World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc. Beyblade Discussion Beyblade General

LAD vs Rolling On An Edge, Is There A Difference?

Dec. 26, 2017  6:15 AM
 
Short answer: no, but it's probably going to take a little more than that to convince people lol

Anyways, I've been seeing that some judges have been ruling that LAD is only when a beyblade visibly rotates around its axis while in contact with the stadium floor, whereas if a bey stops clearly rotating around its axis, but continues to roll in circles, it is no longer technically spinning, and therefore no longer LAD. I'm going to attempt to prove how this is wrong, and that the bey must be spinning in order to roll in a circle, even if it does not appear visibly to be doing so.

So first off, I've recreated the rolling motion with four still shots of a Drain Fafnir combo, as you can see, a single point of the dF layer remains in contact with the floor, and the rest of the bey rotates around that point:

[Image: zLYMU6U.jpg]

Next, I've added a few points and lines, one blue point on the edge of the layer that remains in contact with the floor, one black on the god chip, and one yellow on the edge of the layer directly opposite of the blue dot. Through these three I've drawn a red line.

[Image: S45TNne.jpg]

Next, without rotating or moving any of the lines or dots, I'm going to remove the images of dF, and draw a straight green line that passes through all the blue dots.

[Image: J7GnpdO.png]

Finally, I will move the lines so that the black dots, aka the god chip and the axis of rotation that counts toward LAD, are along the line. This way, I'm isolating the rotation of the bey from its motion on the floor, so that you can see how the dots do in fact complete rotations around the bey's main axis of rotation.

[Image: EDPqJig.png]

So, if the bey is in fact rotating, why doesn't it look like it is? Similar to the way the moon is tidally locked with he earth, the bey is stuck in contact with a point on its layer. This means that the bey can only rotate around its axis at the exact same rate that it rolls in a circle. Because its rotation is the same relative to its rolling, it appears to be standing still, when if fact, in order for it to appear to be standing still, it has to be rotating.

Sorry if these images have been a little crude, but hopefully I've convinced you that rolling on the stadium is LAD, and cleared up this confusion on judging spin finishes. Just to hammer the point home, I've added those pink circles to the original image so that you can see how it all works together:

[Image: XJ3yDRf.jpg]

Thanks for reading! :)
Dec. 26, 2017  9:46 AM
 
Makes sense. though we here in Mumbai treat both as LAD as long as it makes a complete rotation
Dec. 26, 2017  9:46 PM
 
Rolling is spinning horizontally, and Beyblades aren't designed to be rolled like BeyWheelz; they're designed to spin on a vertical axis. The moment your bey begins to spin on an axis other than that which you can possibly start it on by legal methods, that means it has at some point stopped spinning to change axes, which means it's out of play.

What you've described demonstrates a shift in the rotational axes of the bey that only reinforces the current ruling. The whole bey is actually just pivoting around that blue dot, but you've illustrated the motion in pink incorrectly.

I don't have time to make a graphic and short video clip to properly disprove this right now, but if it's really necessary for some of you, I'll try to do it when I get home tonight.
Dec. 26, 2017  10:23 PM
 
The bey does pivot around that blue dot, but that does not mean it is no longer spinning, the axis simply tilts during precession to the same angle that would be acceptable for LAD. The only thing that differentiates commonly accepted LAD and rolling is the relative speed between the two axis of motion: All beys pivot around a point during precession, and as they lose spin the pivot becomes more pronounced in relation to to that main axis of spin. When the bey transitions to LAD, the axis is so tilted that the bey makes contact with the floor. For a few moments, the bey rolls while rotating faster than it pivots, so it appears to be spinning, but eventually the spinning reaches the same speed as the pivot, so it can look like it has stopped spinning, but as I demonstrated, it hasn't. In order for a bey to roll, it must be spinning around its main axis of rotation, and the axis of rotation does not changed or shift from when it was spinning faster than the pivot, which is what is more widely accepted as LAD.

To say that a bey is out of play when its axis of rotation has shifted is to say that it is out of play when it begins to wobble or precess, which I think we can agree would be ludicrous.

If you'll entertain a dumb idea with me, imagine that a blader launched their bey into a stadium like a beywheel for some reason. At what point is that bey out of play? As soon as it left the launcher, when it burst on contact with the stadium floor, when it rolled straight into a pocket, or when, by some miracle, none of these things happened and it stopped spinning from the friction with the stadium?
Dec. 27, 2017  12:04 AM
 
Really, I think the thing here would have to be precisely what the top is spinning on. As much as it may be rotating (albeit slowly on the floor), beys are meant to spin specifically on their tips, not on their sides. If it's rolling around like that, it's spinning on the edge more than the tip. Beyblades do not spin on their edges, hence why it's different than a spin even though it does rotate in a roll as you've proven here.

To answer the dumb idea, that would be a severe mislaunch. It's not gonna happen unless something seriously goes wrong, like a launcher breaking, and even then it would either have to be redone or the person launching it that way would be disqualified for poor launching (assuming I've read the rules right. I am kinda new here). It's not valid at any time.
Dec. 27, 2017  12:25 AM
 
(Dec. 27, 2017  12:04 AM)MagikHorse Wrote: Really, I think the thing here would have to be the floor of the stadium. As much as it may be rotating (albeit slowly on the floor), beys are meant to spin specifically on the tips, not on their sides. If it's not rotating around the tips axis without relying on rolling on the side, it's not really a spin as much as a roll, as it's spinning around the edge and not the tip. Beyblades do not spin on their edges, hence why it's different than a spin even though it does rotate in a roll as you've proven here.

Beyblades do spin on their edges. That is the very basis for LAD, as explained in this article about zombie customs from the plastic era http://beyblade.wikia.com/wiki/Zombie#Life_After_Death
Dec. 27, 2017  1:53 AM
 
You're missing my point, so I'm going to say one thing: rotation does not imply spin. Spinning in Beyblade (as far as the rules are concerned) is a rotation along the axis of the tip faster than the rotation along the stadium floor on its edge with at least enough energy to rotate at least once more around its tip (or mathematically put, "Rtip > Redge where the remaining Rtip >1 rotation"). It can still spin even if its scraping its side along the floor (otherwise a simple scrape along the floor would be an instant KO for rolling), but for it to be legally spinning the tip still has to rotate faster than the edge rotates around the stadium floor.

This is partially why LAD is a confusing name, as "Life After Death" implies that it is actually dead, but it can't actually be "dead" or else it would have already lost. LAD, as from that article itself, "is used to describe a zombie's ability to continue spinning on its side after it has fallen over", which accurately describes the actual intent of LAD of elongating the time it can stay spinning around its tip even when it's on its edge. Even beys with high LAD capabilities still must follow the above formula for spinning faster around their tips than rotating around the stadium floor on edge, or else they're not spinning but rolling, and rolling isn't a spin despite the minute rotation.

Really, that's what it comes down to: spinning along the axis of the tip faster than around the floor, and knowing that rotation doesn't necessarily mean it's spinning since the rotation around the tip still has to be faster.
Dec. 27, 2017  2:16 AM
 
Nowhere in the rulebook does it say a bey must be rotating faster than than the rotation along the floor. Taken from the burst rulebook (found here: https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-WBO-Org...Discussion )

"A Beyblade is still considered to be spinning as long as it is visibly rotating. Some Beyblades have parts that allow the upper half to continue rotating after the bottom half has stopped; these are still considered to be spinning. Once a Beyblade stops spinning, the round ends. If a Beyblade starts spinning again after it has stopped, the round does not resume."

I have shown that the beyblade does rotate as it rolls, visibly so, or else I would not be able to show it in pictures. The new motion added by rolling makes it harder to perceive, but that does not mean you can't see it rotating as I showed in the last picture. The transition from Upright spinning to precession to LAD is smooth, the bey does not stop spinning or change rotation direction in any way. I might add that the rulebook doesn't say anything about axis of rotation, but I'm sure we can all agree that we mean the axis that can be drawn through the center of the layer/god chip to the tip of the driver.
Dec. 27, 2017  2:48 AM
 
(Dec. 27, 2017  2:16 AM)XYZ-Jaden Wrote: Nowhere in the rulebook does it say a bey must be rotating faster than than the rotation along the floor. Taken from the burst rulebook (found here: https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-WBO-Org...Discussion )

"A Beyblade is still considered to be spinning as long as it is visibly rotating. Some Beyblades have parts that allow the upper half to continue rotating after the bottom half has stopped; these are still considered to be spinning. Once a Beyblade stops spinning, the round ends. If a Beyblade starts spinning again after it has stopped, the round does not resume."

I have shown that the beyblade does rotate as it rolls, visibly so, or else I would not be able to show it in pictures. The new motion added by rolling makes it harder to perceive, but that does not mean you can't see it rotating as I showed in the last picture. The transition from Upright spinning to precession to LAD is smooth, the bey does not stop spinning or change rotation direction in any way. I might add that the rulebook doesn't say anything about axis of rotation, but I'm sure we can all agree that we mean the axis that can be drawn through the center of the layer/god chip to the tip of the driver.

You have already put your foot in your own mouth here mate. Here is a qoute from your OP
 "I'm going to attempt to prove how this is wrong, and that the bey must be spinning in order to roll in a circle, even if it does not appear visibly to be doing so." 
The rule states that a bey must be visibly spinning to be considered in play.
"So, if the bey is in fact rotating, why doesn't it look like it is? Similar to the way the moon is tidally locked with he earth, the bey is stuck in contact with a point on its layer. This means that the bey can only rotate around its axis at the exact same rate that it rolls in a circle. Because its rotation is the same relative to its rolling, it appears to be standing still, when if fact, in order for it to appear to be standing still, it has to be rotating."
As you have demonstrated here, though the bey may be spinning it is not visibly rotating and thusly the round ends.
Dec. 27, 2017  2:58 AM
 
Perhaps it doesn't state that directly in the rules, but it's how it's implied here: When it's rolling along the edge, the top isn't visibly rotating. It is actually rotating, but since it's rotating at the same rate around the edge as around the axis of the tip (my definition of rolling) and it's impossible to judge how much spin that is, the appearance of rotation is broken and that's what truly matters here. If it doesn't appear to be spinning, it isn't spinning. It's pretty much saying "No = No" here.
Dec. 27, 2017  5:51 AM
 
(Dec. 27, 2017  2:48 AM)Shaady Wrote: You have already put your foot in your own mouth here mate. Here is a qoute from your OP
 "I'm going to attempt to prove how this is wrong, and that the bey must be spinning in order to roll in a circle, even if it does not appear visibly to be doing so." 
The rule states that a bey must be visibly spinning to be considered in play.
"So, if the bey is in fact rotating, why doesn't it look like it is? Similar to the way the moon is tidally locked with he earth, the bey is stuck in contact with a point on its layer. This means that the bey can only rotate around its axis at the exact same rate that it rolls in a circle. Because its rotation is the same relative to its rolling, it appears to be standing still, when if fact, in order for it to appear to be standing still, it has to be rotating."
As you have demonstrated here, though the bey may be spinning it is not visibly rotating and thusly the round ends.

Oh yeah no I'm aware of the wording I used in the op, I used that wording because I wasn't aware of the exact wording in the rulebook (though I don't like that wording cause it's kinda vague). Definitely should've looked it up before making the post lmao. My point is that the bey is very clearly moving and spinning in some way. The problem is that some people look at it and think "that's spinning" and some don't. I was trying to show how I can see the bey spinning to people who don't, so I used language they would use to describe the bey. If they bey wasn't visibly spinning, I wouldn't be able to use pictures to explain this, cause there'd be nothing to show.

Anyways, that wording mistake is pretty argument breaking, so I'm not gonna try to keep arguing under it. Like I said, I should have looked up the exact rules before making the post, and while I don't think I am wrong, that error on my part makes it so hard to communicate what I mean that it's a little futile to keep going. I'm not gonna go back and edit the op, cause that would be ridiculous, so to those of you who saw/see what I meant, maybe you could start this up again from a different, less doomed angle than I chose. And to those of you who disagree, I guess we'll have to agree to leave it at that ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ thanks for sticking with me, even if we don't see eye-to-eye
Dec. 28, 2017  4:59 PM
 
I'm with Jaden on this one. If a bey is making full rotations then it is, by definition, spinning.
Plus, as a physicist, the idea that you're ignoring demonstrable angular momentum in favour of what is essentially your own personal preference angers me greatly.

Furthermore, I would argue that launching Basalt with banking in excess of 70° to produce a high speed linear motion back and forth through the stadium's centre, aimed such that it spends at least half the time striking towards an exit, is a legitimate, if highly risky, strategy.
Dec. 28, 2017  5:07 PM
 
(Dec. 28, 2017  4:59 PM)Dracomageat Wrote: I'm with Jaden on this one. If a bey is making full rotations then it is, by definition, spinning.
Plus, as a physicist, the idea that you're ignoring demonstrable angular momentum in favour of what is essentially your own personal preference angers me greatly.

Furthermore, I would argue that launching Basalt with banking in excess of 70° to produce a high speed linear motion back and forth through the stadium's centre, aimed such that it spends at least half the time striking towards an exit, is a legitimate, if highly risky, strategy.

i honestly gotta agree on this one also but as long as it makes a full rotation
Dec. 28, 2017  9:05 PM
 
There's nothing in the rulebooks that states a "full rotation" is required for a Beyblade to be considered "spinning", so we can safely exclude that term from the discussion. As long as a Beyblade is still "visibly rotating" to any degree around its vertical axis, it is still considered to be spinning.

However, I do think that this distinction is important:

MagikHorse Wrote:Spinning in Beyblade (as far as the rules are concerned) is a rotation along the axis of the tip faster than the rotation along the stadium floor

This makes clearer that a Beyblade simply rolling on the stadium floor and not visibly rotating around its vertical axis at the end of a round would not be considered spinning because the rotation along the vertical axis isn't visible or faster than the rotation occurring along the stadium floor. It also invalidates any claims that a Beyblade rolling/rotating along and because of the stadium floor alone would still be considered in play. Our intention has always been that a Beyblade must be spinning on its vertical axis as a result of the momentum applied from the initial launch, which means that it immediately is considered out of play the moment it stops rotating because of that initial momentum and begins to be assisted only by the stadium itself.

A good example of something similar to this is in Zero-G Stadiums when a Beyblade has stopped spinning around its vertical axis completely, but then is immediately carried around the stadium by the momentum of the sway; it might appear to be spinning, but it really isn't. It's the floor and movement of the stadium that is allowing it to continue producing momentum and maybe even rotations around the vertical axis, not the initial launch. This type of situation can be difficult to judge because the stadium itself can indeed help to continue that initial momentum around the vertical axis too, but the distinction is when a Beyblade has stopped and then continues to be helped only by the stadium, even if that stoppage and continuation happens within a split second.

Hopefully this makes sense. I know this ruling has been a point of contention for a little while here at our events in Toronto, especially with the release of Bearing for Beyblade Burst. It's especially difficult because the broad meaning of "rotation" (Definition: "A rotation is a circular movement of an object around a center (or point) of rotation.") and using it as part of definition of "spinning" as it relates to Beyblade can be misleading if not given proper context. It's something that's easier to explain the intention of in person.

Ultimately, this is one area where judges discretion will always come into play no matter what we try to clarify, but I do think that a video would be beneficial @[Angry Face], and perhaps some additional clarification in the wording of the rule itself to make sure there is a better chance all judges are enforcing the rules as accurately as possible. We try to keep our rulebooks as concise and easy to understand as possible as they are already quite long and complex, but that does admittedly lead to situations like this sometimes where additional clarification would be helpful.
Feb. 02, 2018  7:13 AM
 
So here's the post I was going to make on this issue, but I needed some (poorly made) diagrams to help visualize what I'm describing:

I think where most people seem to be getting confused is the fact that there are, in most cases, two axes that the Beyblade rotates around (I guess one could be considered an axis of revolution? idk this is why I made the diagrams) - the one that goes through the very center of the Beyblade and the one in the center of the stadium. When a stationary Beyblade is launched, these are generally the same axis.
[Image: MPD1201.png]
The difference between the two axes becomes clear when the Beyblade begins precessing, as seen here:
[Image: h2sn4jX.png]
The Beyblade is rotating around both axes, the one through its center marked in purple as well as the one in the center of the stadium marked in red (due to gravity and the shape of the stadium).

There's a few situations where it's unclear on whether the Beyblade is spinning or rolling:
[Image: M0RbrXj.png]
In this one here, the Beyblade is rotating around both axes at once, but its point of contact with the floor which it pivots around is not the same as its axis of rotation. This is what things like B: D and Bearing usually do, and Beast Behemoth movements in this anime clip are actually a decent visual representation of what this looks like. This should still be considered spinning as the Beyblade is still rotating around its axis with the momentum from the original launch, even if that axis is not the same as the contact point with the ground.

[Image: 7ghH2h1.png]
[Image: DpbTSVJ.png]
I believe this is the situation that MonoDragon described where Disk/Layer/Metal Wheel/whatever touches the ground and becomes the pivot point -  in the first image, I would still consider the Beyblade to be spinning, until the purple axis merges with the red one in the center of the stadium in the second image, since that's when the Beyblade stops rotating around its axis of rotation.

The problem is, we need to come up with distinct names for these two axes that leave no doubt as to what we are referring to in the rulebook, and how to describe how the Beyblade stops spinning when they merge (there's probably be a few non-obvious situations I haven't thought of where this isn't necessarily true), which brings another level of complication when these axes are usually the same to begin with. And even then, it'll be pretty difficult for judges and players to pinpoint this moment as it happens in a match, so I'm not exactly sure if this ruling will help clarify much, haha.
Feb. 02, 2018  7:22 AM
 
(Feb. 02, 2018  7:13 AM)Wombat Wrote: So here's the post I was going to make on this issue, but I needed some (poorly made) diagrams to help visualize what I'm describing:

I think where most people seem to be getting confused is the fact that there are, in most cases, two axes that the Beyblade rotates around (I guess one could be considered an axis of revolution? idk this is why I made the diagrams) - the one that goes through the very center of the Beyblade and the one in the center of the stadium. When a stationary Beyblade is launched, these are generally the same axis.
[Image: MPD1201.png]
The difference between the two axes becomes clear when the Beyblade begins precessing, as seen here:
[Image: h2sn4jX.png]
The Beyblade is rotating around both axes, the one through its center marked in purple as well as the one in the center of the stadium marked in red (due to gravity and the shape of the stadium).

There's a few situations where it's unclear on whether the Beyblade is spinning or rolling:
[Image: M0RbrXj.png]
In this one here, the Beyblade is rotating around both axes at once, but its point of contact with the floor which it pivots around is not the same as its axis of rotation. This is what things like B: D and Bearing usually do, and Beast Behemoth movements in this anime clip are actually a decent visual representation of what this looks like. This should still be considered spinning as the Beyblade is still rotating around its axis with the momentum from the original launch, even if that axis is not the same as the contact point with the ground.

[Image: 7ghH2h1.png]
[Image: DpbTSVJ.png]
I believe this is the situation that MonoDragon described where Disk/Layer/Metal Wheel/whatever touches the ground and becomes the pivot point -  in the first image, I would still consider the Beyblade to be spinning, until the purple axis merges with the red one in the center of the stadium in the second image, since that's when the Beyblade stops rotating around its axis of rotation.

The problem is, we need to come up with distinct names for these two axes that leave no doubt as to what we are referring to in the rulebook, and how to describe how the Beyblade stops spinning when they merge (there's probably be a few non-obvious situations I haven't thought of where this isn't necessarily true), which brings another level of complication when these axes are usually the same to begin with. And even then, it'll be pretty difficult for judges and players to pinpoint this moment as it happens in a match, so I'm not exactly sure if this ruling will help clarify much, haha.
make that axis/axises not axes
Feb. 02, 2018  9:07 AM
 
@[Wombat], thanks for those diagrams! However, I think that ultimately the only axis that matters is the axis of rotation that runs through the center of the Beyblade ... rotating simultaneously on another axis is fine, but for a Beyblade to be considered spinning the only thing which matters is whether or not it is visibly rotating around the axis running through the center of the Beyblade as a result of the original launch. Even in that anime example you gave (which was pretty good), you can see at the very end that Beast Behemoth was visibly rotating around the axis running through its center before it stopped, so it was still "spinning" by what I feel should be our definition. No matter where the Layer/Wheel/etc ends up making contact with the stadium floor when it falls over, the determining factor with regards to whether or not it is still spinning is whether or not it is rotating along the axis running through its center.

Here is an updated, work in progress definition of spinning:

Gameplay Appendix – Spinning Wrote:A Beyblade is still considered to be spinning as long as it is visibly rotating to any degree along the axis running directly through the center of the Beyblade faster than the rotation along the stadium floor. A complete full rotation around this axis is not needed to be considered spinning. Rotation along the stadium floor alone is considered ‘rolling’ and is therefore no longer considered to be spinning.

Some Beyblades have parts that allow the upper half to continue rotating after the bottom half has stopped; these are still considered to be spinning. Once a Beyblade stops spinning, the round ends. If a Beyblade starts spinning again after it has stopped, the round does not resume.

Bolded text is new additions to the existing ruling. In my definition, I think it's pretty clear that rotation occurring in relation to the stadium floor alone does not constitute 'spinning'.

Feedback is welcome! Hoping we can nail this down soon.