[BSC] Potential Unban Of The Dead Phoenix Core

Hi everyone! Yesterday, I was trying out multiple Dead Phoenix Core combos against a few Burst Classic combos to see if it is powerless enough to potentially be unbanned in Burst Classic. 

On the roundish shape of the Phoenix Core, it looks like it could be a half-decent Stamina/Defence Hybrid, and it has decent enough teeth to use drivers with semi-weak springs like Keep effectively.

Phoenix Core vs Tried And True Stamina/Defence Hybrids

Odin Heavy Revolve vs Phoenix Heavy Revolve
OHR: 4 Wins (All OS)
PHR: 1 Win (All OS)
Phoenix Win Rate (20%)

Deathsyther Heavy Revolve vs Phoenix Heavy Revolve
DHR: 8 Wins (All OS)
PHR: 2 Wins (All OS)
Phoenix Win Rate (20%)

Phoenix's only wins came about when launched second and possibly slightly harder, and would not OS as convincingly as Odin or Deathsyther.

Phoenix Core vs KO Attack

Phoenix Heavy Keep vs Valkrie Heavy Merge Dash
PHK: 5 Wins (1 BF, 4 OS)
VHMr': 0 Wins
Phoenix Win Rate (100%)

Phoenix Heavy Keep vs Ogre O4 Heavy Xtreme
PHK: 9 Wins (1 BF, 8 OS)
O4HX: 1 Win (1 BF) (No Ogre Finishes Unhappy ) 
Phoenix Win Rate (90%)

The Phoenix Core looks like it could have some potential as a KO Defence Type, since it can use Keep very effectively as the results prove.

Phoenix Core vs Opposite Spin

Phoenix Yell Eternal vs Dragoon F Yell Eternal
PYEt: 5 Wins (All OS)
DGF.Y.Et: 0 Wins
Phoenix Win Rate (100%)

Needless to say, Phoenix destroyed Dragoon on opposite spin eternal, as Wolborg would most likely do as well.
Speaking of Wolborg...

Phoenix Heavy Eternal vs Wolborg Heavy Eternal
PHEt: 3 Wins (All OS)
WHEt: 2 Wins (All OS)
Phoenix Win Rate (60%)

So Phoenix is about equal, if not better than arguably the most popular BSC layer among many casual BSC players.

Phoenix Core vs Burst Attack


Phoenix Heavy Defence vs Storm Spriggan Gravity Zeta Dash
PHD: 2 Wins (All OS)
S2GZt': 3 Wins (All BF)
Phoenix Win Rate (40%)

Phoenix has decent Burst Resistance at best, as these tests imply.

And to finish off, Phoenix Core vs A weird combo that I made to try to make Reboot Dash competitive in BSC

Phoenix Heavy Defence vs Odin Heavy Reboot Dash
PHD: 0 Wins
OHRb': 5 Wins (1 BF 2 KO 2 OS)
Phoenix Win Rate (0%)

So overall, I think that the Phoenix core is similar to the Neptune but with less stamina and slightly better teeth. I think it should be unbanned, but please feel free to comment what you think in the thread.
There will most likely be no unbanning of God, Cho-Z, or GT because if we do, it won’t be very classic.
(Jul. 19, 2019  2:15 PM)CheetoBlader Wrote: There will most likely be no unbanning of God, Cho-Z, or GT because if we do, it won’t be very classic.

The unbanning of hasbro turbo layers is being considered, so this is not completely out of the realm or possibility.
(Jul. 19, 2019  2:16 PM)Ardmore Bladers Wrote:
(Jul. 19, 2019  2:15 PM)CheetoBlader Wrote: There will most likely be no unbanning of God, Cho-Z, or GT because if we do, it won’t be very classic.

The unbanning of hasbro turbo layers is being considered, so this is not completely out of the realm or possibility.
That’s why I said most likely. Not impossible, but not likely.
(Jul. 19, 2019  2:16 PM)Ardmore Bladers Wrote: The unbanning of hasbro turbo layers is being considered, so this is not completely out of the realm or possibility.

This is news to me, haha. Where have you heard this?
(Jul. 19, 2019  2:49 PM)~Mana~ Wrote:
(Jul. 19, 2019  2:16 PM)Ardmore Bladers Wrote: The unbanning of hasbro turbo layers is being considered, so this is not completely out of the realm or possibility.

This is news to me, haha. Where have you heard this?

Wombat was testing Ogre O4 and Kraken K4 Against Classic Combos in this thread-https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-BSC-Kra...Discussion where he said, “Recently, I bought the Hasbro exclusive Kraken K4 and Ogre O4, and have decided to test them against a bunch of Classic combos to see if they could potentially be unbanned in the Burst Classic format.”
If we keep adding new, weak layers, it won’t be Burst Classic anymore. It will be Burst Limited under a different name. The point of Burst Classic is for older layers to compete with each other, and if Dead Phoenix’s Core and Turbo layers get added in, it kinda ruins the point. Also, what’s the point of adding weak layers? If they stand no chance, people won’t even use them, so why add them?
(Jul. 19, 2019  5:01 PM)Dt20000 Wrote: If we keep adding new, weak layers, it won’t be Burst Classic anymore. It will be Burst Limited under a different name. The point of Burst Classic is for older layers to compete with each other, and if Dead Phoenix’s Core and Turbo layers get added in, it kinda ruins the point. Also, what’s the point of adding weak layers? If they stand no chance, people won’t even use them, so why add them?
My thoughts exactly.
LOL! I literally suggested this same thing as a joke in one of my group chats. This is actually amazing
Doesn't launching the Phoenix Core on its own go against TT's and WBBA's intend use of the Phoenix Beyblades? Pretty sure any Phoenix beyblade needs to be launched with the armor on. Thats also stated in our WBO Rulebook. That alone would void it from Classic. Making an exception to the rules just for Classic sounds weird to me.
(Jul. 19, 2019  5:02 PM)CheetoBlader Wrote:
(Jul. 19, 2019  5:01 PM)Dt20000 Wrote: If we keep adding new, weak layers, it won’t be Burst Classic anymore. It will be Burst Limited under a different name. The point of Burst Classic is for older layers to compete with each other, and if Dead Phoenix’s Core and Turbo layers get added in, it kinda ruins the point. Also, what’s the point of adding weak layers? If they stand no chance, people won’t even use them, so why add them?
My thoughts exactly.

The point of having a dynamic banlist for Burst Classic is that parts can be added or removed from it as needed to balance the meta, and the current banlist that exists as the experimental phase ends and the format becomes ranked is still subject to change as the metagame progresses. Just because something is banned or unbanned now doesn't mean that can never change - if enough testing is done and certain parts (like the Turbo Dual Layers, or Destroy') are shown to be healthy additions to the metagame, then they can be unbanned. Likewise, if parts that are currently unbanned (like Zeta' and Bullet) are shown to be too overcentralizing and exploitable during tournaments, then they can be banned.

Adding new, weak Layers won't stop Burst Classic from being Burst Classic, and frankly, it disgusts me to see this mindset being perpetuated in the aspiring competitive community. There is a huge difference in performance between things like Roktavor R3 and Guardian Kerbeus,  which can compete on some level with currently legal Classic combos without being too powerful, vs things like Twin Nemesis and Spriggan Requiem, which would completely dominate everything else in the format and need to be relegated to Burst Limited, which is based on the late God Layer era.

Despite this however, I don't think that the Dead Phoenix core alone should be unbanned in Classic, for the reason stated by LazerBeamz here:
(Jul. 19, 2019  5:29 PM)LazerBeamz Wrote: Doesn't launching the Phoenix Core on its own go against TT's and WBBA's intend use of the Phoenix Beyblades? Pretty sure any Phoenix beyblade needs to be launched with the armor on. Thats also stated in our WBO Rulebook. That alone would void it from Classic. Making an exception to the rules just for Classic sounds weird to me.

This thread is more similar to unbanning Duo in Attack mode than anything else really. Allowing appropriately weak parts is fine, but allowing an overpowered part on the condition that it has to be used in a nerfed state isn't.
(Jul. 19, 2019  8:27 PM)Wombat Wrote: The point of having a dynamic banlist for Burst Classic is that parts can be added or removed from it as needed to balance the meta, and the current banlist that exists as the experimental phase ends and the format becomes ranked is still subject to change as the metagame progresses. Just because something is banned or unbanned now doesn't mean that can never change - if enough testing is done and certain parts (like the Turbo Dual Layers, or Destroy') are shown to be healthy additions to the metagame, then they can be unbanned. Likewise, if parts that are currently unbanned (like Zeta' and Bullet) are shown to be too overcentralizing and exploitable during tournaments, then they can be banned.

Adding new, weak Layers won't stop Burst Classic from being Burst Classic, and frankly, it disgusts me to see this mindset being perpetuated in the aspiring competitive community. There is a huge difference in performance between things like Roktavor R3 and Guardian Kerbeus,  which can compete on some level with currently legal Classic combos without being too powerful, vs things like Twin Nemesis and Spriggan Requiem, which would completely dominate everything else in the format and need to be relegated to Burst Limited, which is based on the late God Layer era.

Okay, so you’re  saying that Burst Limited is based on the late God Layer Era. Burst Classic is based on the prior eras of the Single Layer System, Dual Layer System, and early God Layer System. Continually adding new parts from later eras goes against the point of Classic, which is
Mana Wrote:a format dedicated to old Single & Dual Layer System parts which can no longer fit in the metagame.
It disgusts you that people still want to uphold this? It disgusts you that people don’t want to ruin the point of a format?

Okay, then I vote we unban everything! Let’s add Spriggan Requiem, and Bearing, and Perfect Phoenix to this gamemode! Apparently, it’s disgusting if people don’t, so we probably should.
(Jul. 19, 2019  9:15 PM)Dt20000 Wrote:
(Jul. 19, 2019  8:27 PM)Wombat Wrote: The point of having a dynamic banlist for Burst Classic is that parts can be added or removed from it as needed to balance the meta, and the current banlist that exists as the experimental phase ends and the format becomes ranked is still subject to change as the metagame progresses. Just because something is banned or unbanned now doesn't mean that can never change - if enough testing is done and certain parts (like the Turbo Dual Layers, or Destroy') are shown to be healthy additions to the metagame, then they can be unbanned. Likewise, if parts that are currently unbanned (like Zeta' and Bullet) are shown to be too overcentralizing and exploitable during tournaments, then they can be banned.

Adding new, weak Layers won't stop Burst Classic from being Burst Classic, and frankly, it disgusts me to see this mindset being perpetuated in the aspiring competitive community. There is a huge difference in performance between things like Roktavor R3 and Guardian Kerbeus,  which can compete on some level with currently legal Classic combos without being too powerful, vs things like Twin Nemesis and Spriggan Requiem, which would completely dominate everything else in the format and need to be relegated to Burst Limited, which is based on the late God Layer era.

Okay, so you’re  saying that Burst Limited is based on the late God Layer Era. Burst Classic is based on the prior eras of the Single Layer System, Dual Layer System, and early God Layer System. Continually adding new parts from later eras goes against the point of Classic, which is
Mana Wrote:a format dedicated to old Single & Dual Layer System parts which can no longer fit in the metagame.
It disgusts you that people still want to uphold this? It disgusts you that people don’t want to ruin the point of a format?

Okay, then I vote we unban everything! Let’s add Spriggan Requiem, and Bearing, and Perfect Phoenix to this gamemode! Apparently, it’s disgusting if people don’t, so we probably should.

You've completely and willfully failed to understand the point of both my post and Burst Classic, and responded in a unnecessarily rude manner, so here, have a 20% warning. Smile

Burst Classic is a format based around the Single and Dual Layers, true, but its purpose is to create a format balanced around them rather than one that only includes them, and I say this as one of the people who designed the format in the first place. This is why parts like D2, J2, and L2 are banned from the format despite being given the arbitrary title of Dual Layer, and why parts like Xtreme' and Eternal are not despite being released long after the Dual Layer era - they help to remedy issues that existed during the first run of this metagame (dominance of D2 and L2 combos, and the unreliablility of KO Attack) and add a new dimension to gameplay by providing more diverse and accessible options to both new and old players. Continually adding new parts from later releases is exactly what we have been doing every time a new Beyblade is released, so you are wrong, it doesn't go against the point of Classic. As per my previous post, there is an obvious boundary that shouldn't be crossed (i.e. introducing a part like Spriggan Requiem, or Hasbro Bearing, or Perfect Phoenix, which renders most if not all of the core meta unviable), but there are also plenty of appropriately-powered parts that would fit right at home in Burst Classic.
The Dead Phoenix core can beat God Beys at times, so I don't think it would be wise to put it in BSC, but it sure is an interesting idea.
Aw, Wombat, don’t you think you’re going a little crazy with the warnings? Not trying to stir anything up but everyone is a bit rude at times and most of the time it’s to Members, yet they don’t get warned. I’m just saying, maybe go easier on the warnings. Wink