.

Oh, I thought Odin was better. Good to now.

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I think Needle will be and interesting part. How about OHN? Any good?

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Just did some Odin Heavy Needle tests. Not looking so good.

Odin Heavy Needle v Valkyrie Force Xtreme

Spoiler (Click to View)

- Beylauncher
- B-09 Burst Stadium
- Odin launched first
- Valkyrie shot with sliding shoot
- Odin slightly worn, Valkyrie almost new, Xtreme almost new

OHN - 6/20, 2 Burst, 3 OS, 1 KO
VFX - 14/20, 8 Burst, 6 KO
5 Ties
Odin Heavy Needle Win Percentage: 30%

I'll try Wyvern Heavy Needle in a bit.

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That's not how the Force works.

Wyvern Heavy Needle tests. This did much better than OHN.

Wyvern Heavy Needle v Valkyrie Force Xtreme

Spoiler (Click to View)

- B-09 Burst Stadium
- Beylauncher
- WHN launched first
- Valkyrie almost new, Xtreme almost new

WHN: 13/20, 1 KO, 12 OS
VFX: 7/20, 3 KO, 4 BST
Wyvern Heavy Needle Win Percentage: 65%

---

That's not how the Force works.

Awesome. Thanks for the tests. This is a very tricky one to test, since it's about avoidance and depends upon the way you launch it, so there are a lot of variables. The more tests the better. Glad to see that yours was pretty much the same as mine

Did another OHN test with drastically different results.

Odin Heavy Needle v Valkyrie Force Xtreme

Spoiler (Click to View)

- B-09 Burst Stadium
- Beylauncher
- Odin shot first
- Valkyrie shot with sliding shoot

OHN - 17/20, 8 OS, 3 KO, 6 Burst
VFX - 3/20, 3 BST
2 Ties
Odin Heavy Needle Win Percentage: 85%

---

That's not how the Force works.

No offense to you (since this kind of variation is normal in Beyblade), but this is why people need to be very careful with accepting a single test as a universal truth.

Thanks for doing the tests at all, though! What do you think caused the huge change?

Did another OHN test with drastically different results.

Odin Heavy Needle v Valkyrie Force Xtreme

Spoiler (Click to View)

- B-09 Burst Stadium
- Beylauncher
- Odin shot first
- Valkyrie shot with sliding shoot

OHN - 17/20, 8 OS, 3 KO, 6 Burst
VFX - 3/20, 3 BST
2 Ties
Odin Heavy Needle Win Percentage: 85%

Is that a mint Valk? It's kind of strange that Odin's bursts tripled.

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Credits To Mitsu For Signature [/font] [/size].

Well, 2 to 6 is not a huge jump in the grand scale of things.

No offense to you (since this kind of variation is normal in Beyblade), but this is why people need to be very careful with accepting a single test as a universal truth.

Thanks for doing the tests at all, though! What do you think caused the huge change?

My only two guesses are that a. Valkyrie had been through about 40 battles before this test, and b. I used a different Needle, but both were pretty much brand new. Valkyries usage might have been the factor, but if I recall Valkyrie only starts to get really frail at around 100 plus battles. I do have another unused Valkyrie, so I might do a final round of tests and compare the numbers.

And yes, I agree. Multiple tests must be compared before any strong consensus is made.

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That's not how the Force works.

Did another OHN test with drastically different results.

Odin Heavy Needle v Valkyrie Force Xtreme

Spoiler (Click to View)

- B-09 Burst Stadium
- Beylauncher
- Odin shot first
- Valkyrie shot with sliding shoot

OHN - 17/20, 8 OS, 3 KO, 6 Burst
VFX - 3/20, 3 BST
2 Ties
Odin Heavy Needle Win Percentage: 85%

No offense to you (since this kind of variation is normal in Beyblade), but this is why people need to be very careful with accepting a single test as a universal truth.

Thanks for doing the tests at all, though! What do you think caused the huge change?

My only two guesses are that a. Valkyrie had been through about 40 battles before this test, and b. I used a different Needle, but both were pretty much brand new. Valkyries usage might have been the factor, but if I recall Valkyrie only starts to get really frail at around 100 plus battles. I do have another unused Valkyrie, so I might do a final round of tests and compare the numbers.

And yes, I agree. Multiple tests must be compared before any strong consensus is made.

thanks for test, test results were little surprising [blazing actually] as brad said i shoud wait for more test to conform [i will do test once my arrive odin]

anyway i really want to see test on ORN as ring is little less prone to Burst due to less weight [see test done on ring and see Wombat's awsome thread]

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[/spoiler]

Did one last OHN test against a brand new Valkyrie.

Odin Heavy Needle v Valkyrie Force Xtreme

Spoiler (Click to View)

- B-09 Beystadium
- Beylauncher
- OHN shot first
- VFX shot with sliding shoot
- Valkyrie is brand new

OHN: 14/20, 5 KO, 8 OS, 1 Burst
VFX: 6/20, 2 KO, 4 Burst
9 Ties
Odin Heavy Needle Win Percentage: 70%

So this test is in between the two I did, but definitely in Odin's favor still. I don't know what caused Odin to be thrashed so badly in my first test. However, I'm definitely starting to see Needle as a good defensive driver, but I want to do more tests against VSX, VHX, and VHA to verify.

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That's not how the Force works.

Yeah it has really good movement, but the testing is all gonna depend on how you launch it, and of course how you launch Valkyrie. When you bank and/or slide it a little it seems to be able to get into and stay in that good middle ground, between the middle and the ridge and stay there long enough to avoid the big hits early on

Yeah it has really good movement, but the testing is all gonna depend on how you launch it, and of course how you launch Valkyrie. When you bank and/or slide it a little it seems to be able to get into and stay in that good middle ground, between the middle and the ridge and stay there long enough to avoid the big hits early on

Yeah, most of OHN's wins came from when it got that slight momentum going, allowing it to avoid Valk or deflect its hits better.

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That's not how the Force works.

Yeah, I think Needle and Blow are gonna be the two new defensive drivers for now, because they can occupy that mid space and kinda "halfway stall". That would probably be a good one to test next, which one has better stamina and/or can occupy that mid space longer? Needle or Blow?