[LTD] The Case For Unbanning Hell

(Jun. 26, 2015  2:36 AM)UltimateOrion Wrote: MF-L Hell Cancer 230CS VS MF-H Lightning L-Drago CH120R2F

Hell:6/20(4 KO 2 OS)
Lightning:14/20 (14 KO)
Hell Win Rate:30%
OMG i'm so bad with Left spin attack XD i got 70% for Hell on CH120 and 65% for CH145... i got a lot better results with omega, 25% win rate for Hell. (My LRF was brand new so that could have been a possible problem haha) (also was using A1 no paint Hell metal)
(Aug. 09, 2014  8:22 PM)Leone19 Wrote: Since I'll be offline for the next week, I'd love to see someone do tests with Hell 230 CS, since that's the main reason stated that Hell had to be banned.


I did some testing with the hell 230cs combo against my limited combo flame 145es, and flame won every time, I think that it should be unbanned.
(Jun. 26, 2015  5:49 AM)blader1000x Wrote:
(Aug. 09, 2014  8:22 PM)Leone19 Wrote: Since I'll be offline for the next week, I'd love to see someone do tests with Hell 230 CS, since that's the main reason stated that Hell had to be banned.


I did some testing with the hell 230cs combo against my limited combo flame 145es, and flame won every time, I think that it should be unbanned.

Wow really? That Flame combo isn't even good.
(Jun. 26, 2015  5:49 AM)blader1000x Wrote:
(Aug. 09, 2014  8:22 PM)Leone19 Wrote: Since I'll be offline for the next week, I'd love to see someone do tests with Hell 230 CS, since that's the main reason stated that Hell had to be banned.


I did some testing with the hell 230cs combo against my limited combo flame 145es, and flame won every time, I think that it should be unbanned.

I think results would be mandatory for proof of such an occasion.
What would be interesting to see is Hell 230CS against a Dark Knight Girago LTAC. While we see that Lightning got decent results in UltimateOrion's testing, Girago is a bit more capable of late-game KO's, which can be kind of beneficial against Hell if it doesn't get one earlier one in the match.

And blader1000x- that's pretty surprising. A combo with a high track and a bottom with a decent amount of stamina shouldn't be losing against a lower stamina combo, not to mention one with very little LAD.
(Jun. 26, 2015  3:05 PM)Mitsu Wrote: What would be interesting to see is Hell 230CS against a Dark Knight Girago LTAC. While we see that Lightning got decent results in UltimateOrion's testing, Girago is a bit more capable of late-game KO's, which can be kind of beneficial against Hell if it doesn't get one earlier one in the match.
The thing is that combo would be too low since hell is extremely tall; you would have to use CH120 on that Girago to even get some hits on it.
Hey guys i will be live stream the tests of this combo on twitch tv check it out if you want Grin

http://www.twitch.tv/1234beyblade
MF-H Hell Cancer 230RS VS MF-H Lightning L-Drago CH120RF
Hell: 7/10(7 OS)
Lightning:3/10(3 KO)
Hell Win Rate:70%

MF-H Hell Cancer 230RS VS MF-H Lightning L-Drago CH120(145 mode)RF
Hell:5/10(2 KO 3 OS)
Lightning:5/10(5 KO)
Hell Win Rate:50%

MF-M Hell Uranus 85RF VS MF-H Libra 230RS
Hell:4/10(4 KO)
Libra:6/10(6 OS)
Hell Win Rate:40%

MF-M Hell Uranus 85MF VS MF-H Libra CH120RF
Hell:13/20
Libra:7/20
Hell Win Rate:65%

MF-M Hell Uranus 85MF VS MF-L Scythe Aquario W145WD
Hell:14/20(14 KO)
Scythe:6/20(3 KO 3OS)

MF-M Hell Uranus 85MF VS MF-M Leone 85RF
Hell:1/10(1 KO)
Leone:9/10(9 KO)
Hell Win Rate:10%

I did 10 rounds on most of these because i didn't want to wear out my parts.


1234Beyblade has so many tests.
I've done Hell F230GCF vs. Burn 90MF but unfortunately that's all I had time for today.

MF-L Hell Kerbecs F230GCF vs. MF-L Burn Cancer 90MF
Kerbecs: 4 wins (3 KO, 1 OS)
Cancer: 16 wins (4 KO, 12 OS)
Kerbecs win rate: 20%

Pretty sad display, despite the fact I was using a TT Orange F230.
I have a total of about 35 different tests, i will try my best to post them today since i'm going away to my cottage tomorrow. (Took 8 hours and about 720 round tests to get these results haha, i'm really determined to get Hell un-banned)
(Jun. 26, 2015  2:41 PM)UltimateOrion Wrote:
(Jun. 26, 2015  5:49 AM)blader1000x Wrote:
(Aug. 09, 2014  8:22 PM)Leone19 Wrote: Since I'll be offline for the next week, I'd love to see someone do tests with Hell 230 CS, since that's the main reason stated that Hell had to be banned.


I did some testing with the hell 230cs combo against my limited combo flame 145es, and flame won every time, I think that it should be unbanned.

Wow really? That Flame combo isn't even good.

Thats what I thought, then I tried It out, it can take an uppercut like any important character to battle Benkei's bull

(Jun. 26, 2015  2:45 PM)1234beyblade Wrote:
(Jun. 26, 2015  5:49 AM)blader1000x Wrote:
(Aug. 09, 2014  8:22 PM)Leone19 Wrote: Since I'll be offline for the next week, I'd love to see someone do tests with Hell 230 CS, since that's the main reason stated that Hell had to be banned.


I did some testing with the hell 230cs combo against my limited combo flame 145es, and flame won every time, I think that it should be unbanned.

I think results would be mandatory for proof of such an occasion.

Two sleep outs and hell was even flipped on its face the third time.
(Jun. 26, 2015  10:53 PM)blader1000x Wrote:
(Jun. 26, 2015  2:41 PM)UltimateOrion Wrote:
(Jun. 26, 2015  5:49 AM)blader1000x Wrote: I did some testing with the hell 230cs combo against my limited combo flame 145es, and flame won every time, I think that it should be unbanned.

Wow really? That Flame combo isn't even good.

Thats what I thought, then I tried It out, it can take an uppercut like any important character to battle Benkei's bull

(Jun. 26, 2015  2:45 PM)1234beyblade Wrote:
(Jun. 26, 2015  5:49 AM)blader1000x Wrote: I did some testing with the hell 230cs combo against my limited combo flame 145es, and flame won every time, I think that it should be unbanned.

I think results would be mandatory for proof of such an occasion.

Two sleep outs and hell was even flipped on its face

You have to do 20 rounds.
(Jun. 26, 2015  11:03 PM)UltimateOrion Wrote:
(Jun. 26, 2015  10:53 PM)blader1000x Wrote:
(Jun. 26, 2015  2:41 PM)UltimateOrion Wrote: Wow really? That Flame combo isn't even good.

Thats what I thought, then I tried It out, it can take an uppercut like any important character to battle Benkei's bull

(Jun. 26, 2015  2:45 PM)1234beyblade Wrote: I think results would be mandatory for proof of such an occasion.

Two sleep outs and hell was even flipped on its face

You have to do 20 rounds.

Challenge accepted!!!

After 20 rounds of MF2-F Flame Aquario 145ES V.S MF2-H Hell Leone 230CS, Flame one 15 rounds while Hell only one 5. I still say Hell should be unbanned in hopes of better combos.
So here are the few tests that i did that will hopefully help in the un-banning of hell.

R2F's were all prime, usually by the end they proved useless, the LRF was brand new, RS' were all brand new and so was the CS. F230 was the brown one, on my stream you can see that the F230 was really good. EWD was a bit worn and had a small flat part on the bottom but did not really affect the performance.

Hell Combos: MF-H Hell Horuseus 85R2F, MF-H Hell Cancer 85RS, MF-H Hell Cancer 230CS, MF-H Hell Cancer F230GCF, Hell Cancer B: D and Hell Cancer 85WD/EWD.

Benchmark:

MF-H Hell Horuseus 85R2F:

MF-H Hell Cancer 230CS:

MF-H Hell Cancer 85RS:

Hell Cancer 85WD/EWD:

Hell Cancer B: D:

MF-H Hell Cancer F230GCF:

Here are some pictures of the parts after the tests:

Hopefully these tests help in the un-banning of the Hell wheel in Limited format! A Six hour video of the tests is being uploaded to my youtube channel and I will add it to this post after it is done. The video does not include tests of MF-H Hell Horuseus 85R2F!



Decided to try Hell out to seem if it should be unbanned or continue to be banned. I only have two tests done, but those two tests really have persuaded me to keep Hell banned. I used MF-H Hell (Hasbro Version) Horuseus 90 RF.

Set Up

Part Breakdown for MF-H Hell Horuseus 90 RF

Part Breakdown for MF-H Libra GB145 RSF

Part Breakdown for MF-H Libra 230 RS

------------------------------The Tests------------------------------

MF-H Hell Horuseus 90 RF vs MF-H Libra GB145 RSF
MF-H Hell Horuseus 90 RF: 15 (15 KO)
MF-H Libra GB145 RSF: 5 (3 OS, 2 KO)
MF-H Hell Horuseus 90 RF Win Percentage: 75%
Detailed Results
The times Libra Outspun Hell were due to many wall saves. The KO's were also from wall saves, except Hell was knocked out. In conclusion Hell completely destroyed Libra in this set.

MF-H Hell Horuseus 90 RF vs MF-H Libra 230 RS
MF-H Hell Horuseus 90 RF: 8 (8 KO)
MF-H Libra 230 RS: 12 (11 OS, 1 KO)
MF-H Hell Horuseus 90 RF Win Percentage: 40%
Detailed Results
This match was actually really ridiculous. Even when Hell didn't KO Libra it was still able to bang it around a lot. Libra's KO appeared to be a bit of luck so if you were to test this don't count on it happening much, unless something really weird occurs. I still think Hell was quite powerful in these tests, honestly imagine if it would have been on a 145 track against 230. Pretty sure Hell would have destroyed it considering it got such a high win rate on 90.

So there were the two tests I did. I personally think Hell is still to strong to bring into Limited Format, but that is my opinion.
(Jun. 26, 2015  11:06 PM)The Real Libra Wrote: After 20 rounds of MF2-F Flame Aquario 145ES V.S MF2-H Hell Leone 230CS, Flame one 15 rounds while Hell only one 5. I still say Hell should be unbanned in hopes of better combos.

Have some further testing:

Spoiler for Equipment (Click to View)

Spoiler for Round 1 Parts (Click to View)

Flame Ionis 145 ES: 16
(2KO, 14SO) 80%

Hell Kerbecs 230 CS: 4
(4SO) 20%
Draws: 2 (1KO, 1SO)
Hell's only wins were from downward angled sliding shoots to offbalance Flame early and fatally. It was otherwise completely incapable of winning this matchup.

Spoiler for Round 2 Parts (Click to View)

Flame Ionis 145 ES: 3
(1KO, 2SO) 15%

Hell Kerbecs 230 CS: 17
(7KO, 10SO) 85%
Draws: 0
A quick change of parts totally changed the outcome, with fatal destabalization now Flame's only means of winning besides one random KO that could easily have been a draw had it not hit a wall.

Spoiler for Round 3 Parts (Click to View)

Flame Ionis 145 ES: 7
(7SO) 35%

Hell Kerbecs 230 CS: 13
(1KO, 12SO) 65%
Draws: 2 (2SO)
Which bey destabilized which was by far the most important factor here, with launch order making no obvious difference. Many of Hell's wins came from the simple fact that higher beys can roll on the floor a tiny bit longer so there wasn't nearly as much in it as the results imply.

Spoiler for Round 3 Parts (Click to View)

Flame Ionis 145 ES: 15
(1KO, 14SO) 75%

Hell Kerbecs 230 CS: 5
(5SO) 25%
Draws: 2 (2SO)
Essentially the same as the last matchup, only with the tiniest loss in stamina causing hell to lose far more often.

The winner of any matchup between these combos is clearly determined more by the condition of parts than the combos themselves but I feel as though it's the smooth shape and small contact points of Flame that allow it to be as effective as it is, destablizing without taking any solid hits.
Those tests were quite interesting. Honestly I don't know how your Hell combo didn't completely destroy the Flame 145 ES combo. Hopefully my string launcher will come in from the Credits Campaign so I can try the match up myself but it just seems really odd. Given Hell's height and weight it honestly should have won despite how worn the parts were, but I don't know. Like I said when my Launcher comes in I can try that matchup and some more match ups with Hell.
That first testing doesn't reflect on what you got for the other ones. Pretty weird m8.

It's also no surprise that Hell had won against Flame. 230CS should generally be out-spinning MTSC, so it really had nothing to do with Hell unless your relying solely on it's recoil for KO's.
It is clear that Hell has some faults, But I still don't think it should be allowed in limited.
(Jul. 29, 2015  4:43 PM)Mitsu Wrote: That first testing doesn't reflect on what you got for the other ones. Pretty weird m8.
It's also no surprise that Hell had won against Flame. 230CS should generally be out-spinning MTSC, so it really had nothing to do with Hell unless your relying solely on it's recoil for KO's.

I was testing this because it was a matchup some had been getting weird results with and I believe I've shown that, despite what you might expect, 230CS isn't always going to have the advantage. Flame works as a destablizer and, depending on the quality of the tips, this can sometimes give it enough of an upper hand to dominate.
Some CSs will have too much rubber or too little of a point to maintain stamina at an andle and some ESs won't have as much balance as others.

Yes, the 230CS combo is generally better but there's more to this matchup than just that and you can hopefully now see why there have been discordant results.
How is Hell doing so bad against Libra for you guys? In an attack setup like Hell ____ W145R2F, I'm able to take out a Libra 230RS consistently.

Also, what's the reasoning behind someone using Hell 230CS in a competitive tournament?
(Jul. 29, 2015  7:37 PM)LMAO Wrote: How is Hell doing so bad against Libra for you guys? In an attack setup like Hell ____ W145R2F, I'm able to take out a Libra 230RS consistently.

Also, what's the reasoning behind someone using Hell 230CS in a competitive tournament?

Well that's because you're using it on a 145-height Track. Unless you know your opponent is going to use 230 W145R2F on Hell probably won't be as effective as something like 90/100/LW105/CH120 that lowers it a bit to take advantage of its shape. It's kind of like using CH120 on DK Zirago, although it works would you expect to face it in a tournament setting instead of 85 or 90 (unless your opponent knows what combo you will use)?

Back in the day before 4D Hell 230CS was a combo that could beat most other combos (I read somewhere that it was 90% but don't quote me on that) due to being a particularly hard to hit HTDC thanks to Hell's raised shape, and outward weight distribution gave it surprisingly good Stamina as well.
But, as a competitive set-up I doubt there is much of a difference of using either something on a 145 track or something like a 90 track, against other limited combinations? You'll pretty much never know lol (unless of course your opponent uses 230 a lot).

Oh, I see, but won't that be a problem since there are things like Jade and Omega (or even Lightning) that can counter it if used correctly (on a 145 spin track)? I should really do some tests, and see how it does with other competitive limited combinations.