[LTD] Libra Discussion

Because of just that set of tests, haha? BGrin will meet be illegal, it can be KO'd so easily.
(Jul. 13, 2014  2:05 AM)Tr! Wrote: Because of just that set of tests, haha? B:D will meet be illegal, it can be KO'd so easily.

B:D is pretty damn OP for Stamina.
It probably should be banned TBH.
There's probably more ways to defeat it than there is to lose against it, haha. Even semi aggressive Defesne types can easily KO it.
Meh. Libra B:D really is one of the best stamina set-ups it has. The wheel, like Tr! said, can still be easily KO'd and its endurance also depends on the mold. I tested using my newer, better B:D. There's nothing really overpowered about Libra at this point.
I guess you guys are right.
Heh, he's no Wolborg MS.
(Jul. 13, 2014  1:53 AM)The Supreme One Wrote: Was going to make a thread for Libra BGrin until I remembered this discussion existed. This is probably my favorite Libra combination and one of my preferred stamina combos for Limited.

Did a few rounds against Earth Cancer AD145 WD:

Earth Cancer AD145 WD vs Libra BGrin
Earth wins: 3/10 (30% win rate)
Libra wins: 7/10 (70% win rate)

I actually remember seeing this at one point in April from Pockyx3, if I could recall.

As I don't have access to my B;D right now (since a user from this forum does presently have it), I'd definitely be sure to get some tests done next Sunday, since it is the next tournament date in Toronto. I'd be sure to include benchmarks with Scythe_B;D, and on top of that, what similar variations along the lines of being comparable to Libra B;D can do either better or worse, as well.

On the topic of the combo itself, I like the variation, however, this should be really easy to KO, depending on the mold one has. Despite that, I feel like there aren't too many threats towards it as of now (accept possibly Scythe?), though I presently can't really guarantee anything myself, since there aren't any bigger, possibly more valuable tests out there.

Unsmith
It was recently brought to our attention that all tests by Crescent in this topic are fabricated. We urge you to forget their results and that someone trustworthy conduct the actual tests for the sake of this metagame.
There was some discussion recently about whether Libra should be on the Limited tier list for Stamina. Here's my answer to that:

Attack Stadium
Launcher Grip + BeyLauncher
Parts swapped halfway
WD's mint
Earth Mold 2
Earth always shot first

Libra (Mold 3) W145WD vs. Earth Cygnus W145WD
Libra W145WD: 0 wins
Earth Cygnus W145WD: 10 wins
Libra win percentage: 0%

Libra (Mold 3) 85WD vs. Earth Cygnus 85WD
Libra 85WD: 0 wins
Earth Cygnus 85WD: 10 wins
Libra win percentage: 0%

Libra (Mold 3) 230WD vs. Earth Cygnus 230WD
Libra 230WD: 0 wins
Earth Cygnus 230WD: 10 wins
Libra win percentage: 0%

Libra (Mold 1) W145WD vs. Earth Cygnus W145WD
Libra W145WD: 0 wins
Earth Cygnus W145WD: 10 wins
Libra win percentage: 0%

Libra (Mold 1) 85WD vs. Earth Cygnus 85WD
Libra 85WD: 0 wins
Earth Cygnus 85WD: 10 wins
Libra win percentage: 0%

Libra (Mold 1) 230WD vs. Earth Cygnus 230WD
Libra 230WD: 0 wins
Earth Cygnus 230WD: 10 wins
Libra win percentage: 0%
1 draw

No contest so far. Now, here's where I got confused:

Libra (Mold 1) W145WD vs. Duo Cancer W145WD
Libra W145WD: 8 wins (2KO)
Duo Cancer W145WD: 2 wins
Libra win percentage: 80%

I was baffled by this because I knew that Duo could defeat Earth. My results were the exact same as TheBlackDragon's. So, I decided to do some quick tests with Duo vs. Earth:

Earth Cygnus W145WD vs. Duo Cancer W145WD
Earth Cygnus W145WD: 5 wins
Duo Cancer W145WD: 1 win ...

And then I realized I was using different Clear Wheels lol. Let's try this again:

Earth Cancer W145WD vs. Duo Cancer W145WD
Earth Cancer W145WD: 0 wins
Duo Cancer W145WD: 5 wins
Duo win percentage: 100%

So the difference was Cygnus. Duo is actually the better Wheel, but Cygnus somehow puts Earth over the top. I think this is what was causing TheBlackDragon's Earth to have some trouble against Libra in the tests I linked to above. At this point, I decided to compare the two molds of Libra that I was using (BB-18 Mold 1, and BB-96 Mold 3) because I didn't think many people had done any direct comparisons between the two, at least recently:

Libra (Mold 1) W145WD vs. Libra (Mold 3) W145WD
Libra (Mold 1) W145WD: 0 wins
Libra (Mold 3) W145WD: 10 wins
Libra (Mold 3) win percentage: 100%

Not even close. Finally, I did a few quick rounds against each mold of Libra with Duo Cygnus instead of Duo Cancer:

Libra (Mold 1) W145WD vs. Duo Cygnus W145WD
Libra W145WD: 0 wins
Duo Cancer W145WD: 2 wins
Libra win percentage: 0%

Libra (Mold 3) W145WD vs. Duo Cygnus W145WD
Libra W145WD: 0 wins
Duo Cancer W145WD: 2 wins
Libra win percentage: 0%

I was convinced at this point that the difference was definitely Cygnus (and also tired lol), so I stopped.

If it isn't clear by now: my answer is, no, I don't think Libra should be on the tier list for Stamina. Wink
Those are way too low ... I mean, we saw how good Libra was when Dark_Mousy used it at the GRAND BATTLE TOURNAMENT 2.
Dang I might need to pick up a Kreis Cygnus then.

If Cygnus is really that much better than Cancer, do you think it should be the only CW listed on the Stamina section for Limited? If they were about equal I wouldn't be asking but from what you posted Cygnus seems to be significantly better than Cancer. Could someone do Cygnus vs. Hades tests please?

EDIT: I'm assuming because of the 5-round and 2-round tests Cygnus won by a large margin, is that correct?
Yeah, those results are a little surprising...
At the very least, I believe Libra B:D should be on the tier list without question. As for other stamina set-ups, that remains to be seen.
(Oct. 25, 2014  5:20 AM)Kai-V Wrote: Those are way too low ... I mean, we saw how good Libra was when Dark_Mousy used it at the GRAND BATTLE TOURNAMENT 2.

Just because it's not on the tier list doesn't mean it's bad. Regarding GBT2, in at least one specific case during that tournament I know Dark_Mousy won because of Libra's recoil versus Arupaeo's Duo, not because of it's Stamina. He also won against my Wyvang combo, which wasn't a contest of Stamina at all. I wouldn't put so much stock into the performance of one person, especially when we don't have all of the details of each match up. I don't know what his match-by-match story was, but I bet you he didn't play a mirror match against a Duo, Earth, etc. and win by OS. That's the key here.

Libra can win in a lot of situations, but all other factors removed (different height match ups, Bottoms, recoil, etc), Libra has worse pure Stamina that many other Wheels. I'm not confident in calling it top tier for Stamina.

(Oct. 25, 2014  5:24 AM)Wombat Wrote: Dang I might need to pick up a Kreis Cygnus then.

If Cygnus is really that much better than Cancer, do you think it should be the only CW listed on the Stamina section for Limited? If they were about equal I wouldn't be asking but from what you posted Cygnus seems to be significantly better than Cancer. Could someone do Cygnus vs. Hades tests please?

EDIT: I'm assuming because of the 5-round and 2-round tests Cygnus won by a large margin, is that correct?

I don't know ... I've always used Cygnus since it was found to be good, but I think we need more testing for we can conclude that it is absolutely the best. Certainly however, I would lean towards it right now, though.

Yeah, it was by a large margin. And I was tired too haha; there was no point in continuing. I had seen enough 10-0 scores by then of Cygnus defeating Libra.

(Oct. 25, 2014  5:24 AM)The Supreme One Wrote: Yeah, those results are a little surprising...
At the very least, I believe Libra B:D should be on the tier list without question. As for other stamina set-ups, that remains to be seen.

To me they aren't that surprising: there is a reason why people never used Libra for Stamina when things like Earth came out years ago. I'm merely re-presenting what was known to the community when Libra and Earth were viable for Standard Format.

Can you try testing Libra B:D versus Earth Cygnus B:D and Duo Cygnus B:D?

Edit: Funny, I'm editing the video for A YEAR: The Month of Rebirth from earlier this year right now and there's a battle where JesseObre defeats Pockyx3's Libra B:D 3-0 using MF Earth Cancer D125EWD. Maybe not totally relevant since they were using different heights, but I thought I'd mention it nevertheless.
I find those a bit surprising, honestly. (I'm not trying to bash those results, I mean, good job testing, Kei).

I personally still believed Libra deserved a spot in Stamina, but those results make me think about it. I'll do some testing this weekend to see what my results are with this.

Nevertheless, cool work, Kei. Tongue_out
I don't have Metal Fury Duo or Cygnus, but I can test it against Earth Cancer/Bull/Kerbecs B:D when I have the chance. Some tests have been done with other Earth combos where Libra B:D had a significant win rate though.
I think Cygnus could do better then Cancer in stamina combination but it could depend on wich wheel you put it on.
I have some stamina combo who does better with Cancer Then Cygnus and some does well with Cygnus then Cancer. I think its a question of the Harmony of parts.
@Kei: Exclellent excellent excellent. Very thorough testing.

It could make sense that Earth and Cygnus might have some crazy synergy. Since Cygnus was released long after Earth was rendered useless, I assume it was never tested. This could be very interesting to look into (especially if it's out-spinning Duo, which outspins both Scythe and Burn conistently).

The next question to ask is whether or not this synergy is unique to Earth, or if Cygnus works wonders on all lightweight wheels (of course, none of that would have been tested either). I've never noticed a clear difference between Cancer and Cygnus on Duo/Phantom, but its possible that Cygnus has something on lightweight Wheels that Cancer doesn't.

This makes things difficult; Kei, could you test Libra vs. Earth Cancer? I'm assuming Libra will come out on top, like it has in most other people's testing as far as I've heard.

Now, this presents a slight problem; if Libra > Earth Cancer on mid-height setups, then shouldn't it be listed, seeing as Earth is listed as well and Libra offers heavier weight? If we say no, then should Earth Cancer be removed?

Oh, and one more question; even though Libra never scored a win against Earth, did it seem better on W145 than it did on 85 or 230?
What about Libra for defense? If I am not mistaken, Libra is currently one of the best defense wheels, right? So far I only see stamina testing though.
(Nov. 22, 2014  9:35 PM)FlyingWaffle Wrote: What about Libra for defense? If I am not mistaken, Libra is currently one of the best defense wheels, right? So far I only see stamina testing though.

Yes, it has already been added to competitive list
(Nov. 22, 2014  11:39 PM)Pegasus of NJ Wrote:
(Nov. 22, 2014  9:35 PM)FlyingWaffle Wrote: What about Libra for defense? If I am not mistaken, Libra is currently one of the best defense wheels, right? So far I only see stamina testing though.

Yes, it has already been added to competitive list

I was thinking more on the side of testing for it. I haven't seen much for it. Unless all of it was posted on a thread that has long been buried.
Tests:

MSF-L Dark Knight Bahamoote 85R2F V. MF-H Libra 90RSF
DKB: 7(All KO)
Libruh: 3(1 KO, 2 OS)
Ties: 0

Bahamoote Win Percentage: 70%

MSF-L Dark Knight Killerken 85R2F V. MF-H Libra 90RSF
DKK: 2(1OS, 1KO)
Libruh: 8(1KO, 7 OS)
Ties: 0

Killerken Win Percentage: 20%

MSF-L Dark Knight Gryph 85R2F V. MF-H Libra 90RSF
DKG: 4(1OS, 3KO)
Libruh: 6(1 KO, 5 OS)
Ties: 0

Gryph Win Percentage: 40%

MSF-L Dark Knight Balro 85R2F V. MF-H Libra 90RSF
Balro: 5(All KO)
Libruh: 5(All OS)
Ties: 1

Balro Win Percentage: 50%



MSF-L Dark Knight Bahamoote 85R2F V. MF-H Libra CH120RSF
DKB: 14(All KO)
Libruh: 6(1 KO, 4 OS)
Ties: 0

Bahamoote Win Percentage: 70%

MSF-L Dark Knight Bahamoote 85R2F V. MF-H Libra GB145RSF
DKB: 16(All KO)
Libruh: 4(1 KO, 3 OS)
Ties: 2

Bahamoote Win Percentage: 80%

MSF-L Dark Knight Bahamoote 85R2F V. MF-H Libra SR200RSF
DKB: 18(All KO)
Libruh: 2(All OS)
Ties: 2

Bahamoote Win Percentage: 90%

MSF-L Dark Knight Bahamoote 85R2F V. MF-H Libra 230RSF
DKB: 13(All KO)
Libruh: 7(2 KO, 5 OS)
Ties: 0

Bahamoote Win Percentage: 65%

MF-H Lightning L-Drago R2F V. MF-H Libra GB145RSF
LLD: 7(All KO)
Libruh: 3(1 KO, 2 OS)
Ties: 0

Bahamoote Win Percentage: 75%