Nice dude. Thanks for the such extensive testing, very interesting findings. But yeah, it sucks that you have to sacrifice a Valk every time you test with one. Lol. Hopefully Victory Valk solves that problem
Burst Attack/Burst Defense Discussion?
so great testing and findings! thx! it was really helpfull.
Thanks a lot for these tests, Wombat! I think they highlight one of the most interesting aspects of Beyblade Burst.
![[Image: beybase-signature-is-beyblade-a-sport-Article.jpg]](https://i.postimg.cc/VLksgt2k/beybase-signature-is-beyblade-a-sport-Article.jpg)
Since this thread has kind of evolved into a Force vs Heavy discussion, I thought I'd post my Mid-Geometry class thoughts on the matter.
Force VS Heavy in my opinion comes down to Low Inertia (Which in terms of burst Defense proves to be a good thing) VS High Weight. Inertia is an object's resistance to change in motion, theoretically Heavy being Heavier than Force would have more Inertia, in older generations like HMS and MFB having a lot of inertia would be a great thing for a defense type to have, because it would mean the beyblade would resist the change in motion presented by an attack type much more efficiently than a lighter beyblade with less Inertia. But things change in Burst with the Bursting Gimmick added into the equation. Beyblades Burst when the change in motion is great enough to turn the Layer counter-clockwise 3 times and disconnect the Layer from the Driver's spring mechanism and disconnect that from the Disk. A beyblade with more Inertia in burst, the same way as in past generations would resist the change in motion presented by an Attack Type. But in the circumstances of Burst that resistance to the change in motion will cause the smash attack of the Burst Attack Type to have a much greater impact on the Heavy Defense type, as opposed to the Force defense type, which with less Inertia would, rather than resist the attack types force would move slightly and circumvent a massive blow from being delivered.
So with all of my Underachiever thoughts in mind I've come to the conclusion that under most circumstances, Force is superior to Heavy for Burst Defense in almost every way.
Force VS Heavy in my opinion comes down to Low Inertia (Which in terms of burst Defense proves to be a good thing) VS High Weight. Inertia is an object's resistance to change in motion, theoretically Heavy being Heavier than Force would have more Inertia, in older generations like HMS and MFB having a lot of inertia would be a great thing for a defense type to have, because it would mean the beyblade would resist the change in motion presented by an attack type much more efficiently than a lighter beyblade with less Inertia. But things change in Burst with the Bursting Gimmick added into the equation. Beyblades Burst when the change in motion is great enough to turn the Layer counter-clockwise 3 times and disconnect the Layer from the Driver's spring mechanism and disconnect that from the Disk. A beyblade with more Inertia in burst, the same way as in past generations would resist the change in motion presented by an Attack Type. But in the circumstances of Burst that resistance to the change in motion will cause the smash attack of the Burst Attack Type to have a much greater impact on the Heavy Defense type, as opposed to the Force defense type, which with less Inertia would, rather than resist the attack types force would move slightly and circumvent a massive blow from being delivered.
So with all of my Underachiever thoughts in mind I've come to the conclusion that under most circumstances, Force is superior to Heavy for Burst Defense in almost every way.
![[Image: SpZzmKr.png]](https://i.imgur.com/SpZzmKr.png)
Dude, there is literally a two gram weight difference between Force and Heavy. Inertia shouldn't really be applied in this case. While yes, lighter Disks have less inertia than heavier Disks, what should be considered is the actual design, stamina and weight distribution on each side of the Disk. Heavy is used because it has both of the two attributes. It is far more versatile than Force, despite bursting a tad amount easier. Have you compared the two personally?
@[Mitsu] No, I haven't compared the two disks personally. Probably because to accurately test them I'd have to spend a ton of money on mint layers, like I said these are just thoughts I had during Math class as to how some people were finding that Force is better for Burst Resisting than Heavy, I wasn't aware the difference in weight was so slim though haha. I'm sure there is some other reason Force bursts less than Heavy though, that I could maybe find if I did try some testing which I might, I still think both disks have their uses but I'm more in favor of Force. And if we're talking Outward Weight Distribution isn't Spread the best disk? My Metal Fight knowledge kind of told me that MF-H is worse than MF-L for stamina, then again things change since this is Burst and not MFB. Again, my post was Opinion and Hypothesis based, not experiment based.
(Mar. 31, 2016 9:30 PM)Mitsu Wrote: Dude, there is literally a two gram weight difference between Force and Heavy. Inertia shouldn't really be applied in this case. While yes, lighter Disks have less inertia than heavier Disks, what should be considered is the actual design, stamina and weight distribution on each side of the Disk. Heavy is used because it has both of the two attributes. It is far more versatile than Force, despite bursting a tad amount easier. Have you compared the two personally?
I would like to point out that, although 2g doesn't sound like much, it's still twice the difference between Gemios and a top-tier CW like Cygnus, and is also the same as the difference between a stock Face and a MF-L, or a MF-L and a MF-H. All of these small differences do have a noticeable effect on performance, so I wouldn't rule out weight as a factor.
Though, given that the two do have very different shapes, weight distribution is probably the greater issue. But weight distribution is also a core part of a Beyblade's moment of inertia, which is really just the scientific term for the "Flywheel effect". Most designs providing good Stamina do so because of high moment of inertia (Phantom and Ring come to mind), which is good unless you're in Burst, where that inertia works against you during collisions, as the heavy Disk continues moving while the Layer receives force from the opponent, causing them to move relative to one another. In theory, the best Beyblades to resist Bursting would have low moment of inertia, but that will kill your Stamina and make you lose even more Stamina with each hit. The solution is probably a midway point between "terrible inertia" like Central, and "excellent inertia" from something heavy, round, and preferably wide like Heavy, Ring, or Spread.
Haha, I could definitely say I came off as a bit rude. Sorry about that! (●´ω｀●)7
Attack-wise, I'm not entirely convinced Force is better than Heavy, despite sitting nicer on Valkyrie. After testing Gyro and Zephyr defense against both the two Heavy and Force attack, Force definitely bursted more often. Have we really ever compared the two for defense, though? Through test and completely putting aside discussion about inertia and weight distribution?
Attack-wise, I'm not entirely convinced Force is better than Heavy, despite sitting nicer on Valkyrie. After testing Gyro and Zephyr defense against both the two Heavy and Force attack, Force definitely bursted more often. Have we really ever compared the two for defense, though? Through test and completely putting aside discussion about inertia and weight distribution?
(Mar. 31, 2016 10:10 PM)Mitsu Wrote: Haha, I could definitely say I came off as a bit rude. Sorry about that! (●´ω｀●)7No problem, just glad you noticed that
(Mar. 31, 2016 10:10 PM)Mitsu Wrote: Attack-wise, I'm not entirely convinced Force is better than Heavy, despite sitting nicer on Valkyrie. After testing Gyro and Zephyr defense against both the two Heavy and Force attack, Force definitely bursted more often. Have we really ever compared the two for defense, though? Through test and completely putting aside discussion about inertia and weight distribution?
Yeah, I can sit here and hypothesize all I want, but testing is what we really need to figure this out
We probably need better sample sizes and better testing setups, though. Ideally, we would want a lot more rounds of testing per combo, given the randomness of Burst, and to maximize any differences between the different Disks, a benchmark with about 50/50 odds between the Burst Attacker and the defender would be ideal (since the difference between a 80% win rate and a 90% win rate isn't nearly as statistically significant as a difference between a 50% WR and a 75% WR, although they both account for a doubling in effectiveness).
And then there's also the problem of people not wanting to wear out their Layers' teeth, which isn't helped by the fact that mint teeth are preferable for the purposes of testing Burst Defense.
Yeah thats the thing that sucks about Burst testing. You really want even more rounds than before, but really don't wanna wear your parts for 20 rounds, let alone 50 or something. And by round 50, your results are probably going to change too, because of the wear. So its almost impossible to get a perfect testing environment. Unless someone wants to be spending a lot of money on it 
Here's hoping dual layers makes it easier
Here's hoping dual layers makes it easier
Hey Wombat can you add news discs also please...
(Jul. 06, 2016 2:26 PM)vikrambeyblade Wrote: Hey Wombat can you add news discs also please...
Normally, I would, but there is the whole problem of Valkyrie (which is probably the best Layer for Burst Attack right now) wearing down too fast, which not only limits the amount of tests I can do but also makes them kind of inconsistent, due to Valkyrie bursting itself significantly more and its opponent significantly less even after only 20 rounds of testing.
Unless other people are willing to test, I won't be able to do as much until
- TT releases a second mold of Valkyrie where the teeth don't wear (unlikely because it seems like they're done with Basic Beys)
- TT releases some new Layer that is better at Bursting things than Valkyrie (which, unfortunately, is not O2 or V2)
- Hasbro releases the Basic Beys in the U.S., giving me a much cheaper and easier way to get more Valkyries
If anyone wants to help, these are some comparisons it would be nice to get concrete data on:
- How Gravity and Knuckle stack up against Heavy, Spread, Ring, and Armed in terms of Burst Defense
- Wyvern vs Neptune vs K2, which Bursts the least
- Comparing amount of wins by Burst/KO for Valkyrie on Revolve, Orbit, Needle, Claw, Zephyr, and Xtreme
- Comparing the Burst frequency of Claw, Revolve, Needle, and Orbit
As was posted before, and which is my opinion as well, Xcalibur knocks out more than it bursts, and Wombat wants to test what makes you burst less or more.
Okay, sorry, i didn't remember that
No problem at all, I also wondered about that when I read his post, but then remembered that whenever I use Xcalibur, it mostly knocks outs, then I got curious to know what Wombat's opinion on that was, and a search in this topic answered the question for me hah.
Now that I've gotten my hands on the non-wearing Hasbro Valtyrek, I've been able to conduct some more thorough testing on this topic regarding some of the Disks. For these tests, I used Wyvern ____ Revolve as a Defensive combo and Valtyrek Armed Claw as a Burst Attacker. While using the Hasbro Layer with the Takara-Tomy Driver is illegal in an actual event, I felt that making the control Attacker unburstable would reduce some of the variables in the testing as I was only testing how likely certain Disks were to burst in comparison to one another.
All of these tests were done in the B-09 Standard Stadium. W_R was always assembled in its best balance orientation and launched first. Both Beyblades were straight shot with the Long Winder, VAC at 100% power and W_R at around 75-80%. The "teeth" value in the detailed results denotes the amount of teeth Wyvern skipped in that particular round.
Valtyrek Armed Claw vs Wyvern Heavy Revolve
VAC: 14 wins (2 KO, 12 Burst)
WHR: 26 wins (1 KO, 25 OS)
Wyvern win rate: 65%
Wyvern burst rate: 30%
Average teeth skipped: 2.3
Valtyrek Armed Claw vs Wyvern Gravity Revolve
VAC: 16 wins (1 KO, 15 Burst)
WGR: 24 wins (all OS)
Wyvern win rate: 60%
Wyvern burst rate: 37.5%
Average teeth skipped: 2.675
Valtyrek Armed Claw vs Wyvern Knuckle Revolve
VAC: 10 wins (2 KO, 8 Burst)
WKR: 30 wins (4 KO, 26 OS)
Wyvern win rate: 75%
Wyvern burst rate: 20%
Average teeth skipped: 1.6
Valtyrek Armed Claw vs Wyvern Armed Revolve
VAC: 9 wins (2 KO, 1 OS, 6 Burst)
WAR: 31 wins (all OS)
Wyvern win rate: 77.5%
Wyvern burst rate: 15%
Average teeth skipped: 1.4
So out of the four Disks I've tested using this new method, Gravity bursts the most, followed by Heavy, and then Knuckle and Armed. However, in terms of Stamina, Armed is the worst (even with Wyvern and Revolve as opposed to Valtyrek and Claw, the outspins were close, and it even got outspun by VAC once), while Gravity is the best, and Heavy and Knuckle are somewhere in between (I personally find that Knuckle has slightly better Stamina than Heavy).
After conducting these tests and looking back at my Beyblade choices in tournaments, I honestly think that Armed is more of an offensive Disk than a defensive one. Historically, the goal of Attack types was to defeat the opponent as quickly as possible, which is why Stamina wasn't terribly important to them. Armed's poor Stamina but high Burst Resistance, in my opinion, makes it a better choice for a Burst Attack combo than a Burst Defense one. Knuckle would be a better option for a Burst Defense combo, as it has the Stamina to outspin most Attackers and a pretty high Burst Resistance as well (though Knuckle is like the 'new' Heavy, it goes pretty well on almost any combo).
Gravity should only really be used to increase the Stamina of a combo that's already using a Layer and/or Driver with sufficient Burst Defense (Dark Deathscyther Gravity Orbit and Neptune Gravity Revolve come to mind). As for Heavy, it could be used on a Burst Attack combo to maximize its RPM, but keep in mind that a higher RPM increases the rotational recoil both you and your opponent take, making your combo more likely to burst as well.
When I get the chance, I'll make sure to test other Disks too, namely Spread, Ring, Infinity, Down, and Polish (maybe Jerk too). I'll also make sure to test Layers and Drivers at some point (though this might have to wait until the summer).
All of these tests were done in the B-09 Standard Stadium. W_R was always assembled in its best balance orientation and launched first. Both Beyblades were straight shot with the Long Winder, VAC at 100% power and W_R at around 75-80%. The "teeth" value in the detailed results denotes the amount of teeth Wyvern skipped in that particular round.
Valtyrek Armed Claw vs Wyvern Heavy Revolve
VAC: 14 wins (2 KO, 12 Burst)
WHR: 26 wins (1 KO, 25 OS)
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Wyvern burst rate: 30%
Average teeth skipped: 2.3
Valtyrek Armed Claw vs Wyvern Gravity Revolve
VAC: 16 wins (1 KO, 15 Burst)
WGR: 24 wins (all OS)
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Wyvern burst rate: 37.5%
Average teeth skipped: 2.675
Valtyrek Armed Claw vs Wyvern Knuckle Revolve
VAC: 10 wins (2 KO, 8 Burst)
WKR: 30 wins (4 KO, 26 OS)
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Wyvern burst rate: 20%
Average teeth skipped: 1.6
Valtyrek Armed Claw vs Wyvern Armed Revolve
VAC: 9 wins (2 KO, 1 OS, 6 Burst)
WAR: 31 wins (all OS)
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Wyvern burst rate: 15%
Average teeth skipped: 1.4
So out of the four Disks I've tested using this new method, Gravity bursts the most, followed by Heavy, and then Knuckle and Armed. However, in terms of Stamina, Armed is the worst (even with Wyvern and Revolve as opposed to Valtyrek and Claw, the outspins were close, and it even got outspun by VAC once), while Gravity is the best, and Heavy and Knuckle are somewhere in between (I personally find that Knuckle has slightly better Stamina than Heavy).
After conducting these tests and looking back at my Beyblade choices in tournaments, I honestly think that Armed is more of an offensive Disk than a defensive one. Historically, the goal of Attack types was to defeat the opponent as quickly as possible, which is why Stamina wasn't terribly important to them. Armed's poor Stamina but high Burst Resistance, in my opinion, makes it a better choice for a Burst Attack combo than a Burst Defense one. Knuckle would be a better option for a Burst Defense combo, as it has the Stamina to outspin most Attackers and a pretty high Burst Resistance as well (though Knuckle is like the 'new' Heavy, it goes pretty well on almost any combo).
Gravity should only really be used to increase the Stamina of a combo that's already using a Layer and/or Driver with sufficient Burst Defense (Dark Deathscyther Gravity Orbit and Neptune Gravity Revolve come to mind). As for Heavy, it could be used on a Burst Attack combo to maximize its RPM, but keep in mind that a higher RPM increases the rotational recoil both you and your opponent take, making your combo more likely to burst as well.
When I get the chance, I'll make sure to test other Disks too, namely Spread, Ring, Infinity, Down, and Polish (maybe Jerk too). I'll also make sure to test Layers and Drivers at some point (though this might have to wait until the summer).
![[Image: izt9hKq.png]](https://i.imgur.com/izt9hKq.png)
This is incredibly useful and interesting information. Thanks a lot for the tests @[Wombat]. I think it was a good call using the Hasbro Layer with TT Driver for the attacker. Can't wait to see more!
Although interestingly, I know @[1234beyblade] recently made the switch for D2 on Defense from Spread to Gravity because he finds that it apparently allows it to burst less? Can't say I've observed this myself.
Also, what are you referring to by "non-wearing Hasbro Valtyrek"? Might have missed this, but is there different molds or something?
Although interestingly, I know @[1234beyblade] recently made the switch for D2 on Defense from Spread to Gravity because he finds that it apparently allows it to burst less? Can't say I've observed this myself.
Also, what are you referring to by "non-wearing Hasbro Valtyrek"? Might have missed this, but is there different molds or something?
@[Kei] By non-wearing, he just means regular Valtryek as opposed to Valkyrie.
Great tests, Wombat! I really appreciate how many rounds you played for each Disc; it definitely takes longer, but your results are worth more. Looking forward to future tests as well!
Great tests, Wombat! I really appreciate how many rounds you played for each Disc; it definitely takes longer, but your results are worth more. Looking forward to future tests as well!
![[Image: vwa_copy3_by_elcesplooshe_daejy2u-fullvi...Za8ANFHK5M]](https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/0779b042-834a-4ac6-9292-fab88a9af9cb/daejy2u-70e51d94-acbe-4593-ad69-5434d834b672.jpg/v1/fill/w_1024,h_317,q_75,strp/vwa_copy3_by_elcesplooshe_daejy2u-fullview.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7ImhlaWdodCI6Ijw9MzE3IiwicGF0aCI6IlwvZlwvMDc3OWIwNDItODM0YS00YWM2LTkyOTItZmFiODhhOWFmOWNiXC9kYWVqeTJ1LTcwZTUxZDk0LWFjYmUtNDU5My1hZDY5LTU0MzRkODM0YjY3Mi5qcGciLCJ3aWR0aCI6Ijw9MTAyNCJ9XV0sImF1ZCI6WyJ1cm46c2VydmljZTppbWFnZS5vcGVyYXRpb25zIl19.GJIQK2sXAJm5ScpS3pSVJ8KrA6Ru9qtE4Za8ANFHK5M)
Have not seen this thread before, it is really fascinating stuff, really helpful for someone not super familiar with Burst. Hope to see more stuff coming through for Hasbro parts.
Really interesting stuff. Thanks for posting!
From my test battles with my Burst collection (literally two beyblades not counting Nepstrius 'cause it stinks so bad) Armed has really great at defense compared to Heavy. I only have Hasbro, but with a combo like W2AM VS. S2HZ(Best attack type I have so far) W2 is KO'ed slightly more often than when it has heavy, but not by much. It rarely bursts either, and the hasbro S2 is a pretty good Burst/KO attack layer in my experience. Armed is probably better art Burst Def. than Heavy because it has less inertia like mentioned above, and Hasbro layers' slopes are more vulnerable to bursting because of recoil since they have slopes. It has a decent amount of weight also, which helps defend against KOs. I'm not very good at formal testing but I have battled it enough to feel confident with my thesis. Basically, Armed is a pretty great defense layer (for Hasbro at least), but it would be great if someone with better testing experience and supplies could test it for me.