World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc. Beyblade Discussion Beyblade Customizations Metal Fight Limited Customizations

MFB: Limited :: Primer, Random Thoughts, and Q&A Thread!

May. 23, 2014  6:10 AM
 
(May. 23, 2014  5:45 AM)DRAGON KING Wrote:
(May. 23, 2014  5:42 AM)Stars Wrote:
(May. 23, 2014  4:43 AM)TheWhiteTiger Wrote: I think you should re-word taht becuase your kinda controdicting yourself their. But no, ED145 doesn't have any gimmick that allows it to not scrape the ground...

R145 works significantly better for the action your describing than C145.
No your wrong ED145 has a free spinning gimmick and is also a top tier track part for defense purpose.

R145 it not a defense track or work significantly better than C145 due it recoil it specifically for Attack type with 3 sided MW ( Bliltz, Pegasus, Pheonic) due to the weight contribution to each side.

Since when is ED145 top tier?

Being One of the heaviest tracks in limited, it is used for defence.
You weren't around in 2010 or earlier C145/ED145 was a top tier defense parts, it only outclassed by BD145/E230/230/SP200.

Since it limited C145/ED145 once again become top tier originally.

R145, correct it heavy but it has recoil it it purposely for attack type only.
May. 23, 2014  6:24 AM
 
(May. 23, 2014  6:10 AM)Stars Wrote:
(May. 23, 2014  5:45 AM)DRAGON KING Wrote:
(May. 23, 2014  5:42 AM)Stars Wrote: No your wrong ED145 has a free spinning gimmick and is also a top tier track part for defense purpose.

R145 it not a defense track or work significantly better than C145 due it recoil it specifically for Attack type with 3 sided MW ( Bliltz, Pegasus, Pheonic) due to the weight contribution to each side.

Since when is ED145 top tier?

Being One of the heaviest tracks in limited, it is used for defence.
You weren't around in 2010 or earlier C145/ED145 was a top tier defense parts, it only outclassed by BD145/E230/230/SP200.

Since it limited C145/ED145 once again become top tier originally.

R145, correct it heavy but it has recoil it it purposely for attack type only.

The correct term would be "used to be a top tier defence part".

So does GB145 have a good amount of recoil. I remember Th!nk saying tests showed that GB145 didnt work better than R145 against LTAC.


@at that edit in your post: neither have became top tier. No too tier list, remember? I doubt C145 will make the list at all. Maybe not ED145 either. The only place it would even have a chance on the list would be spin steal.
May. 23, 2014  6:55 AM
 
Stars, that was quite a while ago. I still remember when we considered R145 attack only. But the meta has shifted. Weight is so important now, haha.
May. 23, 2014  4:47 PM
 
(May. 23, 2014  5:42 AM)Stars Wrote:
(May. 23, 2014  4:43 AM)TheWhiteTiger Wrote:
(May. 23, 2014  4:33 AM)RDF3 Wrote: Cake's right though- ED145 has more LAD than WD145 because WD145's three roller-less free-wings with gaps in between cause the wings to hit the floor, reducing the custom's LAD significantly. ED145's wings, even though not really free-spinning, stops the wings from "hitting" the floor like WD145.

I think you should re-word taht becuase your kinda controdicting yourself their. But no, ED145 doesn't have any gimmick that allows it to not scrape the ground...

(May. 23, 2014  4:33 AM)RDF3 Wrote: @Stars: Earth C145CS wins because C145 pretty much offers significant defense against lower combos like screw, and Libra 85RSF losing to Screw has never happened to me- Libra's underside is well-protected on LTDC, and it's sides and top doesn't offer much recoil if at all. It's weight also reduces recoil considerably.
R145 works significantly better for the action your describing than C145.
No your wrong ED145 has a free spinning gimmick and is also a top tier track part for defense purpose.

R145 it not a defense track or work significantly better than C145 due it recoil it specifically for Attack type with 3 sided MW ( Bliltz, Pegasus, Pheonic) due to the weight contribution to each side.
ED145 isnt a top tier track... for anything.

It's the heaviest legal spin track! It has no recoil, it's completely made out of rubber.... R145 and TR145 do the same thing, but significantly better.
May. 23, 2014  9:27 PM
 
Saying R145 has no recoil is false. R145 is probably one of the most recoily tracks in the entire game. Those huge open gaps causes recoil. I mean just by looking at it you should realize that.

And you can't say R145 and TR145 are so much better when you have nothing to back it up. Maybe all of you should stop bashing on stars when he was actually around when ED145 was actually a popular and used part.

But you can't really say its top tier either.
May. 23, 2014  9:34 PM
 
(May. 23, 2014  9:27 PM)Tr! Wrote: Saying R145 has no rubber is false. R145 is probably one of the most recoily tracks in the entire game. Those huge open gaps causes recoil. I mean just by looking at it you should realize that.
If it was so recoily it would have never been used for Defense.

(May. 23, 2014  9:27 PM)Tr! Wrote: And you can't say R145 and TR145 are so much better when you have nothing to back it up. Maybe all of you should stop bashing on stars when he was actually around when ED145 was actually a popular and used part.
There's countless tests on R145 and TR145 throughout this whole thread. No one's bashing on anyone, he just said ED145 was much better, but it isn't.
May. 23, 2014  9:40 PM
 
Honestly, whitetiger and dragon king, no offense, but you guys aren't really qualified to even be constructing a tier list, if I wasn't in the middle of end of year stuff right now, I would do it myself, but since I am I can only advise
May. 23, 2014  9:42 PM
 
(May. 23, 2014  9:27 PM)Tr! Wrote: Saying R145 has no rubber is false. R145 is probably one of the most recoily tracks in the entire game. Those huge open gaps causes recoil. I mean just by looking at it you should realize that.

And you can't say R145 and TR145 are so much better when you have nothing to back it up. Maybe all of you should stop bashing on stars when he was actually around when ED145 was actually a popular and used part.

But you can't really say its top tier either.

He never said that...

Your right that R145 is very recoily and just becuz it's rubber doesn't make it recoilless. but it's weight makes it so good. GB145 is also recoily, but it's still good for defence.

It doesn't matter who was here longer. What matter is knowledge. I thought you'd know something like that, being a mod and all.


(May. 23, 2014  9:40 PM)Time Wrote: Honestly, whitetiger and dragon king, no offense, but you guys aren't really qualified to even be constructing a tier list, if I wasn't in the middle of end of year stuff right now, I would do it myself, but since I am I can only advise

What are you basing your statement off? Not many other people are doing and I feel that were perfectly qualified to help. IMO that didn't really contribute anything to the conversation and wasn't needed.
May. 23, 2014  9:45 PM
 
(May. 23, 2014  9:40 PM)Time Wrote: Honestly, whitetiger and dragon king, no offense, but you guys aren't really qualified to even be constructing a tier list, if I wasn't in the middle of end of year stuff right now, I would do it myself, but since I am I can only advise

Why? I've played Beyblade since 2010, I'm on the site 24/7. Just becuause I wasn't on the site 2-4 years ago, and never experienced a C145 actually being useful doesn't make me or DK anyless knowledgeable...
May. 23, 2014  10:09 PM
 
I never said it wasn't good for defense. But Dragon King:

TheWhiteTiger Wrote:It's the heaviest legal spin track! It has no recoil, it's completely made out of rubber.... R145 and TR145 do the same thing, but significantly better.

Read the bold, he did say that. I meant to say recoil, it auto corrected in my post.

Being on the site has nothing to do with it. It is all based on experience and testing.

I can't really say that you two cant construct the tier list but since I haven't been working in it due to school, someone needs to for now.
May. 23, 2014  10:16 PM
 
(May. 23, 2014  10:09 PM)Tr! Wrote: I never said it wasn't good for defense. But Dragon King:

TheWhiteTiger Wrote:It's the heaviest legal spin track! It has no recoil, it's completely made out of rubber.... R145 and TR145 do the same thing, but significantly better.

Read the bold, he did say that. I meant to say recoil, it auto corrected in my post.

Being on the site has nothing to do with it. It is all based on experience and testing.

I can't really say that you two cant construct the tier list but since I haven't been working in it due to school, someone needs to for now.
I was kind of wrong to say that. R145 has recoil, but not as much as you think. I do have experince and testing, and being on the site does have something to do woth it. You can just witness other people do there testing and opinions.
May. 23, 2014  10:26 PM
 
Just trust me dude, R145 making contact will nearly stop rotation immediately not just because of recoil, but because of the rubber as well. The recoil and grip of the track make it to where if contact is made, it'll KO itself. The grip of the tracks makes it stop immediately when the rubber makes contact with the stadium floor. Overall, R145 is a great track for attack because if its weight. Defensively it can be used, but when there are tracks like GB145, TR145, and even ED145 that don't have as much problems as R145 for defensive purposes, I think R145 should be kept away from defensively. For attack, its awesome.
May. 23, 2014  10:31 PM
 
http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-LTD-R145...light=R145 Smile


MF Earth Bull C145RS vs. MSF-H Dark Knight Wyvang(Crystal Up) 90R2F

EB: 3(All OS)
DKW: 7(All KO)
Ties: 0

Earth Bull C145 Win Rate: 30%

MF Earth Bull GB145RS vs. MSF-H Dark Knight Wyvang(Crystal Up) 90R2F

EB: 6(All OS)
DKW: 4(All KO)
Ties: 0

Earth Bull GB145 Win Rate: 60%
May. 24, 2014  1:43 AM
 
(May. 23, 2014  9:34 PM)TheWhiteTiger Wrote:
(May. 23, 2014  9:27 PM)Tr! Wrote: And you can't say R145 and TR145 are so much better when you have nothing to back it up. Maybe all of you should stop bashing on stars when he was actually around when ED145 was actually a popular and used part.
There's countless tests on R145 and TR145 throughout this whole thread. No one's bashing on anyone, he just said ED145 was much better, but it isn't.


Remember, the argument here was originally for a Meteo spin stealer setup. Meteo's ridiculously light, and although the added weight from R145 would be nice, Meteo wins by spin stealing. That means that you need as much LAD as you can possibly get, something which R145 is terrible at. It suffers from heavy rotational recoil, since the grippy rubber slows down Meteo quickly when it scrapes, and it's still a giant freakin' wing-hammer-gap-thing sticking out to slow it down. Meteo is just going to stop when it hit s the ground, and that is not a good thing on a combo that wins by out-spinning the opponent, particularly when matches are as close as they are with spin-stealers. The main concern is LAD - a Defense boost is great, but we're talking Stamina here, and LAD is waaaay more important in that case.


So the argument is between TR145 and ED145. I am certain (yes, certain) that ED145 is the better choice. Let's compare ED145 with TR145, just physically.

-My ED145 and TR145 weigh almost the same. ED145 is about a tenth of a gram lighter at 3.4g to TR145's 3.5.

-ED145 is slightly wider than TR145. This is good because it means that even when Meteo is resting on ED145, it will be slightly more upright than on TR145, making it easier to continue to spin-steal at the last moments of the game. This is how the combo Girago Dragooon SA165EWD works, except with the even wider SA165. SA165 is banned in Limited, of course, so it's not an option.

-ED145 does not hop around. By this I mean that TR145, when it is supporting Meteo, is going to bounce around a bit due to its irregular surface smashing against the floor of the Stadium. Since ED145 is free spinning, it stays stationary relative to the Stadium and does not cause additional rotational recoil or bouncing. Each bounce is depleting the energy of the Beyblade, since the rotational momentum is being converted into the force which is bouncing the Beyblade. ED145 does not lose energy through this bouncing, though it does still have friction where it rotates (though, if you have a good mold, this is minimal.)

-ED145 blocks attacks. When ED145 is hit by an opposing bey, rather than having any irregularities on its surface hitting those on the opponent and causing the forces of a strong Smash Attack, it simply absorbs the energy as rotational energy, spinning with the force of the hit instead of just taking it. This dampens the force of the hit significantly. Since TR145 does not spin, the effect of the attack is much stronger. The rollers do have a similar dampening effect, but it is much smaller and is inconsistent since the opponent nay not actually hit the rollers.


I'll summarize here:
ED145 is equal to or better than TR145 in every way.
May. 24, 2014  2:20 AM
 
Spin stealing... I rember thay I made an illegil combo (never used it in tournaments just for fun) putting l drago 2 then desctructor and then LW105 BWD and Iit went for a few minutes spinning.
May. 24, 2014  2:34 AM
 
(May. 24, 2014  1:43 AM)Cake Wrote:
(May. 23, 2014  9:34 PM)TheWhiteTiger Wrote:
(May. 23, 2014  9:27 PM)Tr! Wrote: And you can't say R145 and TR145 are so much better when you have nothing to back it up. Maybe all of you should stop bashing on stars when he was actually around when ED145 was actually a popular and used part.
There's countless tests on R145 and TR145 throughout this whole thread. No one's bashing on anyone, he just said ED145 was much better, but it isn't.


Remember, the argument here was originally for a Meteo spin stealer setup. Meteo's ridiculously light, and although the added weight from R145 would be nice, Meteo wins by spin stealing. That means that you need as much LAD as you can possibly get, something which R145 is terrible at. It suffers from heavy rotational recoil, since the grippy rubber slows down Meteo quickly when it scrapes, and it's still a giant freakin' wing-hammer-gap-thing sticking out to slow it down. Meteo is just going to stop when it hit s the ground, and that is not a good thing on a combo that wins by out-spinning the opponent, particularly when matches are as close as they are with spin-stealers. The main concern is LAD - a Defense boost is great, but we're talking Stamina here, and LAD is waaaay more important in that case.

I think I can agree that R145 will not be as useful with Meteo, haha. Thank you for your insight. Oh and Tr! too.

(May. 24, 2014  1:43 AM)Cake Wrote: -My ED145 and TR145 weigh almost the same. ED145 is about a tenth of a gram lighter at 3.4g to TR145's 3.5.
The weight doesn't make much of a difference tbh.

(May. 24, 2014  1:43 AM)Cake Wrote: -ED145 is slightly wider than TR145. This is good because it means that even when Meteo is resting on ED145, it will be slightly more upright than on TR145, making it easier to continue to spin-steal at the last moments of the game. This is how the combo Girago Dragooon SA165EWD works, except with the even wider SA165. SA165 is banned in Limited, of course, so it's not an option.
I'll edit this post once I compare the two at my house, becuase I'm not there atm.

(May. 24, 2014  1:43 AM)Cake Wrote: -ED145 does not hop around. By this I mean that TR145, when it is supporting Meteo, is going to bounce around a bit due to its irregular surface smashing against the floor of the Stadium. Since ED145 is free spinning, it stays stationary relative to the Stadium and does not cause additional rotational recoil or bouncing. Each bounce is depleting the energy of the Beyblade, since the rotational momentum is being converted into the force which is bouncing the Beyblade. ED145 does not lose energy through this bouncing, though it does still have friction where it rotates (though, if you have a good mold, this is minimal.)

I'm not really sure what you mean by that, but usually when I've used ED145 in the past when it goes to roll on the ground it does the "hopping" thing. I think TR145 and ED145 both does, but TR145's shape is more supported than ED145.

(May. 24, 2014  1:43 AM)Cake Wrote: -ED145 blocks attacks. When ED145 is hit by an opposing bey, rather than having any irregularities on its surface hitting those on the opponent and causing the forces of a strong Smash Attack, it simply absorbs the energy as rotational energy, spinning with the force of the hit instead of just taking it. This dampens the force of the hit significantly. Since TR145 does not spin, the effect of the attack is much stronger. The rollers do have a similar dampening effect, but it is much smaller and is inconsistent since the opponent nay not actually hit the rollers.

ED145 isn't as skilled at deflecting attacks tbh. Because there are large gaps in between each ring that when hit there it will cause tremendous recoil even wihen hit by a defense type, and with a light wheel like Meteo it can cause devestatiting effects. With TR145 the gaps are slightly smaller and the wings are thicker. The rollers also help to lessen recoil when hit directly on the wing.

Anyways, I'd at least like to thank you for making a stride to improve the Tier List and making such a large one to do so. Even if it was just a minor track change. Smile
May. 24, 2014  2:43 AM
 
Thats true because tri145 was designed to deflect attacks and lessen the recoil Because I dont think people want recoil when they are trying to win a bey battle just saying and dont get me started with the r145... to much recoil and when it touches the stadium it just stops instantly like no final spin chances, (to win) just to stop and that it.
But really r145 is just plain bad... unless you have a plan or something ... dont know. Btw do u recomend that ed 145 or tri145 in zero g stadium (any).
May. 24, 2014  5:56 AM
 
Exactly. Guys, we each need to contribute as much as we can, and you know how long it takes us to approve a final top-tier list in the Advanced Forum, so if we can avoid adding time into the process before that stage, I think it would benefit everyone. If that means someone starting something and another person finishing or correcting it, then let it be.
May. 25, 2014  7:46 AM
 
Considering the fact that Omega is one of the most feared attack wheels right now, I think we should try testing more clear wheels for Omega. Meow! mentioned that Dragonis exposes the contact points which Omega uses for maximum attack and TBD mentioned Pegasis III and Horuseus to have done an excellent job with Omega. So my main clear wheels to test are:

Horogium
Kerbecs
Orion
Dragonis
Pegasis III
Horuseus
May. 25, 2014  5:33 PM
 
I've tried all of those except for Orion. They all perform well. Check the Omega discussion thread, I and many others did plenty of testing from what I remember. I haven't viewed it in a while haha.
May. 25, 2014  5:38 PM
 
haha, lol. I just wanted to know if Orion would do good because it is similar in size to Horuseus and Orion looks like it exposes the contact points. Anyways, out of the CWs I listed, which performed the best for you Tr!?
May. 25, 2014  6:59 PM
 
(May. 24, 2014  2:34 AM)TheWhiteTiger Wrote:
(May. 24, 2014  1:43 AM)Cake Wrote: -My ED145 and TR145 weigh almost the same. ED145 is about a tenth of a gram lighter at 3.4g to TR145's 3.5.
The weight doesn't make much of a difference tbh.
That's my point lol

(May. 24, 2014  2:34 AM)TheWhiteTiger Wrote:
(May. 24, 2014  1:43 AM)Cake Wrote: -ED145 does not hop around. By this I mean that TR145, when it is supporting Meteo, is going to bounce around a bit due to its irregular surface smashing against the floor of the Stadium. Since ED145 is free spinning, it stays stationary relative to the Stadium and does not cause additional rotational recoil or bouncing. Each bounce is depleting the energy of the Beyblade, since the rotational momentum is being converted into the force which is bouncing the Beyblade. ED145 does not lose energy through this bouncing, though it does still have friction where it rotates (though, if you have a good mold, this is minimal.)

I'm not really sure what you mean by that, but usually when I've used ED145 in the past when it goes to roll on the ground it does the "hopping" thing. I think TR145 and ED145 both does, but TR145's shape is more supported than ED145.
So after doing a bunch of testing, TR145 isn't as bad as I remember, though it does tend to vibrate/stutter somewhat when hitting the rollers on its edge as it rolls on the ground, which is not good for its LAD. ED145 typically just slides on the ground a bit without spinning and lets the rest of the Beyblade continue to spin freely, which is excellent for LAD.

(May. 24, 2014  2:34 AM)TheWhiteTiger Wrote:
(May. 24, 2014  1:43 AM)Cake Wrote: -ED145 blocks attacks. When ED145 is hit by an opposing bey, rather than having any irregularities on its surface hitting those on the opponent and causing the forces of a strong Smash Attack, it simply absorbs the energy as rotational energy, spinning with the force of the hit instead of just taking it. This dampens the force of the hit significantly. Since TR145 does not spin, the effect of the attack is much stronger. The rollers do have a similar dampening effect, but it is much smaller and is inconsistent since the opponent nay not actually hit the rollers.

ED145 isn't as skilled at deflecting attacks tbh. Because there are large gaps in between each ring that when hit there it will cause tremendous recoil even wihen hit by a defense type, and with a light wheel like Meteo it can cause devestatiting effects. With TR145 the gaps are slightly smaller and the wings are thicker. The rollers also help to lessen recoil when hit directly on the wing.
I would agree 100% with a lot of what you've been saying if you were referring to WD145, which is basically the same as ED145 except minus the free-spinning gimmick. WD145's wings are ridiculously recoily and generally awful for anything, since they also hurt its LAD badly due to the wings bouncing along the ground.

However, ED145's a different story; since it's free-spinning, instead of the wings smashing against stuff and transferring that force to the rest of the Beyblade, it just spins relative to the Beyblade and transmits little to no force - in fact, less than TR145 does. I tested TR145 vs ED145 for Defense, throwing MF-H Vulcan Horuseus 85F (yeah it's kinda stupid, but it's low and good at hitting the Track, which is what I was testing) against Earth Aquario _____ RSF. ED145 basically shrugged off anything that hit it, though it began to spin quickly and made an audible hissing noise as it was hit due to that spinning. Metal-on-metal contact was pretty effective, but that's not the focus of the testing. TR145 had some minor recoil, and caused both Beyblades to suffer from rotational recoil when they collided, so matches were much faster due to a quicker OS or KO. Defensively, ED145 was better, though not by a huge margin.

For the Stamina tests, I took two Gravity setups, MF Gravity Perseus (Attack) TR145WD and MF Gravity Perseus (Attack) ED145WD. I would have used Stamina or Defense mold Perseus, but I only have 2 of the Attack mold. I hand-spun them both at once in opposite directions, alternating hands each round to keep things at least somewhat balanced. ED145 won slightly more frequently than TR145, about 60% / 40% for ED145 / TR145. ED145's higher % could be just chance, but I'm inclined to say that it was, in fact, better. ED145 won by significantly larger margins than TR145 did, and TR145 was mostly winning when it was able to get a better launch/spin than ED145 was.


Anyways, I'm not necessarily trying to prove that ED145 is better than TR145, though I believe it is; my main point is that it is at least equal to TR145 and thus ED145 should at least be included with TR145 on the top-tier list.
May. 25, 2014  11:50 PM
 
On the subject of Omega, I thought a consensus had been reached that horuseus was the best?
May. 25, 2014  11:51 PM
 
Okay, I borrowed my friends ED145 and I did some tests.

Solo Spin:

ED145: 1:49.4
TR145: 2:11.5


Meteo L-Drago ED145WD Vs. MF Libra 90RSF

MLD: 7(All OS)
Libra: 3(All KO)
Ties: 3

Meteo L-Drago TR145WD Vs. MF Libra 90RSF

MLD: 10(All OS)
Libra: 0
Ties: 11


Meteo L-Drago ED145WD Vs. Earth Hades W145WD

MLD: 7(All OS)
Libra: 3(All OS)
Ties: 9

Meteo L-Drago TR145WD Vs. Earth Hades W145WD

MLD: 5(All OS)
Libra: 0
Ties: 7
May. 26, 2014  6:05 AM
 
Yeah. Looks like TR145 is performing better. I've heard people say that TR145 isn't working that good for them so they use ED145, because the free- spinning rollers in TR145 has not been smooth enough. SO I guess it also depends on that. Mine has been exceptionally good. I got it from Divine Crown TR145D.
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