[BSC] Morrigna M4 Discussion

Buenas tardes amigos, a while back when all of my neighbors were out of the house I finally got a chance to test out the Morrigna M4 Layer for Burst Classic. This Layer was rumored to be one of the most powerful of the Turbo Exclusive Dual Layers, and has been described as similar to Kreis Satan in terms of performance. As is par the course for these testing threads, I also made a video about this:

First, since Morrigna seemed like more of a Defense/Stamina type Layer than Attack, I decided to test its Stamina vs Wolborg in a similar setup.

Wolborg Yell Eternal vs Morrigna M4 Gravity Eternal-S
Wb.Y.Et: 8 wins (6 OS, 2 Burst)
M4.G.Et-S: 12 wins (10 OS, 1 KO, 1 Burst)
1 tie redone
M4.G.Et-S win rate: 60%

More often than not, M4 would OS Wolborg, which isn't terribly impressive, since at least from my tests Wolborg doesn't seem to have as good Stamina as people originally thought.

I consulted KJ and bladekid about what specific Disk/Driver setups would likely work best with M4, and while neither of them had done super in-depth tests at the time I asked they both agreed that something like Gravity Orbit/Yard-S would likely be its best setup. I tried a few Driver matchups using these combos as well as how they fared against attackers.

Yegdrion Heavy Yard-S vs Morrigna M4 Gravity Orbit
Y.H.Yr-S: 9 wins (all OS)
M4.G.O: 11 wins (7 OS, 1 KO, 3 Burst)
3 ties redone
M4.G.O win rate: 55%

Yard-S didn't seem to be as consistent in countering this particular Orbit combo as it usually does, and they seemed pretty even in terms of Stamina, but M4 had a bit of an offensive upside. I remembered bladekid mentioning that Anubion A2 was less likely to get destabilized than Yegdrion and briefly tried it, but my A2 is not as tight as my Yegdrion and bursted every round in the 4-5 test rounds I did.

Odin Heavy Defense vs Morrigna M4 Gravity Yard-S
O.H.D: 10 wins (all OS)
M4.G.Yr-S: 11 wins (6 OS, 1 KO, 4 Burst)
2 ties redone
M4.G.Yr-S win rate: 52.3%

Did 21 rounds for this by accident. Odin would generally OS M4 by a higher margin than Yegdrion did, but was also more vulnerable to bursting.

Xcalibur Heavy Quick' vs Morrigna M4 Gravity Yard-S
X.H.Qc': 10 wins (7 KO, 3 Burst)
M4.G.Yr-S: 10 wins (7 OS, 2 KO, 1 Burst)
1 tie redone
M4.G.Yr-S win rate: 50%

Zillion Zeus Knuckle Hunter' vs Morrigna M4 Gravity Orbit
Z2.K.Hn': 11 wins (3 OS, 3 KO, 5 Burst)
M4.G.O: 9 wins (6 OS, 1 KO, 2 Burst)
3 ties redone
M4.G.O win rate: 45%

Roktavor Heavy Cycle vs Morrigna M4 Gravity Orbit
R.H.Cy: 9 wins (1 OS, 1 KO, 7 Burst)
M4.G.O: 11 wins (9 OS, 2 KO)
1 tie redone
M4.G.O win rate: 55%

Spryzen S2 Gravity Iron vs Morrigna M4 Gravity Orbit
S2.G.Ir: 7 wins (3 OS, 3 KO, 1 Burst)
M4.G.O: 13 wins (9 OS, 1 KO, 3 Burst)
1 tie redone
M4.G.O win rate: 65%

None of the attackers fared spectacularly against M4 on Orbit/Yr-S, Spryzen S2 on Iron especially performed surprisingly poorly. I don't have Ul', and didn't try Trans' against it since I didn't want to wear down one of my Valkyries.

Morrigna M4 Triple Xtreme vs Gigant Gaia Gravity Keep'
M4.T.X: 5 wins (2 OS, 3 KO)
G2.G.Kp': 15 wins (9 OS, 1 KO, 5 Burst)
1 tie redone
M4.T.X win rate: 25%

After noticing that M4 did have a tendency to burst or KO opposing Stamina or Attack types, I tried it on an Attack setup to see if it would be any good, but it didn't seem to be anything too special.

Overall, Morrigna M4 definitely lived up to its reputation as one of the best Turbo Exclusive Dual Layers, and is probably better than Kreis Satan (but I didn't directly compare the two). It was able to achieve, on average, about a 50% win rate against a bunch of meta Attack and Stamina combos in what is supposedly its best setup, which is a bit concerning since that makes M4.G.O/Yr-S somewhat of a safe, spammable combo that will probably stand a decent chance against most anything in the meta. However, the same could also be said about something like Gravity F230GCF in MFB Limited, so that doesn't necessarily make it grounds for a ban (though given Gravity's history, likely at least a controversial topic). I'd say M4 is borderline overpowered for Classic, but there's also several different combos/types of combos (that I can't test due to not breaking/not having some parts) I'd like to see tested against it before coming to a conclusive conclusion. From the testing I've done for Burst Limited so far it's been getting trashed by potential top tier combos using things like sX and nL, so idk, it might be in a weird in-between tier. It's possible that M4 is like the Metal Fury Scythe of Burst, but I'd want to see more testing/experimental tournament results (I think @RacingCheetaz has one coming up?).
I do be agreeing with these tests. I personally think it may be borderline, but I also think preserving the whole "the turbo exclusives aren't OP" thing consistent and if one is too OP or borderline, I personally think unless it's proven to be a non threat, it should remain banned.
While I was on the topic of Balar, I did some tests to see how it actually performed 1v1 against Morrigna. However, for whatever reason, my sliding shoot was so much better today than when I had tested it before, that it would not have really been an accurate comparison. So I actually took the risk of using my red mold 2 V2 with the special stickers just to see how it stacked up.

Morrigna M4 Gravity Yard-S vs Balar B4 Gravity Xtreme
M4.G.Yr-S: 6 wins (all OS)
B4.G.X: 14 wins (6 Burst 8 KO)
2 ties redone
M4.G.Yr-S win rate: 30%

Morrigna M4 Gravity Yard-S vs Victory Valkyrie Knuckle Xtreme'
M4.G.Yr-S: 6 wins (1 Burst 5 OS)
V2.K.X': 14 wins (8 Burst 6 KO)
2 ties redone
M4.G.Yr-S win rate: 30%

Not only can these achieve a pretty great win rate against what has the potential to be one of the best Stamina/Defense hybrids in Classic (though keep in mind this was like peak condition sliding shoot, I was getting pretty consistent 1 hit KOs and Bursts), their similar performances also support the claim I made that Balar was roughly equal in power to the TT V2 on X'.

I had also tried a few practice rounds against S2.G.Ir and S2 was also faring a little better than I had remembered (and what the testing in the OP suggests). Even switched out the Driver on M4 to Orbit and Et-S briefly to test against the KO Attackers, and M4's defensiveness didn't seem to change significantly, so my stance on it is starting to change. Maybe it isn't as broken defensively as I originally made it out to be, but I'll have to retest it against the stamina meta (now with D2 and J2) to see if it just overcentralizes things there rather than just being overpowered in and of itself (How good is it on Ab-S?). Maybe allowing things like D2 and Balar into Classic could keep M4 in check enough to unban it.
We'll have to see, I don't really want to risk adding it, especially when trying to get the other ones unbanned. You can definitely defeat it with an optimal launch, but with that said, you can beat pretty much anything with an optimal launch. Have you tried B4 against something like M4.D.U? I think that would be a good place to start. I am definitely open to this idea, but I'm just a bit sceptical.
I have not tried it on M4.D.U, but I feel like that is niche enough of a combo that if it only performs exceptionally well in that category then it isn't necessarily overpowered. If we're trying to see if M4 is overpowered, the best way to test that would be on a stamina/defense hybrid combo, since those combos have a wide spread of matchups where they perform well, and are easy to use. And the point about being able to beat anything with an optimal launch is a good one, but even so I was surprised to get such a high percentage against a stamina/defense hybrid. I guess now at that point the only thing to check would be whether it outperforms other layers that do well on those kinds of combos in a mirror match.

However, I do think that because Classic is not currently in an unranked experimental stage it would be a better decision to err on the side of caution. Or we could always just throw caution to the wind in the face of the apocalypse.
(Oct. 07, 2020  4:53 AM)Wombat Wrote: But at the same time, it does seem to overcentralize the stamina meta a bit, as its weight and Stamina are at least good enough to turn an unfavorable driver matchup into a neutral one. Not sure how the introduction of D2 and J2 changes this - I do remember doing a few rounds between M4.G.Et-S and D2.G.O but I don't remember who won, so those two could possibly keep it in check as well. I'd also want to see how something like M4 on Destroy would perform as kind of a big-boi Imperial type, since it does have some attacking power.

Finally got around to trying M4 on Ds, and it's quite a bit better than I thought.

Morrigna M4 Gravity Destroy vs. Odin Heavy Defense
M4.G.Ds: 7 wins (4 OS, 2 Burst, 1 KO)
O.H.D: 3 wins (all OS)
M4.G.Ds win rate: 70%

Odin had to be hard launched in order to stand a chance of OSing M4, but by doing so its risk of bursting went up by a lot, and even then it wasn't always successful.

Morrigna M4 Gravity Destroy vs. Jormuntor J2 Heavy Yard-S
M4.G.Ds: 11 wins (7 OS, 2 Burst, 2 KO)
J2.H.Yr-S: 9 wins (7 OS, 1 Burst, 1 KO)
4 ties redone
M4.G.Ds win rate: 55%

Decided to try something more burst resistant than Odin, and did 20 rounds for this test since M4 hasn't been formally tested against the newly-unbanned J2 yet. It certainly did better than Odin, though keep in mind that we still have yet to see J2 perform in a tournament environment, and there's a chance it's just a bit stronger than other Stamina/Defense options. I do think this is one of J2's best combos though, and even then it couldn't beat M4 Ds consistently.

Morrigna M4 Gravity Destroy vs. Yegdrion Heavy Eternal-S
M4.G.Ds: 4 wins (all OS)
Y.H.Et-S: 6 wins (all OS)
1 tie redone
M4.G.Ds win rate: 40%

Testing this was really weird, since the matchup played out very inconsistently. M4 crushed Yegdrion in the first 3 rounds, but afterward, Yegdrion started winning. Some of Yegdrion's wins were by a large margin, and others were not. M4 pulled out another close OS in one of the final rounds.

I didn't consciously try any new launch technique to change the outcome of the match - I always flat launched Yedgrion first at full power, followed by an M4 Sliding Shoot at around 80/85% power. The amount of contact between the two didn't seem to make much of a difference either, at first M4 was getting lots of smaller, consistent hits that would destabilize Et-S, and then later on it was getting those same kinds of hits... but somehow just not destabilizing it anymore. There were no bursts, and I didn't take either combo apart mid-test to rebalance it, so I don't know what could have caused such wild variations in the results.

Morrigna M4 Gravity Destroy vs. Dragoon F Polish Absorb
M4.G.Ds: 7 wins (6 OS, 1 Burst)
DgF.P.Ab: 3 wins (all OS)
2 ties redone
M4.G.Ds win rate: 70%

Similarly to a right spin Et/Et-S/Ab-S combo, M4 Ds was able to OS a max LAD Dragoon without being max LAD itself, though due to M4 not being as proficient against opposite spin as Neptune or Hasbro Kerbeus are, it wasn't a guaranteed win.

Morrigna M4 Gravity Destroy vs. Balar B4 Gravity Xtreme
M4.G.Ds: 8 wins (4 OS, 3 Burst, 1 KO)
B4.G.X: 2 wins (all KO)
1 tie redone
M4.G.Ds win rate: 80%

Even on a Driver that generally has a bad matchup against KO Attack, M4 was able to win most of the time, though my Sliding Shoot with Xtreme was rather bad today (and I also started getting frustrated when either or both combos refused to launch properly). Compared to Orbit or Yard-S, Destroy gave it enough aggression that it was able to Burst Balar several times before the latter had a chance to KO it. Compare to Q2, an Anti-Attack Layer, on the same setup:

Quad Quetzalcatl Gravity Destroy vs. Balar B4 Gravity Xtreme
Q2.G.Ds: 4 wins (2 OS, 1 Burst, 1 KO)
B4.G.X: 6 wins (2 Burst 4 KO)
2 ties redone
Q2.G.Ds win rate: 40%

Earlier I thought that D2/J2 and potentially Balar could keep Morrigna in check in the event that it was unbanned, but after testing it out on Destroy and watching it succeed against these other top tier Layers, while still keeping a similar or better performance vs the Stamina meta I think it's best M4 stay banned. Absorb-S aside, there's several other Stamina/Defense Drivers setups that are viable, and imo it would only be a matter of time before someone finds one that makes M4 definitively overpowered in Classic.