hmmmm........ yes thats true it will be a time consumer, guess making a second metagame is the key, and what do you suggest, one for the old beys and one for the new beys or is it per tier?
Do we need a second format?
Poll: Do we need a second format?
| That would be good for the metagame |
|
50 |
| Leave it as it is, it's not important if most parts will become useless |
|
21 |
| Total: | 100% | 71 vote(s) |
(May. 07, 2011 12:37 AM)♥ Wrote: When we were discussing the Libra ban, we were presented with several avenues, including banning Libra when used in conjunction with a Metal Face, or on certain heights, or banning certain weights. Really, these constitute judges' worst nightmares - it's far easier to ban a part outright than have to inspect everything at length. I think any suggestion which includes the banning of certain combinations of parts together is not viable.
To be honest I have only vaguely read through the posts in this topic exactly for that reason. I am not considering much of what has been posted.
Think practical, everyone. There are kids who do not even read or know our basic rules, and they have a right to participate in our tournaments. Do you really see yourself explaining such details more than once at a tournament, where time is not really free ?
(May. 07, 2011 3:07 AM)Kai-V Wrote:(May. 07, 2011 12:37 AM)♥ Wrote: When we were discussing the Libra ban, we were presented with several avenues, including banning Libra when used in conjunction with a Metal Face, or on certain heights, or banning certain weights. Really, these constitute judges' worst nightmares - it's far easier to ban a part outright than have to inspect everything at length. I think any suggestion which includes the banning of certain combinations of parts together is not viable.
To be honest I have only vaguely read through the posts in this topic exactly for that reason. I am not considering much of what has been posted.
Think practical, everyone. There are kids who do not even read or know our basic rules, and they have a right to participate in our tournaments. Do you really see yourself explaining such details more than once at a tournament, where time is not really free ?
well said it is already har d for me to keep up with it, if there would make a new format where will you draw a line between formats, and is it practical. I was supporter of it but later on I found way to many flaws in it and you mentioned the key word KIDS. mY little nephew is six try to give him the new set of rules to read he wouldn't understand thing. Unless you make a tournament for preteeners and kids, and one for teenagers and the new set of rules.
But i think would not help there will always a combo sooner or later that will dominate the division, it took a while to find the LT combo but it is here now. And libra before that, so you will just restart the vicious cycle all over again.
I was thinking about something like this last night. As TT rapidly releases top-tier parts, those who can't buy every new bey lose any chance at tourneys. Hence, truly killing the Metagame.
Simplicity is key. If the kids don't understand the rules of the second format, they can compete in the open format.
It might seem simpler to start with a ban of the maximum series (as a whole) onwards (though I'd personally exempt screw capri and beafowl, for simplicitys sake, we may need to ban them so people understand). Then it's simple. Though, the 130 track is hard to spot. This is why a parts banlist may be simpler to judge. I'd suggest a standard poster for all tournaments with the banlist, that must be read at entry. That said, the only really banned tracks would be bd145, 230, th170, f: s and f: d, all of which are easy to spot. Wheel wise, again, they're easily spotted, basalt, hell, fang, beat, and maybe big bang? Again, easily seen. rs and rsf might need to be looked at later, but I think I've covered the important parts for now. Obviously banning new parts by default is probably a simple idea, though if, for example, a 115 track was introduced, we'd be able to unban it quickly.
I hope that passes the simplicity check?
It will be a bit difficult to start, but for the health of the metagame, we really need this second format.
It might seem simpler to start with a ban of the maximum series (as a whole) onwards (though I'd personally exempt screw capri and beafowl, for simplicitys sake, we may need to ban them so people understand). Then it's simple. Though, the 130 track is hard to spot. This is why a parts banlist may be simpler to judge. I'd suggest a standard poster for all tournaments with the banlist, that must be read at entry. That said, the only really banned tracks would be bd145, 230, th170, f: s and f: d, all of which are easy to spot. Wheel wise, again, they're easily spotted, basalt, hell, fang, beat, and maybe big bang? Again, easily seen. rs and rsf might need to be looked at later, but I think I've covered the important parts for now. Obviously banning new parts by default is probably a simple idea, though if, for example, a 115 track was introduced, we'd be able to unban it quickly.
I hope that passes the simplicity check?
It will be a bit difficult to start, but for the health of the metagame, we really need this second format.
![[Image: UwZsp7A.png]](https://i.imgur.com/UwZsp7A.png)
(May. 07, 2011 3:07 AM)Kai-V Wrote: There are kids who do not even read or know our basic rules, and they have a right to participate in our tournaments. Do you really see yourself explaining such details more than once at a tournament, where time is not really free ?
That is the only problem I see with it, otherwise it's a really good idea.
(May. 07, 2011 6:05 AM)th!nk Wrote: Simplicity is key. If the kids don't understand the rules of the second format, they can compete in the open format.
It might seem simpler to start with a ban of the maximum series (as a whole) onwards (though I'd personally exempt screw capri and beafowl, for simplicitys sake, we may need to ban them so people understand). Then it's simple. Though, the 130 track is hard to spot. This is why a parts banlist may be simpler to judge. I'd suggest a standard poster for all tournaments with the banlist, that must be read at entry. That said, the only really banned tracks would be bd145, 230, th170, f: s and f: d, all of which are easy to spot. Wheel wise, again, they're easily spotted, basalt, hell, fang, beat, and maybe big bang? Again, easily seen. rs and rsf might need to be looked at later, but I think I've covered the important parts for now. Obviously banning new parts by default is probably a simple idea, though if, for example, a 115 track was introduced, we'd be able to unban it quickly.
I hope that passes the simplicity check?
It will be a bit difficult to start, but for the health of the metagame, we really need this second format.
Thats why they want to make a new format, to avoid banning all those parts. And you do realize that you just condemning all 4D beylades right?
When I say "ban" I mean "exclude from the second metagame". And yes, because they're overpowered, removing basalt means the attack-type 4D blades will dominate. Hence, to rebalance, they must be removed. We ban by default so we prevent a destabilisation of the format every time a new bey is introduced.
I'm not sure how big bang will do without the other 4d/maximum blades, that can be tested once we have the format set up and stable.
I'm not sure how big bang will do without the other 4d/maximum blades, that can be tested once we have the format set up and stable.
so you want a:
unlimited
and a limited tournament right?
unlimited
and a limited tournament right?
(May. 07, 2011 6:19 AM)th!nk Wrote: When I say "ban" I mean "exclude from the second metagame". And yes, because they're overpowered, removing basalt means the attack-type 4D blades will dominate. Hence, to rebalance, they must be removed. We ban by default so we prevent a destabilisation of the format every time a new bey is introduced.
I'm not sure how big bang will do without the other 4d/maximum blades, that can be tested once we have the format set up and stable.
Wait, why don't we actually restrict players to use certain parts by looking at the parts other participants have with them?! We must see if most players are having top tiers or not. If yes, then no banning of parts for that tourney. If most use parts that can't beat the top tiers, then some beys can be banned! Then again, lots of time will be wasted.... Also, another problem is, what if there is a blader like me, who owns just one bey?! And that being Basalt???
![[Image: janstarblastsignature.jpg]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-imUVk9PErhw/Tb5jNvGKumI/AAAAAAAAAFw/8iSsYhW7vEw/janstarblastsignature.jpg)
If you only owned basalt, you'd have to compete in the Open/full format.
And that would still be far too much work. A simple banlist, well publicised, on the site and at tourneys, should be enough, with two separate formats.
And that would still be far too much work. A simple banlist, well publicised, on the site and at tourneys, should be enough, with two separate formats.
Well, yes thats just so very true! Looks like I just love to make things really difficult for others...
. So, we must now start making a list of parts; and divide them accordingly. 
. So, we must now start making a list of parts; and divide them accordingly.
Well, I'd still like more input from tournament organisers, and I'd think the mods/council would probably too.
Will it based on weight, Height, wideness, or just plan effectiveness?
Stevebak, you're not being very helpful here. It's obvious that the banlist will be determined by the effectiveness of the parts, in that without banning, they skew the metagame enough to preclude the use of a number of other parts (mainly by reducing those parts win rates to 0 or thereabouts). This has been a basic understanding since the beginning of the discussion.
A list like that would be too specific, and it would change too much, I am certain. Therefore, it is still not practical ... We want to edit the Rulebooks as little as possible if we can avoid it.
Fair call. The only semi-practical solution I see is if we kept a topic with the current banlist and included a link (shortened for print versions) to it in the rulebook. Of course, I am unsure of what is involved with the rulebook at tourneys, and I understand it is supposed to contain ALL relevant information, so this obviously may not be an acceptable solution, but in my opinion, it is probably the fairest.
Again, of course, we have to consider the difficulty of newbies determining the list, but a current printout at each tourney on a large sign at entry may help this (as long as entrants are directed to check it. Flyers would be an optimal solution, however I am sure organisers won't enjoy printing off a load of flyers and the costs involved in that).
The only risks we have of removing the maximum series onwards as a whole is being unfair towards non-overpowered parts or beys released in the maximum series and onwards (I may be biased by my love of screw capricorn, in this respect), and the difficulty created for judges in spotting certain parts (such as 130, for example). It IS easier to understand for kids, though, AND would have the benefit of a permanent, set-in-stone metagame (once established, that is, we'd still need to ensure it was balanced and varied, so RS, RSF and maybe even Lightning might require a review). That is the simplest option, however, I do feel it's not fair on any more recent underpowered parts (Screw, 130, MF, W2D, EWD, UW145, and the CW's).
The third option is that we do not have a second format at all, however, I personally don't like that particular solution
May also be worth noting that it'll still be a while before Hasbro release the Maximum series, and that most of these newbies use hasbro. Just a note, and it'll become a moot point when they do, but yeah.
Again, of course, we have to consider the difficulty of newbies determining the list, but a current printout at each tourney on a large sign at entry may help this (as long as entrants are directed to check it. Flyers would be an optimal solution, however I am sure organisers won't enjoy printing off a load of flyers and the costs involved in that).
The only risks we have of removing the maximum series onwards as a whole is being unfair towards non-overpowered parts or beys released in the maximum series and onwards (I may be biased by my love of screw capricorn, in this respect), and the difficulty created for judges in spotting certain parts (such as 130, for example). It IS easier to understand for kids, though, AND would have the benefit of a permanent, set-in-stone metagame (once established, that is, we'd still need to ensure it was balanced and varied, so RS, RSF and maybe even Lightning might require a review). That is the simplest option, however, I do feel it's not fair on any more recent underpowered parts (Screw, 130, MF, W2D, EWD, UW145, and the CW's).
The third option is that we do not have a second format at all, however, I personally don't like that particular solution
May also be worth noting that it'll still be a while before Hasbro release the Maximum series, and that most of these newbies use hasbro. Just a note, and it'll become a moot point when they do, but yeah.
I'd be willing to make my tournament a testing ground for this, banning 230, Hell, BD145 and Basalt if you want me to see the change in variation?
![[Image: Raykon%20-%20Signature2.png]](https://dmsss.webs.com/Raykon%20-%20Signature2.png)
Momiji, I'd take care to ban Fang, L Drago Destroy, Beat and possibly Big Bang, if you planned to do that. I haven't realy tested what fang/LDD are capable of without Basalt/230/BD145/Hell to counter them, but I'd be quite sure if anyone has Beat and a good sliding shoot, they'll cruise through the tourney. You gotta keep the balancing effect the defensive parts have in mind 
Then there's Big Bang, I'm still unsure how it'll do without everything else there, for both Defense and attack.
Then there's Big Bang, I'm still unsure how it'll do without everything else there, for both Defense and attack.
I guess I'd just ban the maximum series onwards, with the exception of Killer Beafowl and Screw capricorne?
Although aside from Beat Lynx, I don't think 4D places much of a challenge on the older blades.
If the Mods/Other respected members etc. feel it would be a good way of judging this, I'd be happy to.
Although aside from Beat Lynx, I don't think 4D places much of a challenge on the older blades.
If the Mods/Other respected members etc. feel it would be a good way of judging this, I'd be happy to.
@th!nk- While banning parts, we must also try to keep some parts of a certain type. Removing the maximum series is a great idea, as three of them are really overpowered, while the remaining two are useless (Screw is still good though). Also, if we remove Lightning, it will make it almost impossible to get the best attack, as I there is just no other wheel as good as Lightning for attack. I think the best for attack after lightning will be Gravity(correct me if wrong, no 4D please). In that case, there will not be much variety of parts for attack lovers(like me). Then again, Gravity may overpower the metagame too much as there will be no powerful wheels like Basalt. Then, Earth based combos will rule, resulting in a complete wrecker of the metagame. Not only should we consider effectiveness, we must also consider the amount of rise in overpowered beys too. If we remove Basalt, 230, etc; Lightning will rule; remove Lightning, Earth and Gravity will rule. I hope you understand what I say. I am BAD at explaining, but I hope everyone get my point.
I see what you are getting at, Jan. It's worth noting that I for one wouldn't support a ban on lightning, as we've previously seen it doesn't see great use at tourneys, even when MF LLD 85/90/CH120RF was able to beat just about anything when launched correctly, and as such, wouldn't be a huge issue. Do remember that libra would still be legal, though as my testing pre-Maximum Series showed, it likely wouldn't be a huge defensive or offensive threat, although the removal of rubber defense would likely make (MF?) Libra CH120RF viable, resulting in us needing to question banning that again 
Removing Lightning, however, would cause some problems in defeating libra. I am unsure how MF-H Libra 85D/CS would do in the restricted metagame, though I suspect without 230 reducing the useage of low track attackers, it wouldn't be anywhere near as viable as it is now.
That said, there ARE plenty of decent attack types, even without Lightning. Gravity (especially now that Perseus attack is widely available), is almost on par, if not on par with lightning, meteo, vulcan, screw (iirc it CAN beat libra), pegasis, leone, saggitario are useable (though some are shut down by RS/RSF, again, those tips wouldn't be particularly common in tournaments due to the very niche nature of them, due to their horrible stamina and weakness to left spin attack). Tournament goers from relevant times are welcome to correct me on that if I'm wrong, I was pretty new here at that time, so I don't really recall. All I remember is experienced users saying that testing against rs/rsf wasn't that useful, as it wasn't particularly practical in tourneys, and also tended to skew results. That said, if Libra CH120RF is still shut down by CS (not sure if I tested that), then banning RS/RSF may become an idea, eventually. Of course, that again results in a complex banlist.
Momiji, that sounds fair to me. Do remember that Fang has a rather ridiculous amount of smash, and without basalt around to keep it in check, I'd be very concerned about it's power destabilising the metagame. Of course, my opinion isn't that important here, what matters is experienced users, who will hopefully see that at the bottom of the previous page (so many important things are missed by ending up posted there
)
My only concern is the 130 track. I mean, it's not likely that it's going to result in unfairness if someone uses one, but I'd be concerned about whining about results if someone uses it by mistake (or to prove a point, though I doubt anyone here is that cynical), and gets far in the tournament (even if that combo is used only for one match).
Edit: See what happens when I post while writing an essay? My post ends up an essay. Hopefully it's not a pain for anyone
Removing Lightning, however, would cause some problems in defeating libra. I am unsure how MF-H Libra 85D/CS would do in the restricted metagame, though I suspect without 230 reducing the useage of low track attackers, it wouldn't be anywhere near as viable as it is now.That said, there ARE plenty of decent attack types, even without Lightning. Gravity (especially now that Perseus attack is widely available), is almost on par, if not on par with lightning, meteo, vulcan, screw (iirc it CAN beat libra), pegasis, leone, saggitario are useable (though some are shut down by RS/RSF, again, those tips wouldn't be particularly common in tournaments due to the very niche nature of them, due to their horrible stamina and weakness to left spin attack). Tournament goers from relevant times are welcome to correct me on that if I'm wrong, I was pretty new here at that time, so I don't really recall. All I remember is experienced users saying that testing against rs/rsf wasn't that useful, as it wasn't particularly practical in tourneys, and also tended to skew results. That said, if Libra CH120RF is still shut down by CS (not sure if I tested that), then banning RS/RSF may become an idea, eventually. Of course, that again results in a complex banlist.
Momiji, that sounds fair to me. Do remember that Fang has a rather ridiculous amount of smash, and without basalt around to keep it in check, I'd be very concerned about it's power destabilising the metagame. Of course, my opinion isn't that important here, what matters is experienced users, who will hopefully see that at the bottom of the previous page (so many important things are missed by ending up posted there
)My only concern is the 130 track. I mean, it's not likely that it's going to result in unfairness if someone uses one, but I'd be concerned about whining about results if someone uses it by mistake (or to prove a point, though I doubt anyone here is that cynical), and gets far in the tournament (even if that combo is used only for one match).
Edit: See what happens when I post while writing an essay? My post ends up an essay. Hopefully it's not a pain for anyone
@think- I couldn't bother to read that, but I survived. 
What you're saying is correct, on terms of this metagame. If you ban something, something would be the best. So you can't actually ban anything. If you leave this as it is, TT will most likely release something that can defeat Basalt, eventually. Banning Hell + BD145 together, meaning that people won't be able to use them together in Boost mode could be something. Beat and Fang could prove a problem in the future, but we could ban them now for, say like a month? LDD and Big Bang, don't really look like a big problem to me.
What you're saying is correct, on terms of this metagame. If you ban something, something would be the best. So you can't actually ban anything. If you leave this as it is, TT will most likely release something that can defeat Basalt, eventually. Banning Hell + BD145 together, meaning that people won't be able to use them together in Boost mode could be something. Beat and Fang could prove a problem in the future, but we could ban them now for, say like a month? LDD and Big Bang, don't really look like a big problem to me.
![[Image: OmegaNovaSigV2.png]](https://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb388/SDamonCronous/OmegaNovaSigV2.png)
GaleForce, it's obvious something will always top the metagame, the point is that Basalt, Hell, BD145 and 230 dominate by a high margin, and require almost no skill.
The problem isn't that something rules the metagame, it's that what rules the metagame is too easy to use, resulting in more of a rock paper scissors scenario in tournaments.
The problem isn't that something rules the metagame, it's that what rules the metagame is too easy to use, resulting in more of a rock paper scissors scenario in tournaments.
That's really so true, momiji, it actually feels like a Pokemon battle. "Ah, he has Basalt tank, well lets go, the winner is him". That is what will happen. Then again, th!nk is correct, that our opinion just doesn't matter a lot(especially mine, I used to say CS was bad ).
GaleForce- Dude, almost everyone hopes that there will be something new, that can beat this old bey. So, there's a 100% chance, that almost every new bey released by TT can beat Basalt handily, as we don't know what's gonna happen. And dude, its human nature, we need change, and that also fast. Waiting for something better to happen, is still not a characteristic part of human psychology.
@th!nk- Yes, there's Meteo, Gravity, Vulcan, Screw, etc. But none of them have shown as much consistency as Lightning. Yes, Max. Meteor is a danger, but Lightning is really required. And yes, those rubber tips, especially CS is also a powerful part. But again, we can't remove it, as then, RS and WB will be the only 'good' choices for Defence. RS will be easy to beat at times, why? Because its S. WB was always top tier until RS and CS outclassed it.
If our suggestions are useless, I recommend that this topic be discussed in Advanced Forum too.
). GaleForce- Dude, almost everyone hopes that there will be something new, that can beat this old bey. So, there's a 100% chance, that almost every new bey released by TT can beat Basalt handily, as we don't know what's gonna happen. And dude, its human nature, we need change, and that also fast. Waiting for something better to happen, is still not a characteristic part of human psychology.
@th!nk- Yes, there's Meteo, Gravity, Vulcan, Screw, etc. But none of them have shown as much consistency as Lightning. Yes, Max. Meteor is a danger, but Lightning is really required. And yes, those rubber tips, especially CS is also a powerful part. But again, we can't remove it, as then, RS and WB will be the only 'good' choices for Defence. RS will be easy to beat at times, why? Because its S. WB was always top tier until RS and CS outclassed it.
If our suggestions are useless, I recommend that this topic be discussed in Advanced Forum too.