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[LTD] R145 Discussion

Jan. 04, 2014  12:07 PM
 
::[LTD] R145 Discussion::

Okay, we all know R145 is a good track for 3-sided attack wheels (you can look through just about any thread in this subforum and find results that show that), and I think we've all come to the conclusion after facing down MF-H Bakushin Leone 90RSF that it's not so great at attacking by itself. If you try it out just by putting it on a ZG wheel and doing solo spins with it in either orientation and comparing it to GB145, it also becomes obvious it can be used to either improve or worsen the imbalance of Zero G wheels (or for the better balanced ones, increase the imbalance more or less compared to GB145), meaning for adding weight while retaining stamina it is usually superior to GB145, (something I'll do solo spins to show if I ever sort out my trouble getting consistent times for more than 3-4 trials in a row).
We've also seen from testing in other topics that for attacking low opponents, it is inferior to H145 (which also works better on phoenic by covering up more recoily contact points than R145), unless your metal wheel itself can do this. This is all quite obvious and consistent with past findings and there's not much else to look into with it for attack at this point aside from testing on specific wheels. As such it's worth asking "th!nk, why are you making a thread for it, we don't need it, we're done, do something more useful."

Well, there's one aspect that I think we've overlooked: Defense. While R145 is the heaviest viable defense track (A230 is heavier as are a few of the 4D bottoms even accounting for tip weight), meaning it is without any real doubt going to perform better against anything that doesn't make contact with it, it is regularly accused of having excessive recoil. I disagree. Every case I've seen of people saying R145 increased recoil in this subforum seems to be due to it exposing a contact point on the wheels underside that caused that recoil. "But th!nk", you may say, "we have GB145 and that's quite round surely it is better!" Well, not really. GB145 is an oval, and that means its widest axis still provides leverage for opponents, quite a bit of it, it seems. Futhermore, in addition to being lighter than R145, whereas R145 can flex upward slightly when hit in that direction, GB145 does not, which means in the rare occasion they're against an attacker that can hit them upwards from below, R145 is much better suited to taking the hit, whereas GB145 is uh, pretty awful at it from what I saw today.
Lastly, R145 also covers more of the underside of the metal wheel, which means it will take more hits for the MW than GB145, and despite its shape, in my testing at least this seems to be beneficial.

To test this, I used a very specific matchup, MF-H Leone 85LRF vs MF-H Earth Aquario GB145/R145CS.
Leone is chosen because its contact points are very low and have a lot of horizontal smash around the height that GB145 and R145 protrude at. It also doesn't make as much MW contact as most other things I tried that had the power to do anything to CS in this setup. LRF is used because it was the most reliably aggressive rubber flat variant I could find and honestly I kinda like it on Right Spin beys. CS is chosen because RSF wrecks everything really so you'd not see a big difference, and it's also decently tall.

The results were shocking even to me, and I'll talk about that afterwards:


MF-H Earth Aquario GB145 CS vs MF-H Leone 85LRF
Standard Testing Conditions, one L/R launcher, tips cleaned every round, stadium cleaned thoroughly before round 1.
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Earth GB145: 10/20 = 50% (2KO, 8OS)
Leone: 10/20 = 50% (All KO)


MF-H Earth Aquario R145CS vs MF-H Leone 85LRF
Standard Testing Conditions, everything same as above (yes, cleaned the stadium again just in case).
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Earth R145: 17/20 = 85% (2KO, 15OS)
Leone: 3/20 = 15% (All KO)

Comparison of Results: R145: 85%, GB145: 50%

As you can see, R145 scored an extra 35% compared to GB145. This strikes even me as excessive, so I have some thoughts on how it happened:

First off, I have heard rumors that some R145's are softer or harder than others. Mine may be particularly flexible, helping absorb hits better.

One thing I did notice is that Earth had much less stamina in the R145 battles, more than I'd expect R145 itself to cause. It's possible that hits to R145 result in rotational recoil rather than regular recoil, reducing spin in exchange for not moving as much, and what I observed in the trials did suggest that was occurring - Earth R145 would sometimes "pause" from hits but not really move anywhere.

While Leone was the most suitable wheel I could find, from the hits I do think it was getting under the tracks, and as explained in the intro, this gives R145 a huge advantage it might not normally have. Still though, side-on hits to the track moved R145 noticeably less in all but a couple of occasions.

Finally, Leone DID score a couple of very hard hits on Earth R145, but both resulted in wall saves. I doubt it, but perhaps it isn't making good side-on contact most of the time or whatever. I don't think there's anything else that could make side-on contact with the track without making contact with the metal wheel every time (even Leone 90 would result in much more metal on metal contact), but still, these did make me pause for thought.

Basically, I'd appreciate it if someone else could reproduce these exact matchups to check my tests. Hopefully someone actually has Leone because I really cannot find a viable substitute, and I've looked at basically everything so don't quiz me on whether each other wheel individually would be an adequate substitute, the answer is basically always going to be "No, but if you want to test it go ahead".
EDIT: If you don't have Leone, Bahamdia on 85RF/R2F/LRF with a small, flat Crystal Wheel such as Dark Knight would probably suffice. Harder to tell if you're hitting GB145 or making crystal wheel contact but it should hit the track plenty.

To Do List for Me, Feel Free To Help Out
Comparatives with GB145 against 145 height attack
Comparatives with GB145 against taller attack types - maybe Cosmic on the off chance its force smash could affect R145 worse????
Solo Spin comparatives with ZG wheels in both orientations with comparisons to GB145.
Upload photos of post-test wear on GB145 to show it does get hit pretty hard.
Jan. 04, 2014  12:42 PM
 
Ah, you beat me to it. Anyway, I should be able to help do tests. Maybe later today?

Thanks for taking the time to write this up.
Jan. 04, 2014  12:48 PM
 
I'd been meaning to get around to testing this for a couple of days haha, ever since I played around with a bunch of tracks in flame ___ RS against ltsc to gauge how hard they each hit and noticed R145 did very little but didn't seem anywhere near as phased by contact as I had expected (SW145 was the most effective in those trials however it has too much recoil against anything with actual defense as it turns out). It took me a while to find an attack type that made relatively consistent track contact and was actually effective.

I'd definitely appreciate you testing it, as I said these results seem a little extreme. You should take a shot against it with something force smash-y if you can, that'd be neat too, but you know, no pressure or anything.

Oh, I also found an alternate attack setup capable of making good track contact, which was Dark Knight Bahamdia 85LRF. Bahamdia with any small, flat crystal wheel on 85RF/R2F/LRF should do, but I would like to see my exact tests reproduced if possible. I say this at the risk of giving away the fact (dark knight) bahamdia is pretty great IMO before I am able to test to make the Bahamdia Discussion thread so u no if you guys want to leave that for me it'd be real cool but if you're already working on a good one for it then I mean go for it and maybe pm me so I can spend my time on something else or helpin u out etc
Jan. 04, 2014  2:44 PM
 
Fake tests (Click to View)
WBO Committee: It was recently brought to our attention that all tests by Crescent in this topic are fabricated. We urge you to forget their results and that someone trustworthy conduct the actual tests for the sake of this metagame.
Jan. 05, 2014  3:21 AM
 
Some comparative testing from Theif Phoenic thread:

MSF-H Theif Phoenic H145R2F vs. Earth Sag II GB145RSF
Phoenic: 13 wins (0 OS, 13 KO)
Earth GB145: 7 wins (7 OS, 0 KO)
Phoenic win%: 65%

For Th!nk MSF-H Theif Phoenic H145R2F vs. Earth Sag II R145RSF
Phoenic: 9 wins (0 OS, 9 KO)
Earth R145: 11 wins (10 OS, 1 KO)
Phoenic win%: 45%
Jan. 05, 2014  7:52 AM
 
Wow, that's honestly kinda scary, just hope that's only because R145 just puts it past the amount of weight Phoenic can move easily or something haha, otherwise I'm gonna feel kinda bad for bringing this to light.
Jan. 05, 2014  8:38 AM
 
I figured I'd do some tests. Here they are with GB145 first:

Earth Aquila GB145CS vs. Dark Knight Bahamdia 85R2F (Crystal Up Mode)
Earth: 9 wins (3 KO, 6 OS)
Dark Knight: 11 wins (All KO)
Earth Aquila GB145 win percentage: 45%

Now with R145:

Earth Aquila R145CS vs. Dark Knight Bahamdia 85R2F (Crystal Up Mode)
Earth: 11 wins (5 KO, 6 OS)
Dark Knight: 9 wins (All KO)
Earth Aquila R145 win percentage: 55%

I really like R145 for defense now! I never have it a big chance since in my mind I always though of it being one of the most recoil prone tracks in MFB.

I took some post wear pictures but there wasnt much of a difference really so I figured I wouldn't post them until I did excessive testing with this same matchup.
Jan. 05, 2014  8:48 AM
 
Oh right I have to check mine to see if the wear was visible, forgot to do that when reviewing the photos I took last night as the main thing I was photographing didn't come out well.

But yeah, three people testing the track's recoil specifically and two testing the comparative performance when the track isn't being hit, I think that's pretty strong evidence for R145 going on the Defense section of the CC list haha.

Thanks for your tests, everybody. Smile
Jan. 05, 2014  10:15 AM
 
Okay so here's an example of R145 improving balance of a ZG wheel more than GB145 (and in this case it's even slightly better than AD145). Please bear in mind that the best orientation of R145 and whether it is slightly better than AD145 or not (in the wheels and modes I've tried (Dragooon, Revizer, Saramanda), one orientation is always better than GB145 by a small margin) can differ between wheels and the mode they're in (crystal or chrome up). There may even be wheels that are well balanced enough that GB145 is fine, but I kinda doubt it.

I'm only including this one set as this was the only set of results I had that I actually got sufficiently consistent results with (I have trouble getting consistent times with solo spins).
That said, this is a fairly obvious thing, while I was surprised that the best orientation of R145 changed in some cases depending on whether crystal or chrome up was used, I suspect that's just because of how close/far the imbalance in the MW is from R145's weight (if the lighter part of the MW is directly over a wing it helps balance it, but further up having two wings on the lighter half of the bey helps more - someone who knows physics want to look into that/explain or w/e?)

It probably helps that GB145's balls might be being affected by the imbalance of the wheel lategame, causing them to sit at different distances from the centre and therefore exaggerate imbalance further and make toppling more likely, which could explain some of the inconsistency I experienced, as a lot of the time this occurred when GB145 span for much longer without losing balance at low RPM. This didn't occur with Saramanda, however, and it was less common than GB145 toppling early in general (and even when it did occur, it still only edged out R145 by a small margin).

Setup was Samurai Saramanda ____WD (Crystal Up), WD is a little worn, tracks were changed after each spin to compensate for/show any effects of wear, done in the order GB145, R145 under hole, R145 under pole, AD145 and then repeating for 3 sets. Saramanda has atrocious balance in Crystal Up mode FWIW (it's actually a little better in Chrome Up). I used a string launcher, the string has lost length over time however so it's not significantly stronger than an LL2. Still, it works.

R145 under hole means R145 is positioned with a wing directly under the hole in the Chrome Wheel. R145 Under Pole is the opposite (two wings either side of chrome wheel hole, one wing under where its pole is).

AD145: Avg from 3 Spins: 55.13s (Click to View)
GB145: Avg from 3 Spins: 49.93s (Click to View)
R145 Under Hole: Avg from 3 Spins: 56.53s (Click to View)
R145 Under Pole: Avg from 3 Spins: 49.17s (Click to View)
Of course this isn't that important unless we have a workable chrome wheel defense combo as imbalance in attack can be useful, but it's something worth noting anyhow.

EDIT: Here's a close up of my GB145's underside. This thing is definitely taking hits.
Jan. 05, 2014  2:59 PM
 
Going through these tests has also made me realize just how great the shape of the earth wheel is. A big part of the results vs Earth was whether Phoenic could line up a direct hit or not. If it wasn't centered it would just skim off it and that played some into the vast difference between the two defenders.
The movement of the RSF also helped with this effect. That is also a reason I still prefer RSF over RS because while RS may have more traction its a sitting duck.
But R145 is a great track as it allows the bey to bounce back with an aggressive hit keeping it in the stadium as well.
Jan. 05, 2014  3:22 PM
 
Fake tests (Click to View)
WBO Committee: It was recently brought to our attention that all tests by Crescent in this topic are fabricated. We urge you to forget their results and that someone trustworthy conduct the actual tests for the sake of this metagame.
Jan. 05, 2014  3:31 PM
 
Do it again with GB145 instead of R145 maybe, 90 has a major height advantage anyway so I doubt GB145 is going to do significantly better.
Jan. 05, 2014  4:26 PM
 
Fake tests (Click to View)
WBO Committee: It was recently brought to our attention that all tests by Crescent in this topic are fabricated. We urge you to forget their results and that someone trustworthy conduct the actual tests for the sake of this metagame.
Jan. 05, 2014  4:33 PM
 
Hm, would've expected Bakushin to do better there. Still, saying that R145 has recoil against LTDC... I mean it shouldn't if it didn't have as much as GB145 did against attack, though there are KO's there showing that. Will look into it myself tomorrow, though I don't have two similar condition RSF's.
Jan. 05, 2014  4:37 PM
 
Oh by the way, my R145 is hard. It's not really that flexible. I did think Bakushin would get more, but I guess not. I was thinking of trying out Scythe R145. Do you think it'll do good?
Jan. 05, 2014  4:42 PM
 
So I'll have some tests done by the end of the day for Defense test comparisons.
Jan. 05, 2014  7:07 PM
 
(Jan. 05, 2014  4:37 PM)" L Wrote: Oh by the way, my R145 is hard. It's not really that flexible. I did think Bakushin would get more, but I guess not. I was thinking of trying out Scythe R145. Do you think it'll do good?
R145s generally are hard but they have a bit of vertical flexibility and remember beyblades hit much harder than you can probably bend stuff etc, tiny window of impact at high rpm etc etc.

Scythe needs looking into for defense anyhow, though GB145 would capitalise on its stamina better.
Jan. 05, 2014  7:19 PM
 
So here are my tests for the comparison:
MF-H Earth Aquario GB145RSF vs Gravity Perseus(Atk. Ver, Left Spin]R145R2F
Alternating launches.
Earth wins: 2/20(all OS)
Perseus wins: 18/20(all KO)
Earth Win Percentage: 10%
Man, Gravity was kicking around GB145 like it was a soccer ball being kicked around by Hulk. No match at all.

MF-H Earth Aquario R145RSF vs Gravity Perseus(Atk Ver, Left Spin)R145R2F
Alternating launches.
Earth wins: 0/20
Perseus wins: 20/20(all OS)
Earth Win Percentage: 0%
Honestly, R145 is SO much better than GB145 for Defense. It would only get kicked around in the center. Like in the anime, no? So I'm going to test Beat against both and Wyvang.
Jan. 05, 2014  7:41 PM
 
If R145 is getting outspun by gravity in left 100% of the time though it doesn't matter if it's not getting knocked out, but that seems extremely odd to me, how worn is your RSF? I've got another R145 on the way but if someone else could reproduce those tests I'd appreciate it, as that's really weird to me...
Jan. 05, 2014  7:51 PM
 
Fake tests (Click to View)
WBO Committee: It was recently brought to our attention that all tests by Crescent in this topic are fabricated. We urge you to forget their results and that someone trustworthy conduct the actual tests for the sake of this metagame.
Jan. 05, 2014  8:03 PM
 
Eh, 5% is a tiny margin anyway (though maybe given how left spin attack beys work R145's putting more weight on one half of the beyblade makes it more susceptible?), but that more closely mirrors what I've seen with RSF vs R2F (left) anyhow. Shining God MS, you really need to look at your RSF I think, as you mentioned RB having more stamina than it IIRC, which everyone else seems to disagree with.
Jan. 06, 2014  10:56 PM
 
OK, my thoughts on this (Please note that I have done only small amounts of testing on this subject. Not much, but a few tidbits here and there).

I can absolutely confirm the fact that R145's come in different flexibilities. I've seen plenty of different R145 tracks, all with different densities of rubber.

The thing is, like the rubber on Meteo, it seems to be mostly determined by brand. Hasbro R145's are usually more flexible/soft than Takara R145's. I have a Takara track, and my brother has a Hasbro.

From my testing, R145 has quite horrendous recoil, both linear and rotational. I wouldn't expect it to take a hit from a well placed LTAC, much less actually do better than GB145, and I certainly wouldn't expect it to take down an LTDC.

Also, against left-spin, R145 is usually absolutely horrible. It's shape/material causes the combination using it to stop almost instantly when leaning (not to mention that it actually protrudes lower/farther than GB145, causing it to make contact with the stadium sooner).

Although I find R145 to have terrible recoil against most things, mine is really very, very stiff compared to most people's (and actually relatively new. Haven't used it very much against anything low enough to hit it). The thing that concerns me is its poor performance against opposite-spin. At the moment, the Attack meta is mostly focused around Lightning and Gravity if I'm not mistaken, and both are perfectly capable of consistently OSing an R145-based Defender.

However, I must say that, at a mid-height, it's quite impressive in terms of pure Defense for the most part. It's weight is nothing to laugh about.

Ingulit did a thread with similar testing a while back in the Standard forum. It's not much, and the testing is oriented a little differently, but he has a bit of the same idea, and it might help the discussion a little. They definitely show that R145 works well for Defense in general if you ask me: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-MF-H-Win...-Retesting
Jan. 06, 2014  11:15 PM
 
For what it's worth, my R145 is Takara. Against left spin you can still outspin your opponent if they have poor enough stamina, but I didn't get time to test that today with the whole Scythe thing going on. I've really not had much trouble with it in the past though so yeah.
Jan. 10, 2014  7:44 AM
 
I just want to re-confirm that there are definitely differences between R145's in terms of flexibility. Got my SonoKong one today and it is really soft/bendy. I'll try to do a comparative or two in the next couple of days (want to finish my batch chrome wheel testing today).
Mar. 04, 2014  5:29 PM
 
Just posting to say I gave MF-H Lightning L Drago 85RF vs MF-H Libra R145RB a shot yesterday, with my soft R145, and Libra was consistently outspinning LLD, though I only did a few rounds. Dunno what is up with reports of the opposite being true as it's not something I saw back in the day with my hard rubber one either. Confused Will look into getting some actual testing on it soonish but yeah, LLD is being outspun by a big margin.