It's extemely hard to tell the difference, and at the least there'd be a mix of the two, not just plain upper attack.
MFB Upper Attack - A Theory
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(Jun. 03, 2011 5:46 AM)th!nk Wrote: It's extemely hard to tell the difference, and at the least there'd be a mix of the two, not just plain upper attack.
just as i thought, and i do agree a bit that there is a mix, and if there isn't it is most likely upper smash or the lifting part of upper attack
i just do not think that you should always say that it is upper smash and not upper attack when it is a chance that it is attack
(again, i do understand that upper attack/lifting with ramps is piratically useless in MFB, but that doesn't mean it isn't there)
Thing is, he's got stuff being launched far, and if it's bakushin, it's smash, basically for sure, and the factor that is making the difference/the important part is the smash, not the upper atk.
(Jun. 03, 2011 6:41 AM)th!nk Wrote: Thing is, he's got stuff being launched far, and if it's bakushin, it's smash, basically for sure, and the factor that is making the difference/the important part is the smash, not the upper atk.
well i did say that it is most likely smash from bakushin
i think upper attack should be able to smash fairly far
example: if a beyblade has no friction to the ground it has little/no defence (less defence, more knockback/recoil, when in the air you have no friction. upper attack is meant to lift and then smash when the opponent is in the air (when they have no defence)
anyways, i need to sleep now, it is really late here
True, but given the weight and recoil of mfb's, again, it's far less effective than smash, and so if you're ko'ing regularly, it's more likely the smash.
IMO, MFB beys are too tall to do upper attacks, so we'll need some smash power to get them under the defense or stamina beys, right?
In some informal tests with Hell+BD145(Boost mode), Screw basically doesn't do anything to the upper attacks but, surprisingly, Capricorne, with its 'hooks' hitting BD145 and knocks it out, even the RPM is really low.
And I'm sure it's not smash as it stays under Hell for a few seconds.
In some informal tests with Hell+BD145(Boost mode), Screw basically doesn't do anything to the upper attacks but, surprisingly, Capricorne, with its 'hooks' hitting BD145 and knocks it out, even the RPM is really low.
And I'm sure it's not smash as it stays under Hell for a few seconds.
Nope, I am really sorry, but that theory is completely wrong.... MFB beys are not at all 'tall'.... Also, we can easily lower the height by changing the track....
Yes, your second paragraph is something to think about, as in that case, there is a metal to plastic contact. Still, I think th!nk would be a better person, to say whether its upper attack or upper smash, as I am still confused between the two....
EDIT: Aw, my bad.... I thought that Screw's hooks lift the bey, but actually he said Capricorne.... so, sorry, it plastic to plastic contact....
Yes, your second paragraph is something to think about, as in that case, there is a metal to plastic contact. Still, I think th!nk would be a better person, to say whether its upper attack or upper smash, as I am still confused between the two....
EDIT: Aw, my bad.... I thought that Screw's hooks lift the bey, but actually he said Capricorne.... so, sorry, it plastic to plastic contact....
![[Image: janstarblastsignature.jpg]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-imUVk9PErhw/Tb5jNvGKumI/AAAAAAAAAFw/8iSsYhW7vEw/janstarblastsignature.jpg)
It's really confusing. That's not really upper though, that's plastic on plastic smash. Yes, it's under there for a while, but that's because there's very little recoil. Capricorne doesn't really have proper slopes.
No idea how you're getting KO's with it though, what are the actual combo's you're using?
FWIW, Capricorne isn't the best CW for Screw, and the reason Screw isn't doing much is probably because you're using a CW that is getting in the way of it's slopes. As I've long said, and most people seem to agree, Pisces or Horogium are the only CW's for Screw, which allow it to use it's Upwards Smash as best as it can.
Still, trying to hit BD145 from below generally does very little, the extra weight of Hell makes it very hard to lift, and BD145 dampens most smash.
And as Jan said, you're completely wrong about the height thing, no idea where you got that idea, MFB can generally be way lower than plastics etc.
No idea how you're getting KO's with it though, what are the actual combo's you're using?
FWIW, Capricorne isn't the best CW for Screw, and the reason Screw isn't doing much is probably because you're using a CW that is getting in the way of it's slopes. As I've long said, and most people seem to agree, Pisces or Horogium are the only CW's for Screw, which allow it to use it's Upwards Smash as best as it can.
Still, trying to hit BD145 from below generally does very little, the extra weight of Hell makes it very hard to lift, and BD145 dampens most smash.
And as Jan said, you're completely wrong about the height thing, no idea where you got that idea, MFB can generally be way lower than plastics etc.
(Jun. 03, 2011 12:48 AM)lord Wolfblade Wrote: i just tried to see if big bang could lift earth bull 145FS (to lazy to find my SD/WD), it lifted it like once, and it just floor scraped constantly compared to midnight and storm
unfortunately i have no idea what mode is what... but i think i was using upper mode
the other funny thing is that my storm and midnight pushed/smashed earth bull farther, and more often then big bang lol
bringing this back up because it is kinda missed
yeah, bigbang is not good for the lifting part of upper attack (so to all those who said bigbang would be good for this
). i was also going to try hell out, but i misplaced it
(Jun. 03, 2011 2:58 PM)lord Wolfblade Wrote:(Jun. 03, 2011 12:48 AM)lord Wolfblade Wrote: i just tried to see if big bang could lift earth bull 145FS (to lazy to find my SD/WD), it lifted it like once, and it just floor scraped constantly compared to midnight and storm
unfortunately i have no idea what mode is what... but i think i was using upper mode
the other funny thing is that my storm and midnight pushed/smashed earth bull farther, and more often then big bang lol
bringing this back up because it is kinda missed
yeah, bigbang is not good for the lifting part of upper attack (so to all those who said bigbang would be good for this
Just asking, but why don't you use a lighter bey against the bey which might exhibit upper? If you could do that, it would actually be more interesting....
(Jun. 03, 2011 3:27 PM)Janstarblast Wrote: Just asking, but why don't you use a lighter bey against the bey which might exhibit upper? If you could do that, it would actually be more interesting....
earth is the best choice though as anthing lighter will just be knocked around
also, earth is the best shape for this IMO
Yeah, Sniper asked me to try Hell out on a certain track against a certain blade, which I'm afraid I haven't had time to do (loads of personal stuff), and probably won't be able to soon (as I doubt my TT attack can come with me)... Which reminds me, I owe him an apology 
Hell is straight-up upper smash, though, look at the weight distribution, the recoil, it's smash all the way.
I do believe earlier someone (McFrown?) mentioned that Upper Attack should not be troubled by a "wobbler", while Upwards Smash would be. It might not be a complete test, given "wobblers" aren't that great (Yeah, basalt has that effect, but still, it's not unbeatable with upwards smash), but it might help a little in some cases. Basically, if you're trouble by a wobbler, it's probably not Upper Attack (if you aren't, it's not definitely Upper Attack, though).
Hell is straight-up upper smash, though, look at the weight distribution, the recoil, it's smash all the way.
I do believe earlier someone (McFrown?) mentioned that Upper Attack should not be troubled by a "wobbler", while Upwards Smash would be. It might not be a complete test, given "wobblers" aren't that great (Yeah, basalt has that effect, but still, it's not unbeatable with upwards smash), but it might help a little in some cases. Basically, if you're trouble by a wobbler, it's probably not Upper Attack (if you aren't, it's not definitely Upper Attack, though).
(Jun. 03, 2011 2:39 PM)th!nk Wrote: It's really confusing. That's not really upper though, that's plastic on plastic smash. Yes, it's under there for a while, but that's because there's very little recoil. Capricorne doesn't really have proper slopes.
No idea how you're getting KO's with it though, what are the actual combo's you're using?
FWIW, Capricorne isn't the best CW for Screw, and the reason Screw isn't doing much is probably because you're using a CW that is getting in the way of it's slopes. As I've long said, and most people seem to agree, Pisces or Horogium are the only CW's for Screw, which allow it to use it's Upwards Smash as best as it can.
Still, trying to hit BD145 from below generally does very little, the extra weight of Hell makes it very hard to lift, and BD145 dampens most smash.
And as Jan said, you're completely wrong about the height thing, no idea where you got that idea, MFB can generally be way lower than plastics etc.
The actual combo is MF-L Screw Capricorne 85F.
And I have to say, an upper attack is actually a smash with much force on Z axis, less on both X and Y. It doesn't have to be a slope. That's why I said Capricorne does the uppers.
I get the idea of MFB beys are too tall to perform upper attack from this particular Screw combo against 145 height beys. As it is MFBs compared to MFBs, they'll be too tall to perform upper.
Or shall I compare MFBs with the plastics?
Look, Anything at an 85 height can get under 145 quite easily.
Comparatively, the heights aren't very different between MFB vs MFB and Plastic V Plastic, MFB's can actually get under opponents better, due to the much shorter tracks available.
Read This, along with my post on the differences earlier in the thread, and hopefully I won't have to explain definitions any more. What you're talking about is smash, not "Upper Attack". This is exactly what I explained when I posted about the difference...
Upper Attack uses a slope, and forces the opponent up it, whereas upper smash doesn't make them ride up a slope, though it can use slopes to flip/lift, it's smashing, not smoothly lifting. It's a small difference and hard to explain, but the implications are huge, as I described in my post. That is the main issue. With upper attack, you want rotational velocity, with upper smash, movement speed is far more useful (see the smash attack article for info on that, I guess). Also, read this, FULLY.
As we're dealing with smash attack in an upwards direction, we want to maximise movement speed, rather than spin velocity, as the tradeoff for spin velocity is increased weight, which means lower speed. As we don't aim to lift them all the way up a slope as we do in upper attack, getting a full rotation in (the point of rotational velocity) is not useful.
That is the distinction.
Comparatively, the heights aren't very different between MFB vs MFB and Plastic V Plastic, MFB's can actually get under opponents better, due to the much shorter tracks available.
Read This, along with my post on the differences earlier in the thread, and hopefully I won't have to explain definitions any more. What you're talking about is smash, not "Upper Attack". This is exactly what I explained when I posted about the difference...
Upper Attack uses a slope, and forces the opponent up it, whereas upper smash doesn't make them ride up a slope, though it can use slopes to flip/lift, it's smashing, not smoothly lifting. It's a small difference and hard to explain, but the implications are huge, as I described in my post. That is the main issue. With upper attack, you want rotational velocity, with upper smash, movement speed is far more useful (see the smash attack article for info on that, I guess). Also, read this, FULLY.
As we're dealing with smash attack in an upwards direction, we want to maximise movement speed, rather than spin velocity, as the tradeoff for spin velocity is increased weight, which means lower speed. As we don't aim to lift them all the way up a slope as we do in upper attack, getting a full rotation in (the point of rotational velocity) is not useful.
That is the distinction.
(Jun. 03, 2011 3:30 PM)lord Wolfblade Wrote:THIS LONG POST IS PRETTY USELESS. SO, IF YOU WISH TO SAVE TIME, I SUGGEST YOU TO READ THE BOLDED PART ONLY, AS THAT'S THE ONLY THING THAT IS KINDA USEFUL....(Jun. 03, 2011 3:27 PM)Janstarblast Wrote: Just asking, but why don't you use a lighter bey against the bey which might exhibit upper? If you could do that, it would actually be more interesting....
earth is the best choice though as anthing lighter will just be knocked around
also, earth is the best shape for this IMO
Ah, OK, well yes, I just realized that you are correct... Yes, Earth has the best shape for that matter....
btw, as we all know, the beys should be spinning in the same direction for upper attack.
The left spinners are beys, which can just ATTACK! So, I tried to spin LLD with a Right Spin Launcher, against a Basalt Horogium 145WD(my friend's), to see if there is any Upper attack... My LLD100HF was in Upper Mode. Um, btw, these tests were pretty useless. Well, they didn't solve the purpose for which I actually tested them...
So, to make it kinda formal-
Stadium- Beyblade old season magnestadium(TT)
Results(not actually required, but still)
LLD win rate- 100% (My friend is really BAD at launching!)
Still, the only thing that seemed to be impressive, was that LLD was TOO aggressive, and spun uncontrollably.... Still, it produced the highest amount of Smash attack I have ever seen! It felt like it would create a hole in the wall if I launched it more powerfully! So actually, there was just no Upper seen. But, I realized, that LLD's slopes would actually be in action if I spin them left.... And that's the reason, why this test was pretty useless.... Yes, it did put up a great show, and entertained us (me and my friend) a lot. Too much smash attack, but no Upper. Yes, the right spin launcher was modified(My friend had one with broken hooks) and not LLD.
Basalt would be best for testing this out, because if the MW in question doesn't have the ability to Upper Smash/Attack Basalt, it is useless.
Now that its mentioned, Th!nk, Upper smash makes a lot of sense considering Lightning LDrago has some potent amounts of it, though its spinning in the opposite direction of the defensive bey.
Now that its mentioned, Th!nk, Upper smash makes a lot of sense considering Lightning LDrago has some potent amounts of it, though its spinning in the opposite direction of the defensive bey.
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Mmm, but Basalt shuts down so many things because of it's weight. It's basically what I said before about wobblers, but yeah, basalt's weight should cause problems for upper attack, as it'll also usually have a higher spin velocity/RPM than the opponent due to greater weight, meaning upper attack is weakened/ineffective (apparently), plus lifting that weight would be quite hard, given most of the wheels we're talking about.
So, while it's great for testing their practicality, for the theoretical discussion this has become, due to the limitations of true Upper Attack, it's not-so-good.
Of course, I could be wrong now, I'm a little tired
And yep, direction means very little as again, you're not getting them to ride the slope, you're hitting them upwards. Also why LDrago works so well. I guess destabilisers are doing something similar, as they're just off-balancing opponents, not lifting them, though I'm not 100% sure on that just yet.
And as I seem to need to restate this every couple of posts, the implications re: weight, facebolts, and the like are the main issue here, and the reason people need to avoid confusing Upper Attack and Upwards/Upper Smash/Smash in a Upwards Direction.
So, while it's great for testing their practicality, for the theoretical discussion this has become, due to the limitations of true Upper Attack, it's not-so-good.
Of course, I could be wrong now, I'm a little tired
And yep, direction means very little as again, you're not getting them to ride the slope, you're hitting them upwards. Also why LDrago works so well. I guess destabilisers are doing something similar, as they're just off-balancing opponents, not lifting them, though I'm not 100% sure on that just yet.
And as I seem to need to restate this every couple of posts, the implications re: weight, facebolts, and the like are the main issue here, and the reason people need to avoid confusing Upper Attack and Upwards/Upper Smash/Smash in a Upwards Direction.
@JanstarblastFirst up u used a magnestadium and then u also spun L-Drago in right spin mode...so both of these wont get counted in the actual game we play..they are both illegal(as far as I know..correct me if I am wrong)..so ur test doesnt prove anything much because LLD is supposed to have a good smash anyhow...
and my tests with Horogium always turn out to be useless because I dont know why but somehow I seem to have forgotten launching attacking beys but when I tried Storm Pegasis 105 FB(it is actually my flattened ball tip which performs much like FB so I use it like FB)...so My Pegasis was able to stay under Basalt for sometime but then either Basalt would crash into it making it stop..but it hapened only twice in case of this bey against eagle that it acted like a destabilizer (dont know how) and kept attacking the spin track for soetime and then moved away so it won almost 70% of the time(these tests are at least 3 months old when I was able to properly launch my attacking beys with sliding shot)
and my tests with Horogium always turn out to be useless because I dont know why but somehow I seem to have forgotten launching attacking beys but when I tried Storm Pegasis 105 FB(it is actually my flattened ball tip which performs much like FB so I use it like FB)...so My Pegasis was able to stay under Basalt for sometime but then either Basalt would crash into it making it stop..but it hapened only twice in case of this bey against eagle that it acted like a destabilizer (dont know how) and kept attacking the spin track for soetime and then moved away so it won almost 70% of the time(these tests are at least 3 months old when I was able to properly launch my attacking beys with sliding shot)
(Jun. 03, 2011 4:08 PM)Dan Wrote:(Jun. 03, 2011 4:03 PM)lord Wolfblade Wrote: upper attack already is kinda useless (but still cool), and basalt should be to heavy.
(Jun. 03, 2011 4:01 PM)Dan Wrote: If the MW in question doesn't have the ability to Upper Smash/Attack Basalt, it is useless.
i know, what i said was about your post
in MFB upper attack is cool, but not as powerful or as easy to get then smash, making it useless for competitive use
Um, reply to ongoing conversation-
Well, yeah, its true that what I did is nothing but an illegal test. Still, to satisfy the conditions to produce Upper Attack, I had to do it... I really trust in L Drago's potent in Upper (attack/smash) and that's the reason, why I tried it out... Well, I hope I am not proved wrong... Just if we manage to get a Defensive left spin bey, I think LLD's potential would finally be noticed....
lord- Quite true.
Well, yeah, its true that what I did is nothing but an illegal test. Still, to satisfy the conditions to produce Upper Attack, I had to do it... I really trust in L Drago's potent in Upper (attack/smash) and that's the reason, why I tried it out... Well, I hope I am not proved wrong... Just if we manage to get a Defensive left spin bey, I think LLD's potential would finally be noticed....
lord- Quite true.
(Jun. 03, 2011 4:09 PM)SAMKUL95 Wrote: *snip*It was a purely theoretical test, so what he did was absolutely fine, but as he stated, he didn't realise LLD's slopes aren't active in right spin until he made his post.
Also, a flattened Ball tip won't act anything like FB, FB is an extremely fast tip, it's like XF, marginally slower, but can tornado stall longer (from Deikailo's vid).
jan, Lightning uses Upwards Smash, not upper attack, if it were reversed, MAYBE, but yeah. And a left spin Defense bey would be awkward, as it'd likely lose to Fang, Beat, Gravity, etc etc. That said, a left spin Stamina bey, basically, a proper MFB Zombie (bearing core, Rubber tip like in HWS) would be great.
If everyone could keep in mind that actual Upper Attack and the discussion we're having about it is mainly theoretical/just experimental, not for competitive viability/use, it'd probably save us a fair bit of effort explaining that, no offence :3
Well actually I am planning to try the same tests with my FS tip today and also with my BBP instead of Storm...dont know why but it seems BBP might have potential due to its weight and width so it may have just enough spin velocity to have a proper attack(at least more than Storm)..and FS will also help in the movement required for the upper attack.
@th!nk...realized that so I am going to test with FS instead..need to get it fixed..it broke during my tourney
@th!nk...realized that so I am going to test with FS instead..need to get it fixed..it broke during my tourney
Again, too much recoil/short impact time, BBP doesn't get under stuff properly, the weight distribution is better for smash, and the slopes are quite steep. They're still using upwards smash... Are people not reading my explanations about the differences or something?