Fake tests (Click to View)
MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion (v1.5 - 9/20/16)
WBO Committee: It was recently brought to our attention that all tests by Crescent in this topic are fabricated. We urge you to forget their results and that someone trustworthy conduct the actual tests for the sake of this metagame.
I hope the previous time was just an outlier then because honestly I'm tired of arguing about stuff that is broken but very few people have, brings up too many frustrating arguments. TBH I'm sure there's an AA2 Scythe setup that can do that, maybe not quite as solid defensively but IIRC I had one that only needed to KO a couple of things (which could be done) to do that (probably some CS setup like MF-L Scythe Cancer TH170CS, as MF-L Scythe UnicornoII GB145CS is very close to outspinning Earth Cygnus W145EWD, (also yeah, UnicornoII netted a marginally better solo spin time than Gasher, my previous best, though obviously aggression is a concern)) - it's a shame I forgot, but I'm aiming higher than that (and pretty sure I can get it there, just waiting on a part or two to arrive).
EDIT: That's a relief, thanks The Alchemist.
EDIT: That's a relief, thanks The Alchemist.
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OMG when I first saw The Alchemists tests I was "NO! Don't Unban Variares, I'm begging you!" Then I saw it was the metal fury one XD. I'm cool with unbanned Jade.
EDIT: guys, that's not really a relief since that could have been a red F230...
EDIT: guys, that's not really a relief since that could have been a red F230...
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![[Image: rcFJUxo.png]](https://i.imgur.com/rcFJUxo.png)
(Feb. 14, 2014 6:24 PM)DRAGON KING Wrote:Yeah, you're right; that could of not been a relief. However though, I was using an orange F230. Honestly, Variares really didn't seem good. I found it lost balance and there was sometimes it came close to getting KO'D. Earth won by some rotations.
EDIT: guys, that's not really a relief since that could have been a red F230...
(Feb. 14, 2014 6:42 PM)The Alchemist Wrote:(Feb. 14, 2014 6:24 PM)DRAGON KING Wrote:Yeah, you're right; that could of not been a relief. However though, I was using an orange F230. Honestly, Variares really didn't seem good. I found it lost balance and there was sometimes it came close to getting KO'D. Earth won by some rotations.
EDIT: guys, that's not really a relief since that could have been a red F230...
Good, but yeah, coming from a guy that has experience with it. It won't be nearly as good as gravity.
(Feb. 14, 2014 6:24 PM)DRAGON KING Wrote: EDIT: guys, that's not really a relief since that could have been a red F230...
I know he has a TT Orange one and I had little reason to doubt he used it. That said, especially with Hasbro now having their Orange F230 out and it so far being inferior to Takara's, we do need to specify that and similar things every time we post results, yes.
Oh goodness, that's a relief. Thanks Alchemist.
Something must've been majorly skewing my results last week. Can't think what it could have been, but I'm glad to see it's not gonna be a problem.
That's just really weird, LOL.
Something must've been majorly skewing my results last week. Can't think what it could have been, but I'm glad to see it's not gonna be a problem.
That's just really weird, LOL.
![[Image: 68vfxj.jpg]](https://oi57.tinypic.com/68vfxj.jpg)
Okay I know I said I'd be quiet about it but I really have to vent about this because it's driving me nuts - just to make it clear, I do agree that we should see Scythe strut its stuff in at least one tournament before we ban it (if I can get this Perth one together I think I'll be able to show that even with our nascent competitive scene, though failing that I'm pretty sure it'll show up in a more established area soon enough), to be honest I was much more annoyed at the lack of discussion/explanation surrounding it than the decision itself (as much as I don't think it's totally necessary to see a part perform in a tournament situation before banning it given certain conditions are fulfilled, I can understand others disagreeing with that), but in the mean time the thing is still really, really annoying me and I think it's good in helping explain/show just why I am so strongly opposed to its presence. So, WHINE POST GO:
I keep coming up with neat combos in deciding what I'm going to use for this tournament and trying out ideas and stuff, I've got a couple of nice tornado stallers/TSing attackers that are super neat because they use parts that haven't been discussed or are considered useless which work really well (amongst some other useful/neat things), but then...
MF Scythe (Metal Fury AA2) Cancer GB145CS
The rest of the defense wheels can't take a hit on CS or can be outspun on it, but Scythe has just enough Defense and Stamina to ruin them (MF-L Scythe Cancer B: D is also much harder to KO than you'd expect, but it's still manageable), especially as its flywheel of a lower rim combined with solid weight means the KO's go 50/50 at best, and its stamina is enough to outspin them.
It's not all that hard to KO with a regular attack type, but it's still quite versatile, given Scythe's "Best-Or-Near-Best-At-Everything-Lol" characteristics.
That said, so far I'm yet to find a scythe combination that is completely ruinous without a good sliding shot (though I got pretty close with some TH170 thing IIRC, forgot what it was though as it still required remembering what height to use which wasn't what I was after), though MF-L Scythe Cancer B: D (my B
is pretty great tho, should do new solo spins tbh) is pretty obnoxious in terms of stamina and not having absolutely no defense (and therefore actually being able to KO some lighter stamina/spin steal stuff sometimes which is really weird to watch).
I'm writing up a blogpost about the various combos I've come across while preparing for this tournament that should be done soon so what they are will be in there, but yeah, I'll be happy when Scythe finally eats a ban instead of every neat combo I come across.
Oh also after playing around with F230 in Limited, at least without gravity around it's not really an issue tbh, too easy to KO, too vulnerable to anything on low tracks with passable stamina, after trying Meteo L-Drago (Absorb), L-Drago, Lightning L-Drago, Dark Knight Genbull/Killerken/Orojya (the three things decent enough stamina wise) and watching Samurai Dragooon flail around uselessly and fall over (lol), unless people are incorrect about the Metal Fury L-Dragos and Variares, I'm honestly shocked it has been as popular/effective as it has.
I haven't used Gravity F230 (G)CF that much but what I have done does make me think it isn't as strong as the results made it appear; obviously take this with a pinch of salt, I've not really done much with it because I've got too much else to try and do right now, but I definitely think it should be given a second chance once the banlist is stable/sorted out.
I keep coming up with neat combos in deciding what I'm going to use for this tournament and trying out ideas and stuff, I've got a couple of nice tornado stallers/TSing attackers that are super neat because they use parts that haven't been discussed or are considered useless which work really well (amongst some other useful/neat things), but then...
MF Scythe (Metal Fury AA2) Cancer GB145CS
The rest of the defense wheels can't take a hit on CS or can be outspun on it, but Scythe has just enough Defense and Stamina to ruin them (MF-L Scythe Cancer B: D is also much harder to KO than you'd expect, but it's still manageable), especially as its flywheel of a lower rim combined with solid weight means the KO's go 50/50 at best, and its stamina is enough to outspin them.
It's not all that hard to KO with a regular attack type, but it's still quite versatile, given Scythe's "Best-Or-Near-Best-At-Everything-Lol" characteristics.
That said, so far I'm yet to find a scythe combination that is completely ruinous without a good sliding shot (though I got pretty close with some TH170 thing IIRC, forgot what it was though as it still required remembering what height to use which wasn't what I was after), though MF-L Scythe Cancer B: D (my B
is pretty great tho, should do new solo spins tbh) is pretty obnoxious in terms of stamina and not having absolutely no defense (and therefore actually being able to KO some lighter stamina/spin steal stuff sometimes which is really weird to watch). I'm writing up a blogpost about the various combos I've come across while preparing for this tournament that should be done soon so what they are will be in there, but yeah, I'll be happy when Scythe finally eats a ban instead of every neat combo I come across.
Oh also after playing around with F230 in Limited, at least without gravity around it's not really an issue tbh, too easy to KO, too vulnerable to anything on low tracks with passable stamina, after trying Meteo L-Drago (Absorb), L-Drago, Lightning L-Drago, Dark Knight Genbull/Killerken/Orojya (the three things decent enough stamina wise) and watching Samurai Dragooon flail around uselessly and fall over (lol), unless people are incorrect about the Metal Fury L-Dragos and Variares, I'm honestly shocked it has been as popular/effective as it has.
I haven't used Gravity F230 (G)CF that much but what I have done does make me think it isn't as strong as the results made it appear; obviously take this with a pinch of salt, I've not really done much with it because I've got too much else to try and do right now, but I definitely think it should be given a second chance once the banlist is stable/sorted out.
The biggest reason F230 was used so frequenly, was because 1) Gravity was legal, which gave completely insane versatility on the setup, and 2) seeing how overwhelmingly successful Dragooon F230 is/was in STD/ZRG, people used it in hopes that its dominant characteristics would carry over into LTD (which was more or less the case with Gravity F230).
I don't see F230 being a problem for this format anytime soon, unless there's some crazy Wheel combination that we've completely overlooked, but yah; for now, it's definitely been neutralized.
As for Scythe, I can't really speak much on the subject, since, as you know, my Scythe is apparently incapable of what yours and other AA2s can do but if you truly are getting consistent results like that, it should most likely go as soon as possible. Whoever owns one of these Scythes needs to test it out, with an incredibly clean/careful procedure so we can get an idea of whether or not the qualities are consistent within molds (The Alchemist did some IIRC, but one or two more people's tests would definitely help). If it's that good, the sooner we're rid of it, the better.
I don't see F230 being a problem for this format anytime soon, unless there's some crazy Wheel combination that we've completely overlooked, but yah; for now, it's definitely been neutralized.
As for Scythe, I can't really speak much on the subject, since, as you know, my Scythe is apparently incapable of what yours and other AA2s can do but if you truly are getting consistent results like that, it should most likely go as soon as possible. Whoever owns one of these Scythes needs to test it out, with an incredibly clean/careful procedure so we can get an idea of whether or not the qualities are consistent within molds (The Alchemist did some IIRC, but one or two more people's tests would definitely help). If it's that good, the sooner we're rid of it, the better.
IIRC Angryface has AA1-3 and was interested in helping out, and I think he was going to repeat that main test that showed the difference. There was quite a bit of testing overall showing it was the best at stamina and defense (though perhaps there are one or two things that might be better just because Scythe's defense on low tracks is probably not good - I haven't actually tested it and it takes hits from above surprisingly well but I doubt it'd work as an LTDC wheel) and showing it puts out similar results to the better attack wheels (it is limited there because it has little smash on its sides so it needs to be under or over something to KO reliably). More would be great (though I think the mold difference is the main thing), but from the discussions had I don't think it's actually going to matter that much, which is why I haven't done a huge amount of formal testing on it for a while now - well, that and the fact that every time I sit down to test either a launcher breaks (usually) or I find something new and more interesting in the process and so on (to the point I've actually forgotten a few though perhaps I have them in some notes somewhere).
As far as I understand it, they wanted to see AA2 Scythe place at a tournament - I assume the conditions are more complex than that but I think it will happen soon enough and I'm trusting them to act quickly so the impact stays nice and small - though as it stands only serious players really know about it so it shouldn't be too bad aside from potentially putting off people in less established tournament scenes (which is what I was worried about, but I think I've worked out a way that if I get this tournament together, I can show how good Scythe is without that happening).
There's already a number of tests that show it being the best at stamina and defense (well, the latter might depend on certain height matchups but overall it's very solid), as well as at least on par with some of the better attack types. As it stands, I think the mold thing is pretty much taken as confirmed by most people at this point too.
If this tournament doesn't happen or for whatever reason my plan to demonstrate how broken it is still doesn't provide sufficient evidence to satisfy the committee, then I will likely do tests showing how it negatively impacts the viability of otherwise useful and often fairly interesting customizations in Limited until it does show up somewhere, just to I guess try to at least partially justify the rather assertive attitude took surrounding the ban discussion.
Oh and yeah the performance I get from Scythe really hasn't changed noticeably at all, maybe a little less side-on smash (top on despite the fact they're worn the contact points only get pushed in from the edge a little further which doesn't matter when it's getting under stuff so whatever), but overall still way too strong. That said, giving up on most Chrome Wheel attack customs (due to the fact they almost all need a 145-height track for one reason or another and that means Scythe wrecks them) has helped make it a bit more palatable, I guess?
As far as I understand it, they wanted to see AA2 Scythe place at a tournament - I assume the conditions are more complex than that but I think it will happen soon enough and I'm trusting them to act quickly so the impact stays nice and small - though as it stands only serious players really know about it so it shouldn't be too bad aside from potentially putting off people in less established tournament scenes (which is what I was worried about, but I think I've worked out a way that if I get this tournament together, I can show how good Scythe is without that happening).
There's already a number of tests that show it being the best at stamina and defense (well, the latter might depend on certain height matchups but overall it's very solid), as well as at least on par with some of the better attack types. As it stands, I think the mold thing is pretty much taken as confirmed by most people at this point too.
If this tournament doesn't happen or for whatever reason my plan to demonstrate how broken it is still doesn't provide sufficient evidence to satisfy the committee, then I will likely do tests showing how it negatively impacts the viability of otherwise useful and often fairly interesting customizations in Limited until it does show up somewhere, just to I guess try to at least partially justify the rather assertive attitude took surrounding the ban discussion.
Oh and yeah the performance I get from Scythe really hasn't changed noticeably at all, maybe a little less side-on smash (top on despite the fact they're worn the contact points only get pushed in from the edge a little further which doesn't matter when it's getting under stuff so whatever), but overall still way too strong. That said, giving up on most Chrome Wheel attack customs (due to the fact they almost all need a 145-height track for one reason or another and that means Scythe wrecks them) has helped make it a bit more palatable, I guess?
I'd like to see Scythe gone by next format. However, I believe we don't have enough testing from members to prove our point. I've only seen testing from some members (mostly me) witch isn't really good as you can't always get a picture with one set of tests. Angryface did PM me sometime ago about helping with Scythe and I never replied. I do fell bad now for not helping him. So if your reading I'm sorry dude.
TBH, I don't think anyone has used Scythe in official tournament play. It's kinda like Gravity in some way; If you don't use it in tournament play it won't get banned. Well, that's how I see it. So I'm hoping we see someone using it soon 'cause it is good with its "AA2" mould.
TBH, I don't think anyone has used Scythe in official tournament play. It's kinda like Gravity in some way; If you don't use it in tournament play it won't get banned. Well, that's how I see it. So I'm hoping we see someone using it soon 'cause it is good with its "AA2" mould.
(Feb. 14, 2014 4:33 PM)The Alchemist Wrote: Yep. Variares doesn't look so good, haha:
Variares F230 CF vs Earth Cancer W145WD
Variares: 6/20 (6 OS'S, 0 KO'S)
Earth: 14/20 (14 OS'S, 0 KO'S)
Variares win %: 30.00
I'm surprised it even got 30.00, haha.
How did you launch... What F230 mold... Why not GCF... Why no MF-L?
So many questions?
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(Feb. 20, 2014 2:53 PM)Aquamarine Wrote:(Feb. 14, 2014 4:33 PM)The Alchemist Wrote: Yep. Variares doesn't look so good, haha:
Variares F230 CF vs Earth Cancer W145WD
Variares: 6/20 (6 OS'S, 0 KO'S)
Earth: 14/20 (14 OS'S, 0 KO'S)
Variares win %: 30.00
I'm surprised it even got 30.00, haha.
How did you launch... What F230 mold... Why not GCF... Why no MF-L?
So many questions?
I think that's more because you're not reading (F230 Mold - quickly discussed and I even explained why I didn't ask myself) or don't know what you're talking about (MF-L - it's not good for spin stealing, might help with recoil or KOing things or whatever, but not good for spin stealing), and the rest are not all that relevant (launch type is going to have minimal effect on a spin stealing match where there were no KO's, and we weren't looking at its ability to KO things anyway, and CF vs GCF is a small difference and if CF fails against Earth W145WD, GCF ain't going to do anything to EWD, aaaand lastly the spin direction he used is obvious).
Yes, he probably should have mentioned the F230 he used, maybe even the direction and launch for clarity, however not only is the post almost a week old, but you're hardly someone who should be criticizing/questioning other's testing and results posting procedure - I mean at least The Alchemist did a full 20 rounds (and his tests weren't even for a combo thread OP!)
This is carrying on from the discussion about 85/90 and tornado stallers in Limited Random Thoughts, here: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-MFB-Limi...pid1197681
I've edited it like a billion times while I played around with stuff and yeah, just woke up so my thoughts are all over the place. Finished just after I made this post - MF-L Burn 85MF is better than I remembered but it's still not really a problem for game balance honestly.
Yes it's a Rock mold and just for the record as I haven't edited beywiki to correct it yet, but it's the same weight as any other mold (I've got one 6 cylinder heavier than it by like .03g, it's heavier than the rest though) - the weight from the cylinders is moved to the underside rim, i.e. more flywheel effect, more attack, better solo spin, etc. Rock has always had good solo spin but poor stamina because of recoil - contact is its problem, and the entire point of tornado stallers is not making contact. It also has a nice sloped shape which provides similar effects to Burn - the ability to ramp opponents off itself. Throw in the fact that tornado stallers often need aggression to handle certain opponents and that Rock has plenty of that (plus good weight to it) and, well, MF Rock Cancer 85MF (0 Cylinder) works pretty darn good. How it matches up to MF-L Burn might vary depending on your meta and getting a 0 cylinder mold isn't that easy afaik, perhaps not worth the hassle, but yeah, it strikes me as more of a threat and even then it's just a good combo, not gamebreaking.
Also keep in mind that I've been using a Metal-Flat based Attack custom for the past few days and am used to launching metal tips to KO stuff. Tornado Stallers need to be able to do this to handle a bunch of fairly common opponents, and it takes a fair bit of practice - they still take a fair bit of skill to be particularly strong.
Finally, if it is a problem as the format currently stands, I think there are enough counters to it right now, and any ban like that would be such a huge change (as 85/90 are really not that overpowered by themselves - it's not a case like Scythe where something is just the best for basically everything, they're good at most types but so are plenty of other options) that we'd want to take plenty of time to let people adapt. While on quickly playing around with some basic setups with them, more defensive tips with very respectable stamina on low tracks such as SB and JSB (again, something in this blogpost I'm writing - they're pretty nice on low tracks) aren't quite enough to OS Burn 85MF (on Earth Cygnus 85SB/JSB) or super solid against KO, there's still plenty of other worthwhile options and we could see new parts or tactics rise to the fore rather than crippling a lot of wheels unnecessarily - and banning 85/90 would set a pretty bad precedent IMO.
In response to TBD's post in the other thread (which would've been responding to my post before I edited it and posted the contents here):
I am actually outspinning or KOing most of those except Scythe Cancer 230D so far. Haven't tried a huge range of things, Earth 230D might be sufficient but Flame PegasisII 230D for example gets outspun after being knocked around a bit. Not doing well with MF-H Libra TH170CS either which previously used to work quite nicely, and Scythe GB145CS is okay but a bit hit and miss - which is new to me as it was wrecking burn the other day.
So yeah, I'm getting much better results than I'm used to - still not enough to really make me worried about the thing (barely enough to make me consider using it instead of Rock or Aquario), but enough that I noticed. A lot of it is because I'm managing to KO stuff more often, thanks to practice, and it's not something I'd want to do in a tournament situation, but given Burn's weight distribution, a little extra weight on the edge could cause noticeable improvements, and I'm using my heaviest Burn (don't know what mold it is, it's from Burn Unicorno SW145JB so I would assume mold 2 or 3, but I've got plenty of stuff from all around that release date so it'd be nothing but random variation), so perhaps that's part of it? Either way though it's still not enough for me to be really scared of the setup or concerned it'll hurt game balance - it has seen use in plenty of places and done OK, but even when F230(G)CF, which it did quite well against, was super popular, it still didn't really stand out that much.
FWIW, MF-L Burn Cancer 85MF is probably not even something I'd swap to LLD for - MF-H Pegasis/Libra CH120RF do well enough against it (because they only need one or two hits while they're moving pretty much at all to KO it - in Libra's case, if Burn hits it from behind somehow it usually results in Burn bouncing out an exit LOL) that I'd be comfortable using them against it. Same thing goes for Rock, perhaps harder to handle with Pegasis but in the end, still not that scary.
Also, the other issue with it is that I still think 85/90 are important for Format Health - removing them makes a massive number of things much stronger, and they don't really strike me as being the problem, but then on the other hand neither does any part of that combination.
If we were to look at it, which would absolutely need significant tournament dominance, I'd personally want to see all of the following things done too:
1. Significant time for the game to adapt to it - not a huge shift - if it's that big there's a problem, but seeing some good but underused things come out of the woodwork or parts that already work well but aren't known in a format without burn tornado stallers is something I would expect to happen.
2. If we do decide then to ban 85/90/100&W105??? (because of the 100-height SonoKong Mold), then I would argue strongly for a predetermined, finite trial period to see if this makes more problems than it resolves and what it would take to resolve them and if that is worthwhile in the first place.
3. See if anything currently banned could help resolve the issue with Tornado Stallers that would have to exist to be looking at this without seriously disrupting the format - eg Gravity (as if tornado stallers are very popular gravity f230(g)cf is probably not going to have a great time anyway). Could also look at Scythe assuming it's banned by then, though IMO Scythe is a lot more of a problem (luckily so far it's not too great as a tornado staller due to lack of real side-on aggression and various other factors) but still.
In the end though, even with the better results I'm getting with MF-L Burn Cancer 85MF today, IMO there are just too many things that are extremely good that it isn't reliably enough against for me to be worried about. Will consider listing it as a full combo I'm willing to lend out for my tournament if need be - put my beypoints where my mouth is, though personally I still think Rock is scarier anyway and I was gonna do it with that (tl;dr planning on lending a few pre-built customs alongside combos people can select from my spare parts or whatever, though I've not run that by staff yet so IDK how they'll feel). So uh yeah I stand by my "you guys are comically overreacting to a single tournament you obviously in which you weren't adequately prepared to take down a reasonably well known combo which has more than one very practical counter."
I've edited it like a billion times while I played around with stuff and yeah, just woke up so my thoughts are all over the place. Finished just after I made this post - MF-L Burn 85MF is better than I remembered but it's still not really a problem for game balance honestly.
Yes it's a Rock mold and just for the record as I haven't edited beywiki to correct it yet, but it's the same weight as any other mold (I've got one 6 cylinder heavier than it by like .03g, it's heavier than the rest though) - the weight from the cylinders is moved to the underside rim, i.e. more flywheel effect, more attack, better solo spin, etc. Rock has always had good solo spin but poor stamina because of recoil - contact is its problem, and the entire point of tornado stallers is not making contact. It also has a nice sloped shape which provides similar effects to Burn - the ability to ramp opponents off itself. Throw in the fact that tornado stallers often need aggression to handle certain opponents and that Rock has plenty of that (plus good weight to it) and, well, MF Rock Cancer 85MF (0 Cylinder) works pretty darn good. How it matches up to MF-L Burn might vary depending on your meta and getting a 0 cylinder mold isn't that easy afaik, perhaps not worth the hassle, but yeah, it strikes me as more of a threat and even then it's just a good combo, not gamebreaking.
Also keep in mind that I've been using a Metal-Flat based Attack custom for the past few days and am used to launching metal tips to KO stuff. Tornado Stallers need to be able to do this to handle a bunch of fairly common opponents, and it takes a fair bit of practice - they still take a fair bit of skill to be particularly strong.
Finally, if it is a problem as the format currently stands, I think there are enough counters to it right now, and any ban like that would be such a huge change (as 85/90 are really not that overpowered by themselves - it's not a case like Scythe where something is just the best for basically everything, they're good at most types but so are plenty of other options) that we'd want to take plenty of time to let people adapt. While on quickly playing around with some basic setups with them, more defensive tips with very respectable stamina on low tracks such as SB and JSB (again, something in this blogpost I'm writing - they're pretty nice on low tracks) aren't quite enough to OS Burn 85MF (on Earth Cygnus 85SB/JSB) or super solid against KO, there's still plenty of other worthwhile options and we could see new parts or tactics rise to the fore rather than crippling a lot of wheels unnecessarily - and banning 85/90 would set a pretty bad precedent IMO.
In response to TBD's post in the other thread (which would've been responding to my post before I edited it and posted the contents here):
I am actually outspinning or KOing most of those except Scythe Cancer 230D so far. Haven't tried a huge range of things, Earth 230D might be sufficient but Flame PegasisII 230D for example gets outspun after being knocked around a bit. Not doing well with MF-H Libra TH170CS either which previously used to work quite nicely, and Scythe GB145CS is okay but a bit hit and miss - which is new to me as it was wrecking burn the other day.
So yeah, I'm getting much better results than I'm used to - still not enough to really make me worried about the thing (barely enough to make me consider using it instead of Rock or Aquario), but enough that I noticed. A lot of it is because I'm managing to KO stuff more often, thanks to practice, and it's not something I'd want to do in a tournament situation, but given Burn's weight distribution, a little extra weight on the edge could cause noticeable improvements, and I'm using my heaviest Burn (don't know what mold it is, it's from Burn Unicorno SW145JB so I would assume mold 2 or 3, but I've got plenty of stuff from all around that release date so it'd be nothing but random variation), so perhaps that's part of it? Either way though it's still not enough for me to be really scared of the setup or concerned it'll hurt game balance - it has seen use in plenty of places and done OK, but even when F230(G)CF, which it did quite well against, was super popular, it still didn't really stand out that much.
FWIW, MF-L Burn Cancer 85MF is probably not even something I'd swap to LLD for - MF-H Pegasis/Libra CH120RF do well enough against it (because they only need one or two hits while they're moving pretty much at all to KO it - in Libra's case, if Burn hits it from behind somehow it usually results in Burn bouncing out an exit LOL) that I'd be comfortable using them against it. Same thing goes for Rock, perhaps harder to handle with Pegasis but in the end, still not that scary.
Also, the other issue with it is that I still think 85/90 are important for Format Health - removing them makes a massive number of things much stronger, and they don't really strike me as being the problem, but then on the other hand neither does any part of that combination.
If we were to look at it, which would absolutely need significant tournament dominance, I'd personally want to see all of the following things done too:
1. Significant time for the game to adapt to it - not a huge shift - if it's that big there's a problem, but seeing some good but underused things come out of the woodwork or parts that already work well but aren't known in a format without burn tornado stallers is something I would expect to happen.
2. If we do decide then to ban 85/90/100&W105??? (because of the 100-height SonoKong Mold), then I would argue strongly for a predetermined, finite trial period to see if this makes more problems than it resolves and what it would take to resolve them and if that is worthwhile in the first place.
3. See if anything currently banned could help resolve the issue with Tornado Stallers that would have to exist to be looking at this without seriously disrupting the format - eg Gravity (as if tornado stallers are very popular gravity f230(g)cf is probably not going to have a great time anyway). Could also look at Scythe assuming it's banned by then, though IMO Scythe is a lot more of a problem (luckily so far it's not too great as a tornado staller due to lack of real side-on aggression and various other factors) but still.
In the end though, even with the better results I'm getting with MF-L Burn Cancer 85MF today, IMO there are just too many things that are extremely good that it isn't reliably enough against for me to be worried about. Will consider listing it as a full combo I'm willing to lend out for my tournament if need be - put my beypoints where my mouth is, though personally I still think Rock is scarier anyway and I was gonna do it with that (tl;dr planning on lending a few pre-built customs alongside combos people can select from my spare parts or whatever, though I've not run that by staff yet so IDK how they'll feel). So uh yeah I stand by my "you guys are comically overreacting to a single tournament you obviously in which you weren't adequately prepared to take down a reasonably well known combo which has more than one very practical counter."
Any news on the march 1st update?
There were not any updates to be made as far as I know, so there wasn't an update.
I wonder what happened to banning scythe.... I guess they decided not too...?
Scythe's ban depends on tournament performance.
As for March 1, Jade being unbanned will hopefully happen, so the qualifiers are done with it, unless there are any objections. I'll make a quadruple post in the advanced forum thread about it later today.
As for March 1, Jade being unbanned will hopefully happen, so the qualifiers are done with it, unless there are any objections. I'll make a quadruple post in the advanced forum thread about it later today.
If Scythe were to be banned would the Hasbro Duo move up the stamina ladder and replace Scythe? Also how can I tell which Scythe mold I have?
Look at the numbers on the underside of the crossbars the CW sits on. Let us know if it's AA2 (the good one) or anything higher than 4 (as so far we know of 1-4, nothing more).
Duo outspins the lesser molds of Scythe apparently so technically it is already around there. That said personally between it being so light and not being able to use low tracks, Earth and Burn still have their spaces. With AA2 Scythe (or apparently Tri's AA1) MF-L Scythe Cancer B outspins everything not scythe or maybe Duo if Duo has a good height matchup or something? At the least, Earth/Burn can't do anything about it.
Duo outspins the lesser molds of Scythe apparently so technically it is already around there. That said personally between it being so light and not being able to use low tracks, Earth and Burn still have their spaces. With AA2 Scythe (or apparently Tri's AA1) MF-L Scythe Cancer B
outspins everything not scythe or maybe Duo if Duo has a good height matchup or something? At the least, Earth/Burn can't do anything about it.
I have the AA1 and AA3 molds 
Tri's AA1 seems to work very nicely for him, so that is not so bad. It's still an excellent wheel anyway.
Alright, I was disappointed for a second cause I thought neither were good enough.
I updated the OP with the 1.2 update!
just asking generally if the new ban list be followed for the qualifiers and all?