(Jun. 07, 2014 6:23 PM)Woumb@ Wrote:What about on Duo SA165? I have seen and used it multiple times.(Jun. 07, 2014 6:19 PM)RagerBlade Wrote:(Jun. 07, 2014 6:15 PM)TheWhiteTiger Wrote: Generally, WD and EWD perform a bit better than BWD, but however I don't recall them ever used together in the first place.What do you mean by "I don't recall them ever used together in the first place"? Do you mean you don't remember BWD on the Top Tier list?
I know the combo BillyBlast used to win Colosseum was MF-something Duo Bull W145BWD, and I know it was at least considered for the list for a while, but that's the only time I've seen someone use it in real life.
MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion
(Jun. 07, 2014 6:27 PM)RagerBlade Wrote:(Jun. 07, 2014 6:23 PM)Woumb@ Wrote:What about on Duo SA165? I have seen and used it multiple times.(Jun. 07, 2014 6:19 PM)RagerBlade Wrote: What do you mean by "I don't recall them ever used together in the first place"? Do you mean you don't remember BWD on the Top Tier list?
I know the combo BillyBlast used to win Colosseum was MF-something Duo Bull W145BWD, and I know it was at least considered for the list for a while, but that's the only time I've seen someone use it in real life.
I never recall it even being discussed hardly. Still EWD's a much better option and WD's a bit better.
(Jun. 07, 2014 7:02 PM)TheWhiteTiger Wrote:(Jun. 07, 2014 6:27 PM)RagerBlade Wrote:(Jun. 07, 2014 6:23 PM)Woumb@ Wrote: I know the combo BillyBlast used to win Colosseum was MF-something Duo Bull W145BWD, and I know it was at least considered for the list for a while, but that's the only time I've seen someone use it in real life.What about on Duo SA165? I have seen and used it multiple times.
I never recall it even being discussed hardly. Still EWD's a much better option and WD's a bit better.
Duo SA165 EWD/BWD is really good in Zero-G; as far as Standard- EWD and WD are used more and are generally better, as they have more balance than BWD.
![[Image: 9ff5d708-ada9-4d9e-a353-d60f3c2fc6a2_zpsf8dc7f76.jpg]](http://s1303.photobucket.com/user/Bakubey13/media/9ff5d708-ada9-4d9e-a353-d60f3c2fc6a2_zpsf8dc7f76.jpg.html)
TheBlackDragon Wrote:
Replace all "E230s" with "E230 (boost)"
ATTACK
Add LRF to all Attack customs besides flash
remove RF from all bahamida customs.
Wyvang
- {MSF{-H}} Wyvang Wyvang (GB145/W145/H145) (R2F/RF)
- {MSF{-H}} Wyvang Dragooon SA165[Zero-G Attack] (R2F/RF/LRF)
Balro
- {MSF{-H}} Balro Balro (CH120/D125/T125/W145) (RF/R2F)
Bahamdia
- {MSF-M/MSF-L} Bahamdia Dragooon BD145 (LRF/R2F/RF)
Flash
- MF-H Flash (Orion/Escolpio/Pisces/Beelzeb) (GB145/H145/S130/CH120) (R2F/RF)
- MF-H Flash (Orion/Escolpio/Pisces/Beelzeb) W145 MF
DEFENSE
Add MSF-L to all Genbull customs
Duo
- MF-H Duo (Aquario/Cancer/Hades/Cygnus) BD145 (RDF/RB)
- MF-H Duo (Aquario/Cancer/Hades/Cygnus) E230 (RDF/RSF/RB/CS)
Revizer/Killerken
- MSF-H (Revizer/Killerken) (Revizer/Killerken) BD145 (RDF/RB/CS/RSF)
- MSF-H Revizer (Revizer/Killerken) E230 (RDF/RSF/CS/RB)
Genbull
- MSF-H Revizer/Genbull Genbull E230 (RDF/RB/RSF/CS)
- MSF-H (Revizer/Genbull) Genbull BD145 (RDF/RB/RSF)
STAMINA
Duo 230MB belongs in balance
Add Phantom Hades/Cygnus/Cancer W145 EWD/WD
Add Girgo/Genbull/Revizer Dragooon B: D
Duo
- Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
- Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) (TH170/230) (D/SD/TB)
- Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) SR200 TB
- Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) B
- Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) 160 PD
- Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) SA165[Normal] EWD
- MF(-M/-H) Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) 230 MB
Genbull
- Genbull Genbull SR200 (TB/CS)
- Genbull Genbull TH170 (TB/CS)
Dragooon
- {MSF{-H}} (Revizer/Genbull/Killerken/Girago) Dragooon SA165[Normal] EWD
- MSF-L Girago Dragooon SA165[Zero-G Attack] EWD
BALANCE
- (Girago/Genbull) Genbull E230 MB
- Girago Girago E230 MB
- MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang BD145 RSF
- MF-L Phantom Cygnus 85 MF
- MSF-H Gryph Gryph E230 BSF
- {MF{-L}} Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) F230* (CF/GCF)
- {MSF{-L}} (Genbull/Girago/Revizer/Killerken) Dragooon F230* (CF/GCF)
- {MSF{-L}} Genbull Genbull F230* (CF/GCF)
- MF-H Diablo (Kerbecs/Unicorno II) BD145 RF
- MSF-(H/L) Girago Girago BD145 RF
- MSF-H Wyvang Dragooon BD145 RF
- MSF-H Wyvang Dragooon BD145 RDF
- {MSF-H} (Revizer/Killerken) Dragooon SA165[Normal] RDF
- Genbull Dragooon T125 GCF
* F230 must be one of the orange ones from ZGRBV3, not the brown red, or the Hasbro Orange ones.
All changes to be made are in Red
![[Image: 20af95v.png]](https://i61.tinypic.com/20af95v.png)
![[Image: 29c0thl.png]](https://i60.tinypic.com/29c0thl.png)
What do people think?
Spoiler (Click to View)
I don't understand why you'd take off Duo 160PD with the unbelievable pure stamina that customization has. Also taking off RF for all Bahamdia customs, it performs quite the same as R2F/LRF, plus with the slight added recoil handling I do believe RF has over the variants. Also, E230 is good in either mode really, whether its for destabilization or defense purposes.
However, for defensive purposes, E230's upper mode is superior due to it's ability to take the burden of the hits from taller setups than the lower mode is able to. Sorry if this doesn't make sense, I'm typing these posts in between sets at the gym. If it doesn't, I'll correct it later.
it's because duo 160 PD is outclassed by duo sa165 ewd/wd, and i kinda agree with you on the bahamdia costoms lol
In a competitive situation -> Duo SA165EWD is mostly a counter to the same set up with Dragooon (or any Dragooon spin stealer really), in my honest opinion. I never really see it used purely for stamina. Duo 160PD still has the upper edge for stamina. (Note I'm not suggesting Duo SA165EWD is not a stamina custom lolz).
I agree with Tri on this one. There isn't really a reason why RF doesn't work on Bahamdia attack set ups. Also I like Duo 160 PD and think it should stay on the list, what is the reason you think it doesn't belong Ocean?
Edit: I agree with Wombat's post in the advanced form about removing Gryph^2 E230 BSF as we haven't seen that much tournament use with it.
Edit: I agree with Wombat's post in the advanced form about removing Gryph^2 E230 BSF as we haven't seen that much tournament use with it.
Oh, that's why I could have sworn I posted about this before. The list is in two places.
I agree that RF should be left on, Bahamdia only has those two main contact points, so solid hits would be doing it some favors.
Most likely becuase Duo 160PD hasn't been extensively tested IMO.
All for removing Gryph^2 E230BSF, BSF just kills the custom.
Most likely becuase Duo 160PD hasn't been extensively tested IMO.
All for removing Gryph^2 E230BSF, BSF just kills the custom.
Just thought I'd respond to these suggestions posted by Wombat in the advanced forum.
1. Add H145 to MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang BD145RSF.
-Not positive on this one, BD145 really adds a kick, which helps against opposing attack types especially. More recoil, not a good idea, especially since RSF isn't the best with staying in the arena when recoil plays against you because of its relative ease to go over the tornado ridge from big hits in my opinion.
2. Add LRF to Wyvang Wyvang Attack combo, and pretty much all Attack combos where the RFs are interchangeable.
-Honeslty, not sure why it isn't like this already. All 3 perform relatively the same.
3. Add D125 to Genbull Dragooon T125GCF. (Credit to Kai-V)
-A defnite yes, I Don't if who originally posted the combo thought T125 actually helped in the movement of air, but it deserves a spot, especially since both just have "gimmicks" that decorate the track. I would honestly also argue S130 and a regular 125 could be used, from personal use.
4. Remove MSF-H Gryph Gryph E230 BSF. I've never seen show up in a tournament or on the Winning Combinations thread.
-Yes, I don't have two Gryphs but I've tried variants of this and I can't seem toget qute the same results (plus as said, use is a factor). The Genbull destabilizers are much more popular.
5. Someone said that Duo 230MB belongs in Balance, not Stamina.
-I would think its more balancy, just because its used as a wobbler to destabilize instead of really outlast the opponent.
6. Add Revizer/Killerken Dragooon B
. It's honestly just as good, if not better, than SA165EWD/W2D.
-Precession wise, I think B has the upper hand as well, but its not as consistent seeing as B never seems to perform the same between people. SA165EWD is consistent as long as your EWD isn't jank, which isn't as rare as the always occurring bad B's.
7. Either Remove CS from the Genbull Stamina combos, since it is a Defense tip, or move the entire combo to Balance.
-CS actually gives quite a bit of stamina to Genbull Gwnbull and Duo especailly on SR200, so I'd say its fine where it is at.
8. I know TBD won't agree with this, but I think SD and CF need to go. For whatever height you use, there is always a better D-series tip, and GCF was shown to be better than CF due to more surface area.
You should probably point out that the Hasbro orange F230 should not be used either.
-I suppose I'm with TBD then. The D series tips all give great stamina, and the effect is only very well shown at specific heights like 230, not neccisarily all. With GCF, I've always preferred it, but CF also performs relatively the same. The speed difference from the different surface areas can help in specific combos like Genbull Dragooon T125GCF, but on F230, I don't think it really matters.
1. Add H145 to MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang BD145RSF.
-Not positive on this one, BD145 really adds a kick, which helps against opposing attack types especially. More recoil, not a good idea, especially since RSF isn't the best with staying in the arena when recoil plays against you because of its relative ease to go over the tornado ridge from big hits in my opinion.
2. Add LRF to Wyvang Wyvang Attack combo, and pretty much all Attack combos where the RFs are interchangeable.
-Honeslty, not sure why it isn't like this already. All 3 perform relatively the same.
3. Add D125 to Genbull Dragooon T125GCF. (Credit to Kai-V)
-A defnite yes, I Don't if who originally posted the combo thought T125 actually helped in the movement of air, but it deserves a spot, especially since both just have "gimmicks" that decorate the track. I would honestly also argue S130 and a regular 125 could be used, from personal use.
4. Remove MSF-H Gryph Gryph E230 BSF. I've never seen show up in a tournament or on the Winning Combinations thread.
-Yes, I don't have two Gryphs but I've tried variants of this and I can't seem toget qute the same results (plus as said, use is a factor). The Genbull destabilizers are much more popular.
5. Someone said that Duo 230MB belongs in Balance, not Stamina.
-I would think its more balancy, just because its used as a wobbler to destabilize instead of really outlast the opponent.
6. Add Revizer/Killerken Dragooon B
. It's honestly just as good, if not better, than SA165EWD/W2D.-Precession wise, I think B
has the upper hand as well, but its not as consistent seeing as B never seems to perform the same between people. SA165EWD is consistent as long as your EWD isn't jank, which isn't as rare as the always occurring bad B's.7. Either Remove CS from the Genbull Stamina combos, since it is a Defense tip, or move the entire combo to Balance.
-CS actually gives quite a bit of stamina to Genbull Gwnbull and Duo especailly on SR200, so I'd say its fine where it is at.
8. I know TBD won't agree with this, but I think SD and CF need to go. For whatever height you use, there is always a better D-series tip, and GCF was shown to be better than CF due to more surface area.
You should probably point out that the Hasbro orange F230 should not be used either.
-I suppose I'm with TBD then. The D series tips all give great stamina, and the effect is only very well shown at specific heights like 230, not neccisarily all. With GCF, I've always preferred it, but CF also performs relatively the same. The speed difference from the different surface areas can help in specific combos like Genbull Dragooon T125GCF, but on F230, I don't think it really matters.
Phantom Gasher 230TB Vs. Duo Gasher SA165EWD
PG: 1(KO)
DG: 9(1KO, 8OS)
Ties: 2
Phantom 230TB Win Rate: 10%
Phantom Gasher 230D Vs. Phantom Gasher 230SD
D: 16(4KO, 12OS)
SD: 4(4 KO)
Ties: 3
Phantom 230D Win Rate: 80%
MSF-H Gryph Gryph E230BSF Vs. Duo Gasher SA165EWD
GG: 0
DG: 10(All OS)
Ties: 0
Gryph Gryph Win Rate: 0%
Proof of Parts:
I'll post my thoughts on Wombat's post in the Advanced Forum later.
1. Add H145 to MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang BD145RSF.
-I believe more testing should be done. Other than some tournament usage? I don't recall any tests. I'm sure H145 would allow a sliding shoot to be preformed easier, but I'm not sure if it will hold up to attack testing.
2. Add LRF to Wyvang Wyvang Attack combo, and pretty much all Attack combos where the RFs are interchangeable.
-Yes, LRF should be added to all, if not most attack setups.
3. Add D125 to Genbull Dragooon T125GCF. (Credit to Kai-V)
-I agree. D125 is more or less equal to T125.
4. Remove MSF-H Gryph Gryph E230 BSF. I've never seen show up in a tournament or on the Winning Combinations thread.
-From my testing, it just doesn't hold up to combos as well. Not to mention no tournamnet usage.
5. Someone said that Duo 230MB belongs in Balance, not Stamina.
-Yes, Duo 230MB belongs in balance. That was either Ocean or TheBlackDragon
6. Add Revizer/Killerken Dragooon B. It's honestly just as good, if not better, than SA165EWD/W2D.
-Hmm, it's an okay combo, I'd say leave it for now, it's shown decent tournament placings.
7. Either Remove CS from the Genbull Stamina combos, since it is a Defense tip, or move the entire combo to Balance.
-This one's rather difficult for me to resond to. I haven't used Genbull^2 SR200CS, but I think it belongs in Balance, if anything.
8. I know TBD won't agree with this, but I think SD and CF need to go. For whatever height you use, there is always a better D-series tip, and GCF was shown to be better than CF due to more surface area.
You should probably point out that the Hasbro orange F230 should not be used either.
-SD should probably leave, from my testing. I think CF shoud stay honestly. It's able to be controlled better and can preform sliding shoots much easier.
PG: 1(KO)
DG: 9(1KO, 8OS)
Ties: 2
Phantom 230TB Win Rate: 10%
Phantom Gasher 230D Vs. Phantom Gasher 230SD
D: 16(4KO, 12OS)
SD: 4(4 KO)
Ties: 3
Phantom 230D Win Rate: 80%
MSF-H Gryph Gryph E230BSF Vs. Duo Gasher SA165EWD
GG: 0
DG: 10(All OS)
Ties: 0
Gryph Gryph Win Rate: 0%
Proof of Parts:
Spoiler (Click to View)
1. Add H145 to MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang BD145RSF.
-I believe more testing should be done. Other than some tournament usage? I don't recall any tests. I'm sure H145 would allow a sliding shoot to be preformed easier, but I'm not sure if it will hold up to attack testing.
2. Add LRF to Wyvang Wyvang Attack combo, and pretty much all Attack combos where the RFs are interchangeable.
-Yes, LRF should be added to all, if not most attack setups.
3. Add D125 to Genbull Dragooon T125GCF. (Credit to Kai-V)
-I agree. D125 is more or less equal to T125.
4. Remove MSF-H Gryph Gryph E230 BSF. I've never seen show up in a tournament or on the Winning Combinations thread.
-From my testing, it just doesn't hold up to combos as well. Not to mention no tournamnet usage.
5. Someone said that Duo 230MB belongs in Balance, not Stamina.
-Yes, Duo 230MB belongs in balance. That was either Ocean or TheBlackDragon
6. Add Revizer/Killerken Dragooon B
. It's honestly just as good, if not better, than SA165EWD/W2D.-Hmm, it's an okay combo, I'd say leave it for now, it's shown decent tournament placings.
7. Either Remove CS from the Genbull Stamina combos, since it is a Defense tip, or move the entire combo to Balance.
-This one's rather difficult for me to resond to. I haven't used Genbull^2 SR200CS, but I think it belongs in Balance, if anything.
8. I know TBD won't agree with this, but I think SD and CF need to go. For whatever height you use, there is always a better D-series tip, and GCF was shown to be better than CF due to more surface area.
You should probably point out that the Hasbro orange F230 should not be used either.
-SD should probably leave, from my testing. I think CF shoud stay honestly. It's able to be controlled better and can preform sliding shoots much easier.
1. Add H145 to MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang BD145RSF.
-Lots of recoil+lighter=get lost H145.
2. Add LRF to Attack customs.
-Yes, duh.
3. Add D125 to Genbull Dragooon T125GCF.
-I'm the one that first suggested it, so of course.
4. Remove MSF-H Gryph Gryph E230 BSF. I've never seen show up in a tournament or on the Winning Combinations thread.
-REMOVE.
5. Someone said that Duo 230MB belongs in Balance, not Stamina.
-balance.
6. Add Revizer/Killerken Dragooon B. It's honestly just as good, if not better, than SA165EWD/W2D.
-yeah.
7. Either Remove CS from the Genbull Stamina combos, since it is a Defense tip, or move the entire combo to Balance.
-balance. Seems like a stamina type with decent defence, not pure stamina.
8. I know TBD won't agree with this, but I think SD and CF need to go. For whatever height you use, there is always a better D-series tip, and GCF was shown to be better than CF due to more surface area.
You should probably point out that the Hasbro orange F230 should not be used either.
-I say leave CF because it's much easier to control. For SD, it's a decent sub for D on 230, but not as good. So I say whatever.
-Lots of recoil+lighter=get lost H145.
2. Add LRF to Attack customs.
-Yes, duh.
3. Add D125 to Genbull Dragooon T125GCF.
-I'm the one that first suggested it, so of course.
4. Remove MSF-H Gryph Gryph E230 BSF. I've never seen show up in a tournament or on the Winning Combinations thread.
-REMOVE.
5. Someone said that Duo 230MB belongs in Balance, not Stamina.
-balance.
6. Add Revizer/Killerken Dragooon B. It's honestly just as good, if not better, than SA165EWD/W2D.
-yeah.
7. Either Remove CS from the Genbull Stamina combos, since it is a Defense tip, or move the entire combo to Balance.
-balance. Seems like a stamina type with decent defence, not pure stamina.
8. I know TBD won't agree with this, but I think SD and CF need to go. For whatever height you use, there is always a better D-series tip, and GCF was shown to be better than CF due to more surface area.
You should probably point out that the Hasbro orange F230 should not be used either.
-I say leave CF because it's much easier to control. For SD, it's a decent sub for D on 230, but not as good. So I say whatever.
![[Image: f759d58.gif]](https://i.imgsafe.org/f759d58.gif)
![[Image: rcFJUxo.png]](https://i.imgur.com/rcFJUxo.png)
(prepare to read a decent amount of text)
I have just recently noticed that GF based combos are not on the list. GF combos are top tier worthy, considering their AMAZING precision. Seeing all the tests right now, GF has proven to be a pretty good spin stealer/spin equalizer tip. Also, why not add RDF to Wyvang Wyvang BD145RSF. It has A LOT more LAD than RSF, and has the same level of defense and aggression. Last thing, I know you will probably disagree on this, but how about adding Duo Cancer/Hades/Cygnus B : D to the list? From the tournaments that I went to recently, Duo B : D has been proven to be top tier worthy. I know it lacks defense, but it's crazy good stamina and LAD pays off for it.
I have just recently noticed that GF based combos are not on the list. GF combos are top tier worthy, considering their AMAZING precision. Seeing all the tests right now, GF has proven to be a pretty good spin stealer/spin equalizer tip. Also, why not add RDF to Wyvang Wyvang BD145RSF. It has A LOT more LAD than RSF, and has the same level of defense and aggression. Last thing, I know you will probably disagree on this, but how about adding Duo Cancer/Hades/Cygnus B : D to the list? From the tournaments that I went to recently, Duo B : D has been proven to be top tier worthy. I know it lacks defense, but it's crazy good stamina and LAD pays off for it.
![[Image: Pegasusbanner.png]](https://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090425231631/cybernations/images/2/27/Pegasusbanner.png)
RSF is more aggressive than RDF, unless your RDF is insanely worn. Duo B has had discussion and personally, I'm not sure whether I'd like it on the list. SA165EWD is just so much more popular and safer.
has had discussion and personally, I'm not sure whether I'd like it on the list. SA165EWD is just so much more popular and safer.
TBH, GF needs to be tested by more than two people. I might be able to do some testing tomorrow though. But seeing as how relatively new GD LW105GF is and how GD BD145/SA165GF does against Stamina, I'm hesistant for someone to include it. It's not going to be useful for Anti-Attack, BD145 variants doesn't do well against Stamina combos, and only works decently agaisnt defense, but you need a lot of practice just to keep it stalling, much less a sliding shoot.
I do believe RSF is used for more movement and stamina.
Actually, you're right for suggesting Duo B:D it's a great custom and has shown tons of tournament usage.
I do believe RSF is used for more movement and stamina.
Actually, you're right for suggesting Duo B:D it's a great custom and has shown tons of tournament usage.
Duo B is actually already on the list guys
is actually already on the list guys
Whaddup guys. I responded in the Adv. forum here, so you can read that.
Also, RDF has too little Stamina and aggression for my taste to be used on Wyvang BD145. It's not awful, but IMO RSF is much more effective in most situations (unless you're in a super Dragooon-heavy meta, but in that case you shouldn't be using Stationary Wyvang customs anyway).
I heartily agree with what Tr! said about CF vs. GCF on F230.
Also, RDF has too little Stamina and aggression for my taste to be used on Wyvang BD145. It's not awful, but IMO RSF is much more effective in most situations (unless you're in a super Dragooon-heavy meta, but in that case you shouldn't be using Stationary Wyvang customs anyway).
I heartily agree with what Tr! said about CF vs. GCF on F230.
![[Image: 68vfxj.jpg]](https://oi57.tinypic.com/68vfxj.jpg)
Here are some more D vs. SD tests to go with Echizen's. I alternated which combo was launched first each round.
MF-L Duo Cancer 230D vs. MF-L Phantom Cancer W145WD
MF-L Duo Cancer 230SD vs. MF-L Phantom Cancer W145WD
I got better results with D, but I'm not sure if 3 matches is enough to be a significant difference. The SD battles were a lot closer that the D ones were though.
MF-L Earth Cancer 230D vs. MF-L Earth Cancer 230SD
So D beats SD in a mirror match, just like Echizen found. I only have 1 Duo and 1 Phantom so I used Earths instead.
MF-L Duo Cancer 230D vs. MF-L Phantom Cancer W145WD
Spoiler (Click to View)
MF-L Duo Cancer 230SD vs. MF-L Phantom Cancer W145WD
Spoiler (Click to View)
I got better results with D, but I'm not sure if 3 matches is enough to be a significant difference. The SD battles were a lot closer that the D ones were though.
MF-L Earth Cancer 230D vs. MF-L Earth Cancer 230SD
Spoiler (Click to View)
Thanks for the tests Wombat! Although D beats SD how much do you think using SD instead of D in a situation will make a difference? I think it should stay because it also does the job good. Do you mind doing some attack tests to see which holds up better D or SD? Thanks.
Well either way 230D/SD is better at Stamina then W145, but W145 is better at something's. Try doing it against Meteo L-Drago F230, just to see if it can win against the rubber,
(Jun. 27, 2014 8:08 PM)RagerBlade Wrote: Well either way 230D/SD is better at Stamina then W145, but W145 is better at something's. Try doing it against Meteo L-Drago F230, just to see if it can win against the rubber,
wut no
230 isn't better at Stamina, it's just that 145 loses due to the bad height matchup.
Also, testing against Meteo F230 would invalidate the tests since the test is checking SD vs D for 230 Stamina - Meteo F230 wouldn't be used with either of those tips. The test is set up so W145 loses - the extent that 230 beats it is a measure of how effective D/SD is.
Wombat: Did you switch identical parts halfway through? Also, what kind of condition were the Bottoms in? Mint would be best.