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Burst Attack/Burst Defense Discussion?

Dec. 26, 2015  9:50 PM
 
Introduction (Optional)

DISCLAIMER: Much of the information in this introduction is educated speculation on why certain Burst parts perform the way they do, based on my knowledge of Beyblades from other generations. Beyblade Burst is a relatively new series and new information is still being discovered about it. As such, take this information with a grain of salt as it may not be reliable.

So this idea has been around for a while, and while I'm definitely not the first one to discover it I *might* be the most vocal about it on the WBO. Basically the idea is that similarly to how Zero-G had Attack/Defense and Zero-G (Sway) Attack/Defense, Beyblade Burst has two methods of Attacking and Defending:
  • KO Attack: The ability to KO an opponent.
  • KO Defense: The ability to resist being KOed.
  • Burst Attack: The ability to Burst an opponent.
  • Burst Defense: The ability to resist being Bursted.

The factors that affect how each Beyblade performs for Burst Attack/Defense are similar to those that affect KO Attack/Defense, grip with the Stadium floor, weight, and contact points. However Layer teeth are also an important factor in how prone a Beyblade is to Bursting. When two Beyblades come into contact, the force of the collision is primarily distributed towards two things: knocking the opposing Beyblade in a certain direction (directional recoil), and rotating or "unclicking" the opposing Beyblade's Layer (known in previous generations as rotational recoil). Here is how each of these factors can affect Burst Defense:
  • Layer tooth shape: A Layer with sharp, bold teeth will be more difficult to Burst than a Layer with shallow, blunt teeth, since more force (rotational recoil) will be required to skip each tooth over the tab of the Driver. By extension, this means that Layers with more worn teeth will also be easier to Burst.
  • Layer shape/contact points: A Layer with many protrusions that get "caught" easily on an opposing Beyblade will put more strain on its teeth when struck. For example, Deathscyther's shape explains why it is more prone to bursting compared to more defensively shaped Layers such as Neptune or Wyvern.
  • Grip with the Stadium floor: While having a strong grip on the Stadium floor is very important to avoid being KOed and controlling recoil, having less force dedicated to managing directional recoil will cause more of the force from a collision to be distributed towards rotational recoil (unclicking the Layer). Therefore a Beyblade that has a lot of friction with the Stadium floor will be easier to Burst.
  • Weight: A heavier Beyblade will have more friction with the Stadium floor, thus directing more force from the collision into rotational recoil. However, if one Beyblade significantly outweighs its opponent collisions between the two will result in more force transferred onto the lighter Beyblade and less onto the heavier one (weight will likely play a larger part in Burst Attack/Defense as weight differences between Beyblades inevitably grow larger).
  • Spin Velocity/RPM: A Beyblade that is spinning faster will both exert more rotational force onto its opponent and suffer more rotational recoil from hits. This is because the Layer and Disk/Driver rotate "independently" of one another, with the Disk carrying most of the Beyblade's angular momentum. During a collision, the Layer moves "backwards" while the Disk and Driver continue moving "forwards" (causing the Layer Teeth to pass over the Driver teeth) since being heavier, it is more difficult to slow down. With a slower rotation speed, the Disk is also easier to slow down and be pushed "backwards" to an extent, making it so during a collision the Beyblade moves more as "one unit" and reduces the amount of teeth skipped.
  • Weight Distribution: As explained in the previous point, the Disk carries most of the Beyblade's angular momentum as it is the component that comprises the majority of the Beyblade's weight. Depending on how this weight is distributed, the Beyblade can become easier or more difficult to Burst. A Disk with lots of Outward Weight Distribution (OWD) will be more difficult to slow down and therefore make teeth skipping more frequent, while a Disk with most of its weight closer to the center of the Beyblade will be easier to slow down and more difficult to Burst.

Testing
In these tests, I decided to see how four of the most popular Disks (Heavy, Spread, Ring, and Armed) affected a combo's KO Defense and Burst Defense. For the combos, I used Wyvern (Disk) Survive as a Stationary Defense type and Spriggan Heavy Accel as an Attack type. From what I have noticed Spriggan seems more of a traditional Attack Layer as opposed to Valkyrie, which is more of a Burst Attack Layer. To compare the Disks' performance, I compared the Burst Rate/KO Rate as well as number of clicks lost (clicks always refers to Wyvern).

Spriggan Heavy Accel vs. Wyvern Heavy Survive
SHA: 9 wins (3 KO, 6 BF)
WHS: 11 wins (1 KO, 5 OS, 3 BF)
4 ties (all DBF) redone
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Wyvern Winrate: 55%
Burst Rate: 66.66% (30%)
KO Rate: 33.33% (15%)
Average Teeth Skipped: 2.6

Spriggan Heavy Accel vs. Wyvern Spread Survive
SHA: 6 wins (3 KO, 2 BF, 1 OS)
WSS: 14 wins (1 KO, 5 BF, 8 OS)
2 ties (both DBF) redone
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Wyvern Winrate: 70%
Burst Rate: 33.33% (10%)
KO Rate: 50% (15%)
Average Teeth Skipped: 1.4


Spriggan Heavy Accel vs. Wyvern Ring Survive
SHA: 7 wins (5 KO, 2 BF)
WRS: 13 wins (5 BF, 8 OS)
3 ties (all DBF) redone
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Wyvern Winrate: 65%
Burst Rate: 28.57% (10%)
KO Rate: 71.42% (25%)
Average Teeth Skipped: 1.2

Spriggan Heavy Accel vs. Wyvern Armed Survive
SHA: 5 wins (2 KO, 1 BF, 2 OS)
WAS: 15 wins (1 KO, 10 BF, 4 OS)
2 ties (both DBF) redone)
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Wyvern Winrate: 75%
Burst Rate: 20% (5%)
KO Rate: 40% (10%)
Average Teeth Skipped: 1.1
To clarify what probably seems unbelievable about Armed: Spriggan was getting KOs, but also blowing itself up in the process. I counted, and there were 7 "ties" where Spriggan KOed Wyvern and Wyvern Bursted Spriggan in the same hit, but due to the ruling on Burst/KO ties, Wyvern wins.

Spriggan Heavy Accel vs. Wyvern Central Survive
SHA: 8 wins (5 KO, 3 BF)
WCS: 12 wins (4 BF, 8 OS)
4 ties (3 DBF, 1 DSF) redone
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Wyvern Winrate: 60%
Burst Rate: 37.5% (15%)
KO Rate: 62.5% (25%)
Average Teeth Skipped: 1.55

Conclusions/Limitations
The two biggest issues with these tests are that Spriggan is more of a traditional Attacker than a Burst Attacker, and that this was my first day using the Burst Stadium and I didn't quite get the heck of the Sliding Shoot in it yet. I used Spriggan for two reasons: I didn't want to wear my Valkyrie down, and to keep the teeth constant, seeing as the rate at which Valkyrie's teeth wear down probably would have skewed my results toward whichever Disk I tested last (in this case Armed).

[Image: DiowsbT.png]
There seems to be a correlation between Disk weight and Burst Rate, with heavier Disks being more prone to Bursting and also skipping more teeth on average than lighter Disks. However, there also seems to be a reverse correlation between Disk weight and KO Rate, and although Armed was technically the least KOed Disk, counting the Burst/KO ties it was KOed a total of 9 times. This does seem to support the theory that Armed is the "hardest Disk to Burst" (at least, compared to more popular options in the current metagame) and may be a top choice for Burst Defense with the current ruling on KO/Burst ties. Despite this, I would still consider Spread to be the best for balancing traditional Defense and Burst Defense; my results show that it bursts significantly less than Heavy while still being KOed the same amount. In addition, Spread's shape offers far more LAD than Heavy's which will be useful for OSing opponents.
Dec. 27, 2015  12:07 AM
 
I like this thread. Helpful and educational. If you want more of those tests I can do them.
Dec. 27, 2015  9:26 AM
 
Thanks for this thread. Very informativeSmile
Dec. 27, 2015  9:34 AM
 
thanks for thread Wombat!, really helpful and educational.

not sure, but this thread may look better in beyblade general fourm
Dec. 27, 2015  5:14 PM
 
Great thread, Wombat!

From looking at the testings, it's clear that the lower the Burst rate, the higher the KO rate. Will you be doing any more testings it's different layers?

Also: could you please do Spriggan Heavy Accel against Wyvern Heavy Accel?
Dec. 27, 2015  5:31 PM
 
But, even if it reduce the Burst rate, you still have to take in consideration the defense/stamina.

Anyway, awesome thread sir.
Dec. 27, 2015  6:01 PM
 
Like everyone else; great thread. I'm sure we'll see more info pour into this with new releases.

Nice to have new sub-types for Attack and Defense now.
Dec. 27, 2015  6:23 PM
 
This is a really good thread - it starts to address how fundamentally important the burst aspect really is and how it can be taken forward!

I think most of the results you have presented are really interesting and informative. I just had one little thing though:

(Dec. 26, 2015  9:50 PM)Wombat Wrote: Weight: [...] In addition, a heavier Disk will push the spring-loaded tab on the Driver down further, slightly increasing the distance between it and the Layer teeth and effectively making the teeth "shorter".

I'm not sure this is true - the Layer pushes the tab further down than the Disk does once the Beyblade is assembled (if you pick up any assembled Burst Beyblade, you can move the Disk up and down: it's no longer acts on the spring-loaded tab/Driver at all, once the Layer is on). In any case, I would suggest that the weight differences between each of the Disks wouldn't affect the likelihood of bursting in the way that you are describing here, even if the Disk was in contact with the tabs. If the Disk was heavy enough to push the tabs down, the Beyblades would never burst. However, I'm definitely not doubting that different Disks will affect bursting rates in other ways!

I would speculate that one logical evolution of Beyblade Burst design is affecting how likely a Beyblade is to burst through its Driver, by making the springs inside the Driver more or less compressed, or changing the 'teeth' on the Driver in some way.
Dec. 27, 2015  10:57 PM
 
(Dec. 27, 2015  5:14 PM)Hato Wrote: Great thread, Wombat!

From looking at the testings, it's clear that the lower the Burst rate, the higher the KO rate. Will you be doing any more testings it's different layers?

Also: could you please do Spriggan Heavy Accel against Wyvern Heavy Accel?

Once I have Xcalibur and Xtreme, I probably will do more testing with those, probably against Odin. The reason I used Wyvern for this was because I didn't feel confident in my ability to consistently defeat OHD with Attack on my first day using the Stadium, so I intentionally went with a weaker opponent to show the difference in KOs and Bursts.

I can try Mobile Defense when I get back home, since I'm currently at my grandparents house.

(Dec. 27, 2015  6:23 PM)Serotonin Wrote: This is a really good thread - it starts to address how fundamentally important the burst aspect really is and how it can be taken forward!

I think most of the results you have presented are really interesting and informative. I just had one little thing though:

(Dec. 26, 2015  9:50 PM)Wombat Wrote: Weight: [...] In addition, a heavier Disk will push the spring-loaded tab on the Driver down further, slightly increasing the distance between it and the Layer teeth and effectively making the teeth "shorter".

I'm not sure this is true - the Layer pushes the tab further down than the Disk does once the Beyblade is assembled (if you pick up any assembled Burst Beyblade, you can move the Disk up and down: it's no longer acts on the spring-loaded tab/Driver at all, once the Layer is on). In any case, I would suggest that the weight differences between each of the Disks wouldn't affect the likelihood of bursting in the way that you are describing here, even if the Disk was in contact with the tabs. If the Disk was heavy enough to push the tabs down, the Beyblades would never burst. However, I'm definitely not doubting that different Disks will affect bursting rates in other ways!

I just checked this myself, and you're right, the Disk doesn't push down the tabs after the Beyblade is assembled. Maybe it has something to do with RPM; Heavy is a more Compact Disk while Spread and Ring are wider and have more outward weight distribution. @[1234beyblade] says that weak launching some combos can help you win matchups you wouldn't win otherwise, even in the absence of Left Spin, so maybe he can comment on this?

I don't quite understand what you mean when you say "If the Disk was heavy enough to push the tabs down, the Beyblades would never burst". Hypothetically, if the Disk was indeed heavy enough to push the tabs down, at least farther than the Layer could, then wouldn't the Beyblades Burst more often (based on that same theory about increasing the distance between the Layer teeth and Driver tabs that you disproved earlier)?
Dec. 28, 2015  12:04 AM
 
What I meant was, the only scenario in which the Disk could push the tabs down (ignoring the locking mechanism of the Layer) would be if the Disk exerted a downward force greater than the upward force exerted by the tabs.

If this were true, a) the Disk would probably weigh a huge amount and b) would stay on top of the tabs and the Driver would never be able to force the Disk off (i.e. bursting the Beyblade). Obviously there are a million other factors like the fact that it probably would disassemble itself if it was spinning once the Layer had bursted, but speaking from a purely weight-based point.

It's kind of moot because it's not a situation which is happening anyway!

I think the weak launching comment is interesting - I have also noticed that the Beyblades are less likely to burst at lower RPMs, but I don't have the testing or scientific knowledge to be able to explain it.
Dec. 28, 2015  12:29 AM
 
(Dec. 28, 2015  12:04 AM)Serotonin Wrote: I think the weak launching comment is interesting - I have also noticed that the Beyblades are less likely to burst at lower RPMs, but I don't have the testing or scientific knowledge to be able to explain it.

I'd second this.
I believe due to how fast the Beyblades spin during the beginning of the battle, they exert more force on each other which causes the clicks. However, if hand spun they would very rarely click, and most likely only click if a layer is prone to Bursting, such as Ragnaruk. An example match up; Deathscyther Spread Survive VS Wyvern Ring Accel, where Accel stalls instead of making contact, and by the time the two meet, they lost most of their spin, resulting it the two "tapping" each other lightly until one OS' the other. And usually if this happens to me, there is either 1 or zero clicks.
Dec. 28, 2015  7:01 AM
 
I'm pretty sure the law of inertia explains why heavier Disks are more prone to Bursting than lighter Disks. As it goes, "an object in motion tends to stay in motion," and as the object's mass increases, so does the amount of force required to change its velocity.
[Image: uOAcXA2.gif]

In the case of Heavy vs Wing, Heavy better maintains its angular velocity than Wing due to its greater mass, and since the Disk's angular velocity is always transferred to the Driver, when two Beyblades make significant contact, this results in more "damage" being taken by the Beyblade as a whole, which translates to teeth in the Layer being skipped over by the Driver's little tabs.


tl;dr - Heavier Disks = more inertia = easier Bursts // Lighter Disks = less inertia = harder Bursts
Dec. 28, 2015  7:17 AM
 
But less weight = more KOs obviously. I think the goal now is to find a sweet spot where both can be avoided with relative similarity.
Dec. 28, 2015  8:05 PM
 
That's why I don't hate Edge as much as everyone else. I've put it through a few battles, and yea it wobbles a lot. But Bursting it is a different story.
Dec. 30, 2015  10:00 PM
 
Don't have anything to add right now, but just wanted to express how great of a thread this is, Wombat. Really fascinating data that I think is going to affect how a lot of people approach the game.
Dec. 30, 2015  10:28 PM
 
(Dec. 26, 2015  9:50 PM)Wombat Wrote: and that this was my first day using the Burst Stadium and I didn't quite get the heck of the Sliding Shoot in it yet.

And here I was so happy that you were getting low win percentages with the Attack type too hahah.

Might I suggest a more elegant expression than "Average Clicks Lost" ? Since you cannot really lose clicks. "Average Teeth Skipped" ?


The Beyblade Burst metagame really tears me : it is exciting that it has so many different options of things to do and things to counter, but this just reinforces that you go into battle totally blind and hope that you picked the right type of combination in rock-paper-scissors ...
Dec. 31, 2015  12:05 AM
 
OP has been updated!
  • Changed most (if not all) instances of clicks/Average Clicks Lost to tooth/teeth/Average Teeth Skipped
  • Removed the part about the Disk pushing down the Driver tabs
  • Added some information about RPM/Spin Velocity
  • Added Central tests

Central kinda threw a wrench in my original results... Maybe it has a bad weight distribution (being more centralized than Spread or Ring) which increases RPM and makes it Burst more (this is just a theory).
I still don't gave a good grasp on the whole relationship between RPM/Spin Velocity and Bursting to be honest. Angry Face explained some of it, but it doesn't explain how "a low-spin Valkyrie can defeat a high-spin Odin where a high-spin Valkyrie cannot" (as 1234beyblade claims), especially since Odin has substantially lower recoil than Valkyrie.
Dec. 31, 2015  1:05 AM
 
(Dec. 31, 2015  12:05 AM)Wombat Wrote: I still don't gave a good grasp on the whole relationship between RPM/Spin Velocity and Bursting to be honest. Angry Face explained some of it, but it doesn't explain how "a low-spin Valkyrie can defeat a high-spin Odin where a high-spin Valkyrie cannot" (as 1234beyblade claims), especially since Odin has substantially lower recoil than Valkyrie.

Oh, well inertia increases with angular velocity, so the faster your top is spinning, the faster its Layer's teeth will skip the stud on the Driver when it takes a hard blow from the direction opposite of its spin. By the same concept, the slower your top's spinning, the less inertia the Disk and Driver have to skip the Layer's teeth. This is the reason why faster spinning Beyblade Burst tops often Burst when you catch them by the Layer than when they're spinning slower.
Jan. 05, 2016  10:58 AM
 
Does noone palm stop their tops? Surely by pressing down ever so slightly it'd be super easy to keep the bey together?
Jan. 05, 2016  2:20 PM
 
(Jan. 05, 2016  10:58 AM)Dracomageat Wrote: Does noone palm stop their tops? Surely by pressing down ever so slightly it'd be super easy to keep the bey together?

I always did that in MFB until I did it with Kreis Cygus and hurt like hell (the free spinning mode), ouch!

Oh and Thermal Lacerta.
Jan. 05, 2016  2:32 PM
 
thanks for this thread
Jan. 05, 2016  2:41 PM
 
(Jan. 05, 2016  10:58 AM)Dracomageat Wrote: Does noone palm stop their tops? Surely by pressing down ever so slightly it'd be super easy to keep the bey together?

Have you tried it? The Bey will burst instantly unless it's going very slowly. Putting two fingers under the disk and picking it up usually works best for me.
Jan. 25, 2016  6:17 PM
 
pretty interesting thread wombat! I think probably test myself to see it in action and may be help to fullfill some datas
Jan. 25, 2016  6:31 PM
 
Wow. Thanks for the info. Now I have no worries about my beyblade.
Feb. 12, 2016  9:50 AM
 
So this is sort of a follow up from this one post from the Tier List thread:
(Feb. 08, 2016  7:20 AM)Wombat Wrote: *I think Xcalibur Heavy Xtreme is a KO Attack Type, but I know others have been able to Burst opponents consistently with it, while I can't seem to do that for some reason. I think Valkyrie Force Xtreme and Amaterios Heavy Xtreme are hybrid Burst/KO Attackers but I can't really support that claim.

Similarly I think the Heavy Defense setups are more KO Defense oriented while Armed Claw setups are more Burst Defense oriented. Heavy Claw seems to be the Balance between the two and Armed Defense hasn't been tried as far as I know.
It's also a much needed update featuring tests using the Xtreme Driver. Since Odin is now banned and I don't own Neptune I used Wyvern for my Defense Layer.

Conditions: (Click to View)

Xcalibur Heavy Xtreme (KO Attack) vs. Wyvern Heavy Defense (KO Defense)
XHX: 9 wins (7 KO, 2 BF)
WHD: 11 wins (2 KO, 5 OS, 4 BF)
3 ties (2 DBF, 1 DKO) redone
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Wyvern win rate: 55%
Burst Rate: 22.22% (10%)
KO Rate: 77.77% (35%)
Average Teeth Skipped: 1.9

Xcalibur Heavy Xtreme (KO Attack) vs. Wyvern Armed Claw (Burst Defense)
XHX: 12 wins (all KO)
WAC: 8 wins (1 KO, 3 OS, 4 BF)
3 ties (2 DBF, 1 DSF) redone
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Wyvern win rate: 40%
Burst Rate: 0% (0%)
KO Rate: 100% (60%)
Average Teeth Skipped: 1.1

Valkyrie Force Xtreme (Burst/KO Hybrid? Attack) vs. Wyvern Heavy Defense (KO Defense)
VFX: 11 wins (4 KO, 7 BF)
WHD: 9 wins (2 KO, 7 OS)
1 tie (DKO) redone
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Wyvern win rate: 45%
Burst Rate: 63.63% (35%)
KO Rate: 36.36% (20%)
Average Teeth Skipped: 2.8

Valkyrie Force Xtreme (Burst/KO Hybrid? Attack) vs. Wyvern Armed Claw (Burst Defense)
VFX: 8 wins (6 KO, 2 BF)
WAC: 12 wins (1 KO, 9 OS, 2 BF)
2 ties (both DBF) redone
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Wyvern win rate: 60%
Burst Rate: 25% (10%)
KO Rate: 75% (30%)
Average Teeth Skipped: 1.75

To avoid skewing the Valkyrie tests as much as possible, I alternated the opponent every round but still recorded the results separately. So the first battle was VFX vs. WHD, the second was VFX vs. WAC, the third was VFX vs. WHD, etc.
Analysis
[Image: 1R4QfKT.png]
From my experience Xcalibur Heavy Xtreme seems to be almost a pure KO Attack Type (other users have gotten it to Burst stuff consistently but I can't for whatever reason) while Valkyrie Force Xtreme seems to be a hybrid between Burst Attack and KO Attack.

VFX generally defeated its opponent using whichever method it was weakest to, KOing the lighter Wyvern Armed Claw and Bursting the heavier Wyvern Heavy Defense. However, I believe the majority of VFX's ability to KO opponents comes from the Xtreme Driver. In the past I know at least Kei has mentioned that KOs were much rarer than BFs using Valkyrie ____ Accel. Valkyrie was also able to make both opponents skip more Teeth than Xcalibur.

Of the 21 battles XHX won, 19 were from KOs. While it didn't take advantage of its opponents' weaknesses like VFX did, it is worth noting that XHX was much better at KOing KO Defense than VFX was at Bursting Burst Defense.

It's difficult to say which is more useful in a tournament setting, especially with the prevalence of Wyvern Heavy Claw (which I would assume to be a hybrid Burst/KO Defense Type). Maybe due to VF/HX being more popular than XHX Defense players haven't felt the need to run Heavy Defense as the extra KO Defense is not worth the increased chance of Bursting vs. VFX.

At this point, I would definitely classify Xtreme as a KO Attack Driver, but I'm still hesitant to call Accel, assault, or Zephyr Burst Attack Drivers. Maybe someone could test VFX vs. WAC and then compare it to VF/H A/a/Z to see if using a plastic Driver will actually result in more Bursts.

RIP Orange Valk 2015-2016
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