Bandid Genbull F230TB draft

Poll: How's the draft?

Amazing!!! You're a genius!
37.04%
10
Great!
37.04%
10
Good
11.11%
3
Eh, not too great
14.81%
4
It's horrible... just... no (Tired)
0%
0
Total: 100% 27 vote(s)
(Sep. 18, 2013  12:58 PM)Kai-V Wrote: It looks like you forgot your own draft :
Quote:==Use in Stamina customization==
Genbull Genbull/Duo Aquario SR200/TH170TB

What was to be evaluated is TB, not Genbull, since that was in the Bottom section. If you are comfortable with placing Genbull Genbull on the same plateau as Duo Aquario because you separated them with a dash, then the effect and their performance should be rather similar.

And yes, I own two Genbull.


And what do weight and height change ? The centre of gravity too. I am not certain why you are so against it ...

I was speaking of Genbull's synergy with SR200/TH170... although they both work well on similar setups, Genbull does have a significantly different (higher) center of gravity than Duo, as well as a different height and different weight distribution, diameter, etc. so in a solo-spin test they'll probably act much differently.

So, in a nutshell, they both work great, but they're quite a bit different IMO. :\

Quote:Obviously, what these solo spin tests tell is that the centre of gravity is just right when TH170 (170) or SR200 are used, whereas any other heights are either way too low that it scrapes, or too high that it cannot remain balanced by itself.

You were addressing the tracks themselves in the post... not TB.

I'm against it because I want people who read this article to be able to read accurate, rock-solid information completely void of assumptions so that they don't have to go through testing to evaluate whether it's true or not.

Again, I believe observations can be made, but as I stated before, there is nothing anywhere near "Obvious" that explains why the parts work, and stating that it's the center of gravity, weight, aerodynamics, weight distribution, etc. just based on watching it spin by itself in the stadium is not accurate IMO. It's an assumption.
I'm not sure why there's an argument; yes, solo-spins don't hold as much weight as battles, but in this case the results of the solo spins happen to exactly mirror what happens in battle:

(Sep. 15, 2013  5:18 PM)Kai-V Wrote: Obviously, what these solo spin tests tell is that the centre of gravity is just right when TH170 (170) or SR200 are used, whereas any other heights are either way too low that it scrapes, or too high that it cannot remain balanced by itself.

This is true; TB is most effectively used with SR200 or TH170. I see nothing wrong here, lol
That's the point... I wasn't talking about whether TB, SR200/TH170 and Genbull work well together or not, I was talking about why they work better than other conventional stamina alternatives in unison with each other.

There are already tests confirming that these parts work well together. The community already has evidence for that... I'm saying that there is no way to know what physical property (ie. weight, weight distribution, center of gravity, overall height, movement pattern, aerodynamics, etc.) is causing Genbull, SR200/TH170, and TB to perform so well together.

I could believe that it's the center of gravity... that's a really good guess, but it's not a definite fact. :\

About solo-spin times (which is really kinda irrelevant to the discussion, but what the heck right? XD), opinions obviously differ a lot, but IMO solo-spin time determines very, very, very little about a combo's competitive ability.

For instance, Duo Aquario 230D is gonna spin waaaaaay longer, and have much more visible balance and smoother precession than Genbull SR200TB in a solo-spin test, but Genbull will win against it in an actual match. See what I mean? And sure the solo-spin times here happen to fit relatively well with formal test results (at least concerning which tracks to use), but that is very rarely the case in my experience.

Again, you guys are like geniuses (and mods for that matter) and I mean no disrespect... you can totally just do your thing, and I'm in no position to tell you otherwise, but this is my opinion and I'm a bit uncomfortable putting an unconfirmed assumption in an encyclopedia. Confused
Do you think there should be an article about centres of gravity?
(Sep. 19, 2013  7:15 PM)theblackdragon Wrote: That's the point... I wasn't talking about whether TB, SR200/TH170 and Genbull work well together or not, I was talking about why they work better than other conventional stamina alternatives in unison with each other.

There are already tests confirming that these parts work well together. The community already has evidence for that... I'm saying that there is no way to know what physical property (ie. weight, weight distribution, center of gravity, overall height, movement pattern, aerodynamics, etc.) is causing Genbull, SR200/TH170, and TB to perform so well together.

I could believe that it's the center of gravity... that's a really good guess, but it's not a definite fact. :\

About solo-spin times (which is really kinda irrelevant to the discussion, but what the heck right? XD), opinions obviously differ a lot, but IMO solo-spin time determines very, very, very little about a combo's competitive ability.

For instance, Duo Aquario 230D is gonna spin waaaaaay longer, and have much more visible balance and smoother precession than Genbull SR200TB in a solo-spin test, but Genbull will win against it in an actual match. See what I mean? And sure the solo-spin times here happen to fit relatively well with formal test results (at least concerning which tracks to use), but that is very rarely the case in my experience.

Again, you guys are like geniuses (and mods for that matter) and I mean no disrespect... you can totally just do your thing, and I'm in no position to tell you otherwise, but this is my opinion and I'm a bit uncomfortable putting an unconfirmed assumption in an encyclopedia. Confused

Weight, weight distribution and height are all just factors toward centre of gravity, in this case. The only thing that could be an actual stand-alone other explanation out of what you listed is aerodynamics, but since we are not talking about Tracks (that was the only variable) that are way different like W145 versus 145, I doubt, with my experience as a natural sciences student and from my observations, that this is the explanation. The phenomenon is a vertical one, not really a horizontal one, although SP230 or something huge at 170, 200 or 220 heights would most likely make a difference.
Well to kinda jump in here, center of gravity probably plays a part, but so does height of the MWs. Where does Genbull Genbull SR200 TB sit on Duo 230 D? Does it have the right height to hit just under Duo in some circumstances? Or does it have the height to force smash Duo W145 WD?
Yes, in battles; things that theblackdragon could have observed in his tests.
(Oct. 01, 2013  3:21 AM)Kai-V Wrote: Yes, in battles; things that theblackdragon could have observed in his tests.

Ah... exactly. Alteration of contact points is yet another variable that cannot be observed during a solo-spin test.

Quote:Weight, weight distribution and height are all just factors toward centre of gravity, in this case. The only thing that could be an actual stand-alone other explanation out of what you listed is aerodynamics, but since we are not talking about Tracks (that was the only variable) that are way different like W145 versus 145, I doubt, with my experience as a natural sciences student and from my observations, that this is the explanation.

Weight also reduces/increases rotational recoil, recoil, smash, stamina, traction, etc., which are all completely unobservable during a solo-spin test. Height, as ShinobuXD stated, alters the points of contact which the beyblade can utilize against its opponent; also completely unobservable during a solo-spin test.

I will grant you that weight distribution factors solely into center of gravity, though. XD I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that...

Aerodynamics always play a role... whatever the situation. SR200 and TH170 do have different aerodynamic properties. It does matter. Plus, we were talking about TH170/SR200 vs. other stamina tracks, like W145, which has a wildly different shape than TH170 or SR200. Therefore, the aerodynamics are an undeniable possible reason for Genbull/TB's cooperation with these tracks



Solo-spin testing excludes several variables that can only be observed through testing against a physical opponent, and is therefore, IMO, a very unreliable way to explain certain properties of different parts.

^I'm really sorry, but that is my honest opinion on this. If you can prove to me that solo-spin testing includes every single variable present in competition with another beyblade, then I'll change my mind.
Can you tell me some stuff about W145's aerodynamic properties?
(Oct. 01, 2013  8:45 PM)Striker Phantom Wrote: Can you tell me some stuff about W145's aerodynamic properties?

Yet another property that is completely unobservable... so no, not really. XD

However, we can assume that they are beneficial, seeing as W145 totally stomps on 145.
Clearly my solo spin tests were able to demonstrate at least one of the phenomena which explain the synergy ... I am not certain how you do not acknowledge that, and it still does not excuse that you were not able to observe anything relevant from your own battle tests.
Height destabilization is easily observable... all you need to do is line them up and say,"hey, when part x wobbles slightly, part z can get right under it for easy destabilization."
Exactly ... You can just lie down and look at the Beyblades directly from their height, on the side.
Kai-V: With all due respect, I didn't say that the solo-spin tests weren't able to determine anything related to the beyblade's behavior... I'm saying that you can't use those observations to explain why it works in a battle because it isn't a battle. Beyblades will behave differently in a solo-spin test because you have removed several variables

I already explained this... and I never claimed that solo-spin tests were totally irrelevant. I just said that they're very close to it, and that they should not be used to explain the behavior of certain parts just because you want to sound more professional. :\

As for height destabilization, you don't even have to spin it... obviously a taller beyblade will hit a shorter beyblade when it wobbles because it's taller.

Also, you can't observe which of the two will be destabilized (something only observable in a match) and all you know is that when one part wobbles (which may occur earlier or later during an actual match... yet another unobservable variable) the beyblades will make contact at an angle; you have no certainty what result that will yield without seeing it actually hit something.

theblackdragon Wrote:Solo-spin testing excludes several variables that can only be observed through testing against a physical opponent, and is therefore, IMO, a very unreliable way to explain certain properties of different parts.

^I'm really sorry, but that is my honest opinion on this. If you can prove to me that solo-spin testing includes every single variable present in competition with another beyblade, then I'll change my mind.

I stand by my opinion.

Kai-V in the Bakushin Beelzeb draft thread Wrote:Not at all. You have no idea how much testing the Members of the World Beyblade Organization do. What you do is basically just one percent of the knowledge that determines a part's worth. This is why Beywiki is so accurate (besides the outdated things that were not updated yet; they were super accurate at the time of their publication).

And no, that better be a huge bad joke : watching a Beyblade solo spin determines NOTHING.

I don't know why you think that watching a beyblade spin by itself in a stadium can determine the exact property which causes the part to perform in a specific way... especially when you yourself claimed that it "determines nothing" and is only "one percent" of the knowledge required.

With my utmost respect, You're not quite making sense to me here... Confused

I would like to just mention that the part works well, and just continue editing the draft.
I Think you can observe when a combo wobbles compared to others timing wise ...
Obviously that past comment has exceptions, but it seems more hostile than anything else of you to go back and find such a message when you have yet to provide any sort of advanced explanation on your own and that I was able, through my knowledge of physics, to observe a phenomenon through solo spin tests, which not all Bladers can do at all. Solo spin tests obviously do not include all the variables, but clearly the effectiveness of the centre of gravity is one of the things that can be evaluated with such a mean when the results correlate the results obtained via battle tests.
By the way, that comment was particularly about a Metal Wheel and Clear Wheel, and this is obviously different because we are talking about a Stamina type here, not an Attack type.

theblackdragon Wrote:I would like to just mention that the part works well, and just continue editing the draft.
This is not sufficient in any way, and there is nothing to continue editing if you cannot understand or even observe why a part works better than another.
Actually i believe Serious bladers should own two or multipules Genbulls.

If you want to know why it because the F230 it the same idea buying several Galaxy/Storm Pegasus for RF/R2F. When it wears out it doesn't work as much as it should be, which tells you that you need a new one....
Kai-V: I apologize if I sounded hostile at all. I didn't mean to... Confused

On the subject of explaining a phenomenon through observation:

From what I see, no, you can't explain the phenomena. I can't explain it. no one can explain it. Because it is unobservable. You can't see what is making the beyblade do what it does because center of gravity, areodynamics, etc. etc. are not visible qualities... they are measurements. You cannot see them.

On the subject of solo-spin testing:

I don't know what you mean... you can't explain away your previous statement except by saying that you have changed your mind. You said that solo-spin testing is unreliable. Now you're saying that it is reliable for stamina types and not attack types? Did I miss something? :\

Are you really telling me that you are the only one with the ability to determine through solo-spin testing, and that you can be completely sure of something just by watching it spin by itself? I can give you an explanation... I can give you several theoretical explanations, but I can't be sure if they are true or not because there's not another beyblade in the stadium! Even with another beyblade in the stadium I can only theorize... I can't be sure if what I'm saying is true becasue there is no way to measure it.

I can observe just as much as you can... I just acknowledge the fact that solo-spin testing is not enough to determine an absolute factual behavior that a beyblade performs in battle that should be recorded in an encyclopedia.

ginga: So? Does that help explain anything much? Sure it might be able to provide a believable explanation for some things, but just the fact that a beyblade starts wobbling before another with nothing else in the stadium is not nearly enough to determine that TH170 provides Genbull with an optimal center of gravity on TB. You have no way of knowing that.

@Stars: I believe (and someone correct me if this is wrong) that the orange F230 was shown to have much less (if any) problem with wear... mine certainly doesn't from what I can see. I think it was the mold from Saramanda that wore out really easily... but I don't have a brown one to compare, so. XD

EDIT: I can put it in there if you'd like, but I clearly remember you and *Ginga* calling me out earlier for putting an uncertainty in the draft. I mentioned TB's movement pattern and suggested that it may be an explanation for Genbull's performance, but you told me that something that wasn't absolutely certain was unacceptable. :\

EDIT#2: OK, I just had an idea. you know what, who else here thinks that watching Duo SR200 TB spin by itself in the stadium shows that it's center of gravity is perfect when used with SR200/TH170 or that we can be certain of the cause of a beyblade's performance just by watching it?

Opinions?
Well, in Cannon's tests, orange actually got a tenth of a second better after being used.

I've only had my brown for a few days but it does seem to wear quickly.
That's what I thought too... my orange doesn't seem to ware at all. I've been using it excessively for months and it's still smoother than my B : D. Tongue_out I think that's already been adressed in the article...

If Hasbro comes out with Bandid Genbull, and the F230 is anywhere near as good then we should probably reccommend getting 2.
Anyone with minimal knowledge in physics would be able to do the same observations I did. Apparently you do not have this ability though, which is why I mention me only being able ...

And no, you apparently cannot observe as well because from the beginning you keep telling me that you have no idea what happens, SR200/TH170 "just do better" with TB.
You are using circular reasoning...

You are literally saying "You must not be smart enough to do this, because you have not come to the conclusion I have", and then saying "You have not come to the conclusion I have, because you are not smart enough to do this."

You're basing your argument off the fact that you're right and I'm wrong. I have observed the same things you have. I am just not being as quick to draw conclusions from what I have seen.

If I may, I'd like to ask you something... How do you know for a fact that the shift in center of gravity that you have observed in your test is what is causing this custom to perform so well in a stamina match?
How can you even claim that you have observed the same things I have when all your previous posts were saying is that the parts just did better, for no reason ?

The real question is why would it not be that ... All you have done up until now is claim that it could be aerodynamics, factors towards centre of gravity, centre of gravity, or some other phenomenon which could be complementary to centre of gravity ... I am not certain what else could be observed from a top that remains in the centre, even during battle.
You still have not answered my question... how do you know it's the center of gravity?

And that is not what I have been saying, and you know it. Could you please stop making me out to be ignorant? My argument makes sense:

Of course there is a reason... it's Newton's 3rd law. I just claimed that I do not know for sure what that reason is even after making observations, and neither do you. Because you cannot prove it just from watching the beyblade spin and/or battle. You need a means of measuring which attribute the part is altering that is causing the custom to work, which you don't have. :\

I understand that the center of gravity has shifted, and I understand that you can observe the beyblade's behavior during a solo-spin test to some degree, but there are many possibilities to what is causing TH170/SR200 to work well with these customs, like aerodynamics, height (which does not only alter the center of gravity. It changes the points of contact, the angle at which the beyblade can wobble, etc) and overall weight (which does not change the center of gravity. weight itself simply makes the beyblade heavier. Weight distribution alters the center of gravity).

Here I have listed Aerodynamics, weight, and height/shape, which do not factor solely to center of gravity. They change many other things. You can't claim that they only factor to center of gravity because that is not true.

You cannot be sure that it is not one of these variables that is causing these things to happen.

Now, I really, really really don't want to seem hostile or disrespectful, and, again, I think that center of gravity is probably the most prominent possibility. Confused But, again, you still have not answered my question... how do you know it's the center of gravity?
(Oct. 02, 2013  9:53 PM)theblackdragon Wrote: You still have not answered my question... how do you know it's the center of gravity?

[...]

Now, I really, really really don't want to seem hostile or disrespectful, and, again, I think that center of gravity is probably the most prominent possibility. Confused But, again, you still have not answered my question... how do you know it's the center of gravity?

As we're all well aware, MFBs' Metal Wheels' primary weight distributions and centers of gravity cannot be altered, which consequently makes the direct measurement of these variables especially difficult, borderline impossible.

So seems to be the problem here, where we cannot definitively identify the precise contributing factor(s) that allow Genbull's Stamina to excel at TH170 on TB.

In cases such as this, in my opinion, the only way for us to draw conclusions is to make indirect observations of these unmeasurable qualities through the direct results of other tests, such as various members' testing and observing the visible behavior of a combination throughout its rotation (i.e. during solo-spin tests, various mirror battles, etc.), with which we can use to explain the phenomena in question.

Essentially, if a variable cannot be tested or observed directly by itself, there's most always another, albeit indirect, way to test or observe the variable while sparing some degree of accuracy with which you can use to form the basis of a conclusion.


tl;dr - Sometimes, you just gotta improvise and go from there.