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+---- Thread: [LTD] The Case For Unbanning Hell (/Thread-LTD-The-Case-For-Unbanning-Hell)
[LTD] The Case For Unbanning Hell - Poseidon - Aug. 09, 2014
(Aug. 09, 2014 6:02 PM)Poseidon Wrote: Can't say I'm not nearly an expert in MFB after my hiatus, but it does look pretty similar to the meta game I used to play in. One thing that I do find questionable is the banning of Hell. In the old metagame, Hell was pretty damn dominate, but that was almost every time with BD145. Yes Hell is heavy and has a large diameter yet I still feel that it wouldn't completely dominate the limited tier. Basalt? Yes definitely, I remember I was one of the people who wanted banned immediately, since that was at one point literally the only thing used in MFB. Not Hell as much, I wouldn't say. Libra weighs more than hell as well but that isn't banned, although I do see it as being potentially banned on the list. I just feel as though it is a part that could potentially be unbanned with some testing. I'd do it myself, but I'd have to buy a few its and pieces first.So after doing a bit of testing I support the unbanning of Hell more than ever. The reason for its banning is as follows:
'Very heavy compared to the rest of the metagame..."
Yes, this statement is true, most other parts seen in limited are not as heavy as Hell. However there are exceptions to this rule, being Jade and Libra which weigh roughly equal to and more than hell respectively. However, there is still a worry that should hell return its weight combined with it's effectiveness in attack, defence and stamina would dominate the metagame. Very early testing's although, have shown that Hell is may not be as dominate as some may fear.
Standard procedure
Stamina
Burn Aquario 145WD VS Hell Keberous 145WD
Burn 8/20 45% (3KO, 5OS)
Hell 12/20 55% (10KO, 2OS)
Earth Aquario 145WD VS Hell Keberous 145WD
Earth 12/20 All OS
Hell 8/20 All KO
What I found was that Hell often won if it made contact early on, this was especially the case against Earth. Hell utilises it's attack, by itself in a stamina combo combining its smash capability and its circular shape.
Echizen's testing
Testing;
Hell LW160WD vs. Burn W145WD
Burn: 12(11 KO, 1OS)
Hell: 8(6KO, 2OS)
Attack
Hell Keberous 85RF VS Libra 230CS
Libra 12/20 10OS 2 KO
Hell 8/20 All KO
Very similar principle. Hell often won very early on if they did.
Defence: Echizen testing, thanks
MF-H Hell Kerbecs GB145RSF Vs. Omega Orion 85R2F
Hell: 4(All OS)
Omega: 16(All KO)
Ties: 1
Here's some other people testings, it's all appreciated
Spoiler (Click to View)
RE: [LTD] The Case For Unbanning Hell - Leone19 - Aug. 09, 2014
Since I'll be offline for the next week, I'd love to see someone do tests with Hell 230 CS, since that's the main reason stated that Hell had to be banned.
RE: [LTD] The Case For Unbanning Hell - Poseidon - Aug. 09, 2014
As a defence combination?
RE: [LTD] The Case For Unbanning Hell - Leone19 - Aug. 09, 2014
(Aug. 09, 2014 8:22 PM)Poseidon Wrote: As a defence combination?
Yeah, that's mostly the reason that it was said it had to be banned.
RE: [LTD] The Case For Unbanning Hell - Wombat - Aug. 09, 2014
I think the problem combo was Hell 230CS, so if you could test against that it would be great. Hell F230CS might also be bad/worse than normal 230 but maybe not. I'm against unbanning it for now but if people can show that it's not that much of a threat that can change.
Side Note: I think that before we go about unbanning more parts, we should consider bringing Gravity back first.
RE: [LTD] The Case For Unbanning Hell - Poseidon - Aug. 09, 2014
Right so Echizen did some more defence testing for me, its up now. Definitely doesn't look dominate ATM.
I asked him to try out 230 CS now.
RE: [LTD] The Case For Unbanning Hell - 6 God - Aug. 09, 2014
MF-H Hell Kerbecs 230CS Vs. MF-H Omega Orion
Hell: 11(All OS)
Omega: 9(All KO)
Ties: 0
MF-H Hell Kerbecs 230CS Vs. Burn Cancer W145WD
Hell: 17(4KO, 13OS
Burn: 3(All KO)
Ties: 1
MF-H Hell Kerbecs 230CS Vs. Scythe Pegasis 2 W145WD
Hell: 0
Scythe: 10(All OS)
Ties: 2
Note: This was with a used AA3 Scythe.
RE: [LTD] The Case For Unbanning Hell - Poseidon - Aug. 09, 2014
Did you only do the 10 tests with scythe, not that it really matters since there a pretty clear winner.
RE: [LTD] The Case For Unbanning Hell - 6 God - Aug. 09, 2014
Yeah only 10, I think 20 is only encorced unless there's not a completely clear outcome.
RE: [LTD] The Case For Unbanning Hell - Poseidon - Aug. 09, 2014
Yeah, that's cool.
From all these tests, it just looks like Hell is balancing the meta game. It's not particularly overpowering, not to much anyway. IMO burn is overrated compared to the metal wheels that are out there. I'll do some tests with eagle in the morning, if I have time.
RE: [LTD] The Case For Unbanning Hell - 6 God - Aug. 09, 2014
Yeah, Omega and Lightning are super powerful parts. Hell just seems like another Scythe, so far.
RE: [LTD] The Case For Unbanning Hell - Poseidon - Aug. 09, 2014
Ill do tests with Lightning since it's the only viable attack piece I really have now haha
Barring hopefully Hell.
RE: [LTD] The Case For Unbanning Hell - Mitsu - Aug. 09, 2014
Though I'd just do my share contributing to this thread, yo:
Notes:
- Hell setup launched first every 20 battles.
- Conditions of pieces will be specified.
- The opposing variations were banked.
- I didn't really bother doing any tests against stamina and more attack, as the prime reason why Hell was given a ban was because of its weight, so it'd be best to see if attack variations would be able to actually give it a knockout.
Tests utilizing MF-L Hell Cancer 125W2D: (Click to View)
Hell Setup's number of OS'S: 20/160 battles came out being OS'S.
Hell Setup's number of KO'S: 12/160 battles came out being KO'S.
Hell Setup's overall win percentage: Roughly around 26%.
Woah, Hell got creamed by attack variations..
Although seriously, I should get some Scythe_CH120RF tests up soon, though.
Echizen Wrote:Hell just seems like another Scythe, so far.
Couldn't have said it better, bud.
EDIT: And of course, feel free to add these to the OP, Poseidon.
RE: [LTD] The Case For Unbanning Hell - UltimateOrion - Aug. 09, 2014
When i get home i will get Hell testing posted.
RE: [LTD] The Case For Unbanning Hell - The Supreme One - Aug. 09, 2014
Wow, loving the results from testing so far! Hell is obviously good, but still loses to most attack combos, so it's definitely not unbeatable. I can do some testing tonight or tomorrow. Aside from 230 CS, are there any other combinations that should be tested more?
RE: [LTD] The Case For Unbanning Hell - DRAGON KING - Aug. 10, 2014
Hell 85RF testing please.
I hope we don't get another Omega situation, where it's unbanned just to counter OP parts like Scythe...
RE: [LTD] The Case For Unbanning Hell - Mitsu - Aug. 10, 2014
(Aug. 10, 2014 1:10 AM)DRANZER KING Wrote: Hell 85RF testing please.
I'd most definitely be willing to do some. Do you have any specific requests?
RE: [LTD] The Case For Unbanning Hell - DRAGON KING - Aug. 10, 2014
The usual defence customs. Libra, earth and maybe bakushin?
RE: [LTD] The Case For Unbanning Hell - Wombat - Aug. 10, 2014
I did some tests and what I've gotten only reinforces my opinion that Hell should stay banned.
MF-L Hell Kerbecs 230CS vs. MF-H Screw Uranus CH145RF
Kerbecs: 15 wins (14 OS, 1 KO)
Uranus: 5 wins (all KO)
Kerbecs win rate: 75%
MF-L Hell Kerbecs 230CS vs. MF-L Lightning L-Drago TR145LRF
Kerbecs: 17 wins (14 OS, 3 KO)
L-Drago: 3 wins (all KO)
Kerbecs win rate: 85%
Hell actually has a carp ton of Smash Attack; it would only hop a little and Lighting would get smashed down and scrape pretty badly.
MF-L Hell Kerbecs 230CS vs. MF-H Cosmic Unicorno TH195R2F
Kerbecs: 11 wins (10 OS, 1 KO)
Unicorno: 9 wins (8 KO, 1 OS)
1 tie redone
Kerbecs win rate: 55%
195 was chosen because it was the optimal height where Cosmic's slopes would start below Hell and end above it for effective Upper Smash Attack. The OS came from when Cosmic beat it up so much it couldn't keep its balance.
Someone else test Hell F230GCF, I'll be away for a while and while I didn't finish the test I started it was kicking Earth B
's tail pretty bad.
RE: [LTD] The Case For Unbanning Hell - 6 God - Aug. 10, 2014
Could you try it with an Omega? That's the deadliest attacker, IMO.
RE: [LTD] The Case For Unbanning Hell - Wombat - Aug. 10, 2014
(Aug. 10, 2014 4:58 AM)Echizen Wrote: Could you try it with an Omega? That's the deadliest attacker, IMO.
No Omega and no Scythe, sorry.
But I doubt Omega could do much to Hell 230CS IRL seeing as most people run 85/90 on Omega and it's up against literally one of the tallest combos in the game. CH145 might do decently, but I wouldn't expect any more than what Screw got since Screw was designed specifically to hit upwards.
RE: [LTD] The Case For Unbanning Hell - Poseidon - Aug. 10, 2014
I've already done Hell 85RF btw, DRANZERKING
RE: [LTD] The Case For Unbanning Hell - DRAGON KING - Aug. 10, 2014
Why'd you test against 230CS XD. 230 is pretty much a counter to low tracks ... Thanks for the effort anyways !
RE: [LTD] The Case For Unbanning Hell - Poseidon - Aug. 10, 2014
I was just trying to get some comparative results.
I'll do some with against say libra GB145CS?
RE: [LTD] The Case For Unbanning Hell - DRAGON KING - Aug. 10, 2014
Libra GB145/R145/90/85RSF/RB or CS if you don't have the other is fine
And if someone has time , can they test MF-L Hell Kerbecs 85MF?