Bandid Genbull F230TB draft

Poll: How's the draft?

Amazing!!! You're a genius!
39.29%
11
Great!
35.71%
10
Good
10.71%
3
Eh, not too great
14.29%
4
It's horrible... just... no (Tired)
0%
0
Total: 100% 28 vote(s)
^Thank you!

We can't be sure... we can make guesses based on our observations, but things like this are ultimately indeterminable, and our conclusions are, therefore, far from completely certain.

That was a perfect explanation. Smile Kudos to you my friend.

I was told that anything that was not completely certain was unacceptable, but as I see it, this article requires a bit of guesswork if we want to explain certain things.

How about this for an addition to the draft?

Is there anyone reason you put Revizer Genbull E230 for defense instead of Genbull Genbull E230?
(Oct. 03, 2013  2:11 AM)theblackdragon Wrote: ^Thank you!

We can't be sure... we can make guesses based on our observations, but things like this are ultimately indeterminable, and our conclusions are, therefore, far from completely certain.

That was a perfect explanation. Smile Kudos to you my friend.

I was told that anything that was not completely certain was unacceptable, but as I see it, this article requires a bit of guesswork if we want to explain certain things.

How about this for an addition to the draft?

You thank him for essentially telling you that it is probably the centre of gravity ? Besides telling me that it is almost impossible to be certain it is that factor, basically the rest of Insomniac's post is telling you to drop the arguement and understand what I have been writing all along because that is all that can be done to observe any explanation ... Yes, you have been telling me all this time that it is not certain, but you have also clearly been against accepting that it is or could indeed be the centre of gravity ...


About your updated draft, those combination descriptions are really not enough at all. You need to thoroughly explain why those parts together work well and how the customization behaves.
(Oct. 03, 2013  2:11 AM)theblackdragon Wrote: We can't be sure... we can make guesses based on our observations, but things like this are ultimately indeterminable, and our conclusions are, therefore, far from completely certain.

[...]

I was told that anything that was not completely certain was unacceptable, but as I see it, this article requires a bit of guesswork if we want to explain certain things.

Without testing, we can see clearly:

> Duo overhangs its Track
> Genbull Genbull does not overhang its Track
> Duo and Genbull Genbull are not the same Wheel

From these simple, yet undeniable, observations, I'd like to say it's conclusive that Duo and Genbull Genbull have different centers of gravity as a result of the aforementioned contrasting physical properties. (Click to View)

Additionally, I find it highly probable that if Duo and Genbull Genbull are not the same Wheel, and thus do not share the same shape, then they must have different distributions of weight. (Click to View)


While attributes are usually, and should be, tested to make observations when practical, not all attributes necessarily have to be tested to be observed, as in the cases above.


But this is just my logic.
Yes, you can definitely see those types of things, because they are visible.

Mathematically, it's quite obvious that the center of gravity, weight, aerodynamics, and contact points have shifted.

You just don't know which of those shifts is causing the combo to work. Wink
Yes, you can indirectly know that; that is what Insomniac had said in his previous post ...
Woah woah woah... What?? Excuse me?

I didn't say I thought it wasn't the center of gravity! In fact:

theblackdragon Wrote:I think that center of gravity is probably the most prominent possibility.

theblackdragon Wrote:I could believe that it's the center of gravity... that's a really good guess, but it's not a definite fact.

theblackdragon Wrote:I can give you several theoretical explanations (like center of gravity), but I can't be sure if they are true or not

You just completely changed your stance on the issue... I have not once said that I am opposed to center of gravity as the cause. I just said there is no way to know for sure.

You said that you were sure it was the center of gravity:

Kai-V Wrote:Obviously, what these solo spin tests tell is that the centre of gravity is just right when TH170 (170) or SR200 are used

Kai-V Wrote:Weight, weight distribution and height are all just factors toward centre of gravity, in this case. The only thing that could be an actual stand-alone other explanation out of what you listed is aerodynamics, but since we are not talking about Tracks (that was the only variable) that are way different like W145 versus 145, I doubt, with my experience as a natural sciences student and from my observations, that this is the explanation. The phenomenon is a vertical one, not really a horizontal one, although SP230 or something huge at 170, 200 or 220 heights would most likely make a difference.

Kai-V Wrote:The real question is why would it not be that ... All you have done up until now is claim that it could be aerodynamics, factors towards centre of gravity, centre of gravity, or some other phenomenon which could be complementary to centre of gravity ... I am not certain what else could be observed from a top that remains in the centre, even during battle.

From the beginning:

You stated that the effectiveness of these combos comes from the center of gravity provided by TH170/SR200.

I said that that was a very good answer, but we still can't be sure if it is true or not... which is exactly what you said in the above post.

With all due respect, you just completely contradicted yourself. :\

Can we please be done with this and get on to editing the article? What would you put in to explain the phenomena?
Finally, we're back on track!
(Oct. 03, 2013  8:35 PM)Striker Phantom Wrote: Finally, we're back on track!

Was there a reason for this post other than boosting your count?

Anyways, why don't we just say,"because of the center of gravity, and excellent height provided by the track?"
Well, first of all, add in Kai-V's edits, but anyways:

==Use in Stamina customization==
'''Genbull Genbull SR200TB/CS''' and '''Genbull Genbull TH170TB''' are two top-tier combinations that excel in Stamina. CS and TB succeed in providing the balance of grip and great endurance required to deliver all of Genbull's potential, and SR200 and TH170 provide the perfect center of gravity for the combo, as well as an excellent height for destabilizing taller opponents and force smashing?(Does Genbull have force smash?) lower opponents.
(Oct. 03, 2013  10:53 PM)ShinobuXD Wrote: Well, first of all, add in Kai-V's edits, but anyways:

==Use in Stamina customization==
'''Genbull Genbull SR200TB/CS''' and '''Genbull Genbull TH170TB''' are two top-tier combinations that excel in Stamina. CS and TB succeed in providing the balance of grip and great endurance required to deliver all of Genbull's potential, and SR200 and TH170 provide the perfect center of gravity for the combo, as well as an excellent height for destabilizing taller opponents and force smashing?(Does Genbull have force smash?) lower opponents.

Doesn't D/SD/PD work with Genbull*2 TH170? Anyway, my point of the last post was that TBD finally had finally made a turn in the thread, because not for nothin, there's a Phenomenon Thread.
Oh no, Genbull's got nothing for force-smash. :\ That's why I prefer Gryph Dragooon F230CF in Zero-G over Genbull Dragooon. It's got all the bad recoil, without all the good smash.
(Oct. 03, 2013  4:47 PM)theblackdragon Wrote: Woah woah woah... What?? Excuse me?

I didn't say I thought it wasn't the center of gravity! In fact:

theblackdragon Wrote:I think that center of gravity is probably the most prominent possibility.

theblackdragon Wrote:I could believe that it's the center of gravity... that's a really good guess, but it's not a definite fact.

theblackdragon Wrote:I can give you several theoretical explanations (like center of gravity), but I can't be sure if they are true or not

You just completely changed your stance on the issue... I have not once said that I am opposed to center of gravity as the cause. I just said there is no way to know for sure.

You said that you were sure it was the center of gravity:

Kai-V Wrote:Obviously, what these solo spin tests tell is that the centre of gravity is just right when TH170 (170) or SR200 are used

Kai-V Wrote:Weight, weight distribution and height are all just factors toward centre of gravity, in this case. The only thing that could be an actual stand-alone other explanation out of what you listed is aerodynamics, but since we are not talking about Tracks (that was the only variable) that are way different like W145 versus 145, I doubt, with my experience as a natural sciences student and from my observations, that this is the explanation. The phenomenon is a vertical one, not really a horizontal one, although SP230 or something huge at 170, 200 or 220 heights would most likely make a difference.

Kai-V Wrote:The real question is why would it not be that ... All you have done up until now is claim that it could be aerodynamics, factors towards centre of gravity, centre of gravity, or some other phenomenon which could be complementary to centre of gravity ... I am not certain what else could be observed from a top that remains in the centre, even during battle.

From the beginning:

You stated that the effectiveness of these combos comes from the center of gravity provided by TH170/SR200.

I said that that was a very good answer, but we still can't be sure if it is true or not... which is exactly what you said in the above post.

With all due respect, you just completely contradicted yourself. :\

Can we please be done with this and get on to editing the article? What would you put in to explain the phenomena?

Actually, your first two replies to my post that contained the solo spin test results and my conclusion were attacks toward this conclusion and discrediting it from the beginning as just an assumption. If you cannot accept it since the beginning, then yes, you are against it, and you even replied to me using those words at the start : "I'm against it because [...]".
I was discrediting it as an assumption because that's what it was, and you refused to accept it.

theblackdragon Wrote:
Kai-V Wrote:Obviously, what these solo spin tests tell is that the centre of gravity is just right when TH170 (170) or SR200 are used, whereas any other heights are either way too low that it scrapes, or too high that it cannot remain balanced by itself.
How do you know it's the center of gravity? With a track change, you've altered the height, weight, aerodynamics, and weight distribution. You are making an assumption. You cannot be sure that what you are saying is true.

I was not against it, I was just pointing out that we didn't know for sure if it was causing Duo/Genbull's performance or not:

theblackdragon Wrote:I have not once said that I am opposed to center of gravity as the cause. I just said there is no way to know for sure.

We need to stop this. It's getting out of hand. If we want to put in something like an explanation of a part's performance, then that's fine (duh... you can do whatever you want XD) but the fact is that it's still an assumption and it'll require a bit of guesswork.
Just a general question since I have made a connection with your lack of description for the Customization suggestions : do you actually understand why parts work together well, or do you just stumble on combinations that do well ?
With all due respect, Personal attacks are unnecessary...

I've tried as hard as possible to contribute to this community as best I can since I joined 8 months ago, and suggesting that I am under qualified for such an undertaking is extremely offensive. Unhappy

Other users here can testify that my work is not simply based on random guessing, and that I'm perfectly capable of explaining myself and the concept and behaviors of a Beyblade custom.

Please stop; please. Unhappy
It is not really a personal attack ... Plus, contributing to the site is not at all always associated with having a clear understanding of why parts work well together : those are two different concepts that only rarely come together.


You were not there when Flame Byxis 230WD was released, but would you have understood/found out that the reason 230 was unexpectedly good is because the other Beyblades used to hit it directly in its centre of gravity ?
Well, that's a good guess, but I actually wouldn't, for a couple reasons:

1. After 230's release, it completely crushed stamina customs from all heights (85-145). Center of gravity has linear measurement, and, therefore, the center of gravity cannot range between a range of 6 millimeters, so not all combos hit it "right in its center of gravity", and yet it won against them all.

2. 230's ability to out-spin low-to-mid track stamina customs with consistency will still prevail when paired with higher bottoms, and Metal Wheels that extend higher or lower beyond the track itself. Basalt 230CS and Duo 230D theoretically have centers of gravity offset by multiple millimeters, and yet both dominated mid-height stamina customs in testing.

Center of gravity is a huge factor when playing around with the height of a custom, and as such, it would only be natural to assume that it does play a significant role in something as drastically differentiated in height as 230, but for the reasons stated above I am inclined to believe that there are separate factors working with center of gravity (IE low recoil [success against 85] and overall height as a shape alteration [IE Duo ability to "force grind" on 230MB]) to produce such an impressive performance as we see in 230 stamina customs.

See? I can make observations too. Wink
OK, but that proves my point about centre of gravity being a factor and one of the main ones.
(Oct. 09, 2013  3:27 AM)Kai-V Wrote: OK, but that proves my point about centre of gravity being a factor and one of the main ones.

Yes, center of gravity is most likely one of the main factors. I already said that. I just stated that you don't know for sure if center of gravity is the primary cause.

But, you can obviously still put it in the article. Tongue_out
What about the section for Bandid, and wheres genbull Dragooon?
(Oct. 09, 2013  3:23 PM)AZL Wrote: What about the section for Bandid, and wheres genbull Dragooon?

There's no bandid on the front page (I still haven't put the current draft up there), but it's in the edition on the last page. Smile

As for Genbull Dragooon, it has never been tested. EVER. :\ It does great in tournament from what I've heard/seen, but there simply isn't any testing for it yet. IDK, I just don't think we should add something like that just yet.
When my RBV3 comes in and early college apps are done, I plan on changing that. Wink

Regardless, if it's competitive enough to get dropped on the Advanced Forum Competitive Combo list I see no reason not to put it on.
Can you guys please take this theories thing to PMs, please?!?