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MF-L Phantom (Attack) Cygnus 85MF - A Combo Revisted

Oct. 26, 2012  6:52 PM
 
MF-L Phantom (Attack Mode) Cygnus 85MF

Note: This custom is an "evolution" of sorts of Phantom Hades 90MF, the thread for which is here:
http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Phantom-...ed-6-11-12
That thread covers the idea behind this custom in great detail, so if you missed it the first time, check that thread out!


A long time ago I posted a thread for Phantom Hades 90MF and it has long been my favorite custom. The idea behind it was to create a stamina/attack hybrid that could OS any defender by tornado stalling and KO any stamina bey by attacking into it. While test results were really good, I took it to a tournament awhile back only to discover that its recoil really did prove to be a problem. I still believed that with some modifications the idea behind the custom could still become competitive, and that's led me to this variant.

The changes in performance have been so dramatic that now this variant of this custom actually OSes top-tier stamina types consistently. I'm talking 100% win rates against Duo ___ W145WD consistent, and I hope I don't need to tell you that that is really good. What I'm hoping to show in this thread is that tornado stalling is not just a viable tactic, it's actually a top-tier stamina strategy that Metal Flat is the king of.

If you missed it the first time, what this custom does is tornado stall for a very long time and then slowly approach its foe as it slows down. By the time Phantom gets to the center, the other bey is already spinning very slowly and the combination of 85 and Phantom's attack mode make destabilizing it a breeze. This was how the first version of the combo beat defense types (and it still does); now it's doing the same thing to top-tier stamina customs as well.


Let me take this opportunity to discuss what's different about the combo. The majority of the changes were made to try and minimize the recoil as much as possible:
  • I added a MF-L to give the custom some more weight to tame its recoil. I settled on MF-L since it is the most outwardly-distributed metal face, and because I didn't want to put too much weight in the center lest the custom lose some of its stamina.
  • I changed Hades to Cygnus on a hunch, and so far it has actually performed better for this custom. I'm still a huge fan of Hades on Phantom, but Cygnus has been excellent to me lately.
  • I changed 90 to 85 to give the bey a lower center of gravity in the hope that it would help tame the recoil, and so far it seems to have done just that. Technically 90 would offer slightly better contact against most things I used to try to KO, but the stamina I get out of it means I don't have to attack into foes unless I'm feeling particularly ballsy.

The changes worked, and I'm actually noticing improved solo spin times and results against stamina types on top of better recoil handling. I can now safely say that this is certainly a very competitive combo, and I honestly think it is good enough to be top-tier for balance. I'll let the test results and a video of this vs. Duo Gasher W145WD do the rest of the talking.


Videos

MF-L Phantom Cygnus 85MF vs. Duo Gasher W145WD



Test Results

BB-10 Attack Stadium
Beylauncher LR with Suspension
Standard Procedure
_______________________________

Vs. Stamina

MF-L Phantom (Attack) Cygnus 85MF vs. Duo Gasher W145WD
Duo always launched first.
Detail Results (Click to View)
Phantom: 20 (13 OS, 7 KO)
Duo: 0 (0 OS, 0 KO)
Phantom Win %: 100.0%

That's right, 100%. This custom simply has more stamina than Duo ___ W145WD, and if Duo ever strayed into the path of Phantom it'd always get KOed. I did straight shots every time to put Phantom into a tornado stall and it worked like a charm.

MF-L Phantom Cygnus 85MF vs. Duo Gasher 230D
Duo always launched first.
Detail Results (Click to View)
Phantom: 20 (20 OS, 0 KO)
Duo: 0 (0 OS, 0 KO)
Phantom Win %: 100.0%

No contest here, Duo would be low on spin and Phantom just had to tap it to knock it over. I didn't even need to try to KO this custom, 85MF just had straight-up more stamina.

MF-L Phantom Cygnus 85MF vs. Duo Gasher TH220D
Duo always launched first.
Detail Results (Click to View)
Phantom: 20 (15 OS, 5 KO)
Duo: 0 (0 OS, 0 KO)
Phantom Win %: 100.0%

Again, this custom just has flat-out more stamina than our top-tier stamina customs. The KOs were just gravy.

MF-L Phantom Cygnus 85MF vs. Duo Gasher BD145EDS
Duo always launched first.
Detail Results (Click to View)
Phantom: 20 (20 OS, 0 KO)
Duo: 0 (0 OS, 0 KO)
Phantom Win %: 100.0%

No contest, BD145EDS scrapes early and Phantom just ate this for breakfast. At least, that's what happens with Duo... What about Phantom?

MF-L Phantom Cygnus 85MF vs. Phantom Hades BD145EDS
BD145EDS always launched first.
Detail Results (Click to View)
85MF: 20 (12 OS, 8 KO)
BD145EDS: 0 (0 OS, 0 KO)
85MF Win %: 100.0%

This match-up was really odd, because tornado stalling actually didn't work very well; the two ties were because I tried tornado stalling and BD145EDS ended up having comparable stamina. Against my better judgement, I switched to attacking into BD145EDS, and 85MF won every time. I don't really know why since in theory attacking into it would really hurt 85MF's overall stamina, but that's the opposite of what I observed. On a side note, Phantom BD145EDS is SIGNIFICANTLY better than Duo BD145EDS if my observations are right.

_______________________________

Vs. Spin-Stealer

MF-L Phantom Cygnus 85MF vs. MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD
Dragooon always launched first.
Detail Results (Click to View)
Phantom: 1 (0 OS, 1 KO)
Dragooon: 19 (15 OS, 4 KO)
Phantom Win %: 5.0%

Dragooon was almost unbeatable; SA165 was actually absorbing hits really well, and if I tornado stalled Dragooon had enough stamina to survive until Phantom reached the center to help spin it back up to speed. Since it came down to low spin rates, MF's inability to precess anywhere near the level that EWD can did it no favors, and Phantom couldn't destabilize it like right-spin stamina combos since, well, it's left-spin.

_______________________________

Vs. Balance

MF-L Phantom Cygnus 85MF vs. MF-M Duo Gasher 230MB
Duo always launched first.
Detail Results (Click to View)
Phantom: 10 (2 OS, 8 KO)
Duo: 10 (7 OS, 3 KO)
Phantom Win %: 50.0%

This match-up was still dead even. After Phantom's performance against Duo 230D, I was kind of surprised this wasn't as one-sided, but Duo 230MB is one heck of a combo. This match-up came down to how well I launched Phantom; if I got it into a perfect tornado stall, then it both had a chance to OS Duo AND KO it if Duo wandered into Phantom's path (which it sometimes does on MB). If the launch was even the slightest bit off, though, Duo came out on top.


Closing Remarks

So these tests took the better half of forever I'd say, and as such I didn't get around to the vs. Defense tests with this updated version of this combo. That said, from informal testing and just from looking at the vs. Stamina results, I am certain the vs. Defense tests will be exactly like the results from Phantom Hades 90MF, which means 100% win rates.

So, I hope this shows the potential this combo has! Give it a try, do your own tests, and post your results! I'll do as many requests as I can get to, though college is kind of slowing me down in that regard.
Oct. 26, 2012  7:01 PM
 
Interesting. Can you test against syncrom customs like Reviser Reviser B:D next please? Please I'd also be very interested in seeing how it does against MSF Dragooon Dragooon BD145RDF since that combo dominates in the UK. It's very powerful. Also tests against LDD and Gravity BD145RDF would be good too.
Oct. 26, 2012  10:11 PM
 
Lol I told you I thought 85 was better for this lol I have been adoring Phantom for attack lately in this set up but don't trust it vs some Zero-G Stuff and can't beat Duo With it still D: Could you try This vs
MF-L Duo ____ 230D? or MF-L Duo ____SA165(Insert Best Tip here)
Oct. 27, 2012  2:54 AM
 
I can test this against most things pre-0G and a few synchroms (no W145, but I have Thief Phoenic, DKD and Pirates Revizer M145CF). Do you have any requests? I'd be able to post tests on Sunday.
Oct. 28, 2012  3:34 AM
 
I would like to see tests against MSF-L Killerken/Reviser Dragooon 85/DF105 MF.
Oct. 28, 2012  10:15 AM
 
I'm happy due to Ingulit Joyful_3
he comes up with combos which i can make,phantom orion 90mf was a huge success for me in tournaments
4 wins out of possible 5!
i will test this combo using my friend's(sharven12) BB-10,as he also has 85,i don't have sickness,so i should go with orion,the best thing about both these combos is if they can't KO,they'll OS,
but this 85mf combo seems to be a little weak against spin-stealers,i was having problems defeating,MLD CH120WD with 90MF combo of yours,so this seems to be a major problem,these two combos won't be in top-tier list.
you should also test it against attack combos as well
Oct. 28, 2012  11:31 AM
 
If you battle against a spin stealer, try to KO your opponent. Don't just try to OS him/her. As it is stated above, the test against a spin stealer, if you can not KO that combo, you will lose.

Oct. 28, 2012  3:39 PM
 
So viable CW's to replace Hades/Cygnus would be the ones mentioned in the old thread?

This is pretty much what I always felt Phantom should be used for. Attack-Stamina Meta.
I use MF-F Phantom Cancer AD145 RF, and it seems to be something like this. Minus the stamina capacity.
I'll see if I can supply tests against Basalt, to see if Basalt still eats spin like it used to. As well as the recoil.
Oct. 28, 2012  6:42 PM
 
Apologies for not replying sooner; I'll do as many of these requests as I can, but I'm rather busy so it might be a couple of days before I get around to everything (I'll try, though!).

(Oct. 26, 2012  7:01 PM)Ultra Wrote: Interesting. Can you test against syncrom customs like Reviser Reviser BGrin next please? Please I'd also be very interested in seeing how it does against MSF Dragooon Dragooon BD145RDF since that combo dominates in the UK. It's very powerful. Also tests against LDD and Gravity BD145RDF would be good too.

Reviser Reviser BGrin is an interesting request; is that actually being used in tournaments? I can do that test, but it's odd, haha! I can also do MSF-H ____ Dragooon BD145RDF, but I don't have that many Dragooons to do your exact request. I'll definitely do LDG/Gravity BD145RDF.

(Oct. 26, 2012  10:11 PM)*Billy* Wrote: Lol I told you I thought 85 was better for this lol I have been adoring Phantom for attack lately in this set up but don't trust it vs some Zero-G Stuff and can't beat Duo With it still D: Could you try This vs
MF-L Duo ____ 230D? or MF-L Duo ____SA165(Insert Best Tip here)

Yeah, 85 did turn out to be better after all Tongue_out

I did do the Duo 230D request in the op sans the MF-L; I mean, I can do that request, but I imagine the results will be the same. And yeah, I can do the SA165 request, but are you wanting me to test stamina tips or defense tips? SA165 isn't that great for stamina, unfortunately.

(Oct. 28, 2012  3:34 AM)Ultimo Wrote: I would like to see tests against MSF-L Killerken/Reviser Dragooon 85/DF105 MF.

I don't have Killerken yet, but I can do these with Reviser. This is another interesting request, haha!

(Oct. 28, 2012  10:15 AM)zeneo Wrote: I'm happy due to Ingulit Joyful_3
he comes up with combos which i can make,phantom orion 90mf was a huge success for me in tournaments
4 wins out of possible 5!
i will test this combo using my friend's(sharven12) BB-10,as he also has 85,i don't have sickness,so i should go with orion,the best thing about both these combos is if they can't KO,they'll OS,
but this 85mf combo seems to be a little weak against spin-stealers,i was having problems defeating,MLD CH120WD with 90MF combo of yours,so this seems to be a major problem,these two combos won't be in top-tier list.
you should also test it against attack combos as well

I'm glad you like the combo Grin

Yeah, spin-stealers can be a problem for this custom, but what wpardin said is right about trying to KO them rather than OS them. The issue is when the spin stealer is really heavy and is utilizing a low-attack-nullifying track (read: MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD) since it's hard to get a clean hit to KO it.

I'll do some attack tests, sure! I personally would avoid using this against attack where possible since this has very low defense, but this custom might have enough attack of its own to KO the other attacker before it gets KOed itself.

(Oct. 28, 2012  11:31 AM)wpardin Wrote: If you battle against a spin stealer, try to KO your opponent. Don't just try to OS him/her. As it is stated above, the test against a spin stealer, if you can not KO that combo, you will lose.

Like I mentioned before, this is exactly right. Against lighter spin stealers like MLD this is definitely the way to go. BD145RDF spin stealers would be harder to KO, but I feel like they might not have enough stamina to beat a tornado stall IF the RDF custom doesn't go aggro and manages to inturrupt the tornado stall. The biggest problem, like I said, is probably SA165.

(Oct. 28, 2012  3:39 PM)Kujikato Wrote: So viable CW's to replace Hades/Cygnus would be the ones mentioned in the old thread?

This is pretty much what I always felt Phantom should be used for. Attack-Stamina Meta.
I use MF-F Phantom Cancer AD145 RF, and it seems to be something like this. Minus the stamina capacity.
I'll see if I can supply tests against Basalt, to see if Basalt still eats spin like it used to. As well as the recoil.

Yes sir, those clear wheels should be good. That brings up an important point that I'm going to bold for emphasis: while Hades and Cygnus are better clear wheels for this custom, it's not as important as the overall stability of the custom. That is, to perform well, all of the parts of the custom need to be very tight and immobile. A good example of this is MF: my two MFs from Screw Capricorns are both somewhat shaky, in that the metal tip wiggles a little bit rather than being absolutely secure against the plastic of the tip. My MF from Spiral Lyre, however, is very, very sturdy, and I have noticed a SIGNIFICANT improvement in performance while using it. If your tips rattle or your Phantom's PC core doesn't like to stay in the Metal Frame, you won't get the same results as if everything was nice and tight.

I completely agree with what you said about Phantom being good for Attack-Stamina. Let's face it, on MOST setups Duo provides great stamina with significanly less recoil than Phantom, such that typically Duo is better for standard stamina. I feel like if you aren't using what attack Phantom has, you're not using it to its fullest potential.

Basalt tests would be lovely. Typically this custom can tornado stall around Basalt to avoid the grinding, but Basalt likes to be aggressive on most tips and can get in the way of a perfect stall.
Oct. 28, 2012  7:59 PM
 
I thought SA165 was good from the testing thread guess it has better Survival Stamina like Duo then Solo Spin, Just forget the SA165 Test then, I should have read more before posting about Duo 230D XD
And I always knew my Phantom and MFs were kinda rusty but I dind't think that had a large impact in performance enough to make it lose to Duo when it's not very dense I guess, It would throw the synergy off a bit.
Oct. 29, 2012  5:47 PM
 
Ingulit,since you don't have Killerken, please try to test against this: MSF-L Revizer Dragooon 90 MF.
Oct. 29, 2012  5:55 PM
 
If you're going for stamina, why did you choose the more recoil-prone mode of Phantom?

Also, some attack tests against a standard attack combo (Flash W145RF/R2F) and an anti-attack combo (Diablo BD145RF) would be real nice. The former I'm curious to see if they can KO it (the former because of reach and the latter because of BD145). I'm too busy at the moment to test for myself, sadly.
Oct. 29, 2012  6:13 PM
 
Ingulit, like Technocrat stated, the aims isn't really to KO. Its beneficial id the combo can KO, but the purpose of this combo is to OS. I actually was wondering if you could do a comparison between this combo and
MF-L Duo Cygnus 85 MF. Duo has no attack power whatsoever, but in its stamina mode, it'll still OS everything pretty consistently. Please do try to test when you have the time.
Oct. 29, 2012  7:36 PM
 
(Oct. 29, 2012  5:55 PM)Technocrat Wrote: If you're going for stamina, why did you choose the more recoil-prone mode of Phantom?

Also, some attack tests against a standard attack combo (Flash W145RF/R2F) and an anti-attack combo (Diablo BD145RF) would be real nice. The former I'm curious to see if they can KO it (the former because of reach and the latter because of BD145). I'm too busy at the moment to test for myself, sadly.

While Attack mode is more recoil-prone, in informal tests it has shown to be better at destabilizing an opponent at the end of a battle (after it's tornado stalled for a long time) which is how this custom is supposed to work. It's also more versatile since you CAN attack into the opponent if you want, and Attack mode lets you get the most out of that option.

Yeah, I'm going to test attackers for sure, and I'll give anti-attackers a whirl too. I'll get around to them as soon as I can; I've got a lot of requests and not a lot of time to do them, lol
Oct. 31, 2012  1:49 AM
 
(Oct. 29, 2012  6:13 PM)Ultimo Wrote: Ingulit, like Technocrat stated, the aims isn't really to KO. Its beneficial id the combo can KO, but the purpose of this combo is to OS. I actually was wondering if you could do a comparison between this combo and
MF-L Duo Cygnus 85 MF. Duo has no attack power whatsoever, but in its stamina mode, it'll still OS everything pretty consistently. Please do try to test when you have the time.

surely with how duo overhangs the track this combo would scrape on 85. in my experience tracks for duo and death should never go below the 100 boundary
Oct. 31, 2012  2:04 AM
 
Phantom's diameter is wider than Duo & Death. If Phantom can use 85, so can Duo & Death. Just don't tilt the launcher when you launch, you will be fine.
Oct. 31, 2012  4:20 AM
 
i don't think the Duo Variant would work, I think Duo might be best at anti Attack, since no recoil and movement would make it harder to get a hard KO hit in but this might back fire if the attack type is faster, the reason Duo Wouldn't be able to beat a Stamina type would be that Duo wins by not having recoil which is why Duo is losing here, Phantom has a better spin time, Basically Phantom will spin longer and OS Duo if they don't battle, at the point of where Phantom actually makes contact Duo is barely spinning and stops first, a MF-L Duo Cyngus 85 MF would stop spinning first cause it doesn't spin as long as phantom, and wasting it Spin by dashing around the stadium with out surplus Spin Time such as Phantom will surely make it lose to any Duo custom likely Phantom too.
Oct. 31, 2012  5:20 AM
 
(Oct. 31, 2012  2:04 AM)wpardin Wrote: Phantom's diameter is wider than Duo & Death. If Phantom can use 85, so can Duo & Death. Just don't tilt the launcher when you launch, you will be fine.

Duo has the overhang, remember? That alters it a fair bit. I haven't tested this combination in particular, but from the LTSC stuff I did, I suspect you'd get a lot of late-game scraping with Duo.
Not to mention the decreased versatility and Phantom's better weight distribution.
Oct. 31, 2012  6:15 PM
 
Ingulit: If Duo scrapes on 85, I request you to test MF-L/MF-F Duo Cygnus 100/DF105 MF. I really want to see a comparison...
Nov. 01, 2012  10:59 PM
 
Phantom works for this combo because of its weight distribution and slightly offensive design. Duo's great Stamina comes from its weight distribution and extreme lack of recoil. Despite both wheels' great distributions of weight, Duo can't reach the same solo-spin times as Phantom due to their differences in weight distribution.

Because this combo, when chosen to be used as a tornado-staller, doesn't make contact with its opponent for the majority of the battle, solo-spin times become far more important. This is the reason why a similar, just as effective combo couldn't have been made until the release of Phantom because no other MW could achieve solo-spin times as high as its.
Nov. 05, 2012  4:26 PM
 
Technically, this was proceeded by Burn. So both are basically stamina-attack meta. So yeah, back when burn was stamina king, you could do Burn Cancer 90 Wf/XF...
Aug. 12, 2013  2:55 PM
 
First of all, yes, I realize this is a big necro, but people wanted tests on this in the Public Top Tier discussion, and discussion on this combo is still very relevant, so I'm necroing this.

Standard Procedure
Phantom in Attack Mode
Duo in Stamina Mode
MF-L Phantom Gasher 85 MF(Tornado Stall) vs Duo Sagittario 2 W145 WD
Phantom: 15 Wins(13 OS, 2 KO)
Duo: 5 Wins(All OS)
Phantom Win Rate: 75%

The observant ones among you are probably wondering how I KO'd while tornado stalling. On the first KO, Phantom tornado stalled, but then KO'd Duo when it got to the center. On the second KO, Phantom hit Duo at the beginning of the stall, and KO'd it.

Anyways, this was quite weird... for the first few rounds, Duo was almost always winning, but after that, Phantom never lost again...?

MF-L Phantom Gasher 85 MF(Tornado Stall) vs MF-M Duo Sagittario 2 230 MB
Phantom: 10 Wins(5 OS, 5 KO)
Duo: 10 Wins(9 OS, 1 KO)
Phantom Win Rate: 50%

This time, when Duo would disrupt the stall, Phantom would sometimes KO.

I'd like to request this combo against Phantom Cancer W145 WD. Since Phantom has better solo spin times than Duo, I think a mirror MW match may give it trouble.
Aug. 12, 2013  5:37 PM
 
(Aug. 12, 2013  2:55 PM)ShinobuXD Wrote: I'd like to request this combo against Phantom Cancer W145 WD. Since Phantom has better solo spin times than Duo, I think a mirror MW match may give it trouble.

True, but Phantom's recoil will make KOs much easier.

Also, Duo = Phantom for solo spin iirc, the difference, if there is one, is usually based on mold. For instance, GuardianRevizer's Duo can spin for five minutes on Duo Cancer AD145WD, but using the same parts my Phantom gets just under four.
Aug. 13, 2013  7:39 PM
 
Huh... pretty impressive! Smile I'd say that's some top-tier material, going by the tests in the OP as well. The only serious disadvantage would be against attack :\ And I can't imagine that this handles left-spin very well...
Aug. 13, 2013  8:50 PM
 
RDF variants die a terrible death against this... even if RDF is launched aggressively, usually Phantom can avoid its opponent for long enough to win by OS. Furthermore, this combo can sometimes avoid attack, given its aggressive movement.

However, ______ Dragooon SA165EWD beats the carp out of this thing... you will NEVER win unless you happen to be really lucky or Meow!, and KO it.

I use my own variant of this, MF Phantom (Attack) Cancer 100CF. It gets better LAD and handles spin stealers slightly better than 85MF does. The only disadvantage is that CF may skip over the tornado ridge if launched too hard or incorrectly.
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