Think of it as a World Championship-type battle in the anime. Before the battle starts, both players know which blades will be used, and can plan their selection accordingly. The "less then three blades" scenario comes in with the Starbreaker match, Gingka would have had to go twice (if Ryuga hadn't stepped in). I also agree that the current system is very luck/material based, and I can honestly say I've bought into it. I walk around the room and ask defeated players what my next opponent uses, so I have a good idea of their style and what I can do to beat it. I also record my battles in a book, for the same reason of better preparing myself. There can still be an element of surprise/luck even so. Real life example: I had lost to someone 3 times in a row, and in those battles, he had used Basalt 230CS and Flash S130MF. Thus the next time I faced him, I used Saramanda Revizer BD145MB, which could consistently beat both of his combos. He ended up using Meteo against me and won 3-0, but we both agreed that if he hadn't chosen Meteo the battle would've gone down differently.

If the players have the exact same knowledge about the metagame, but one has more access to modern parts, their Killerken Killerken BD145CS will win against LLD CH120RF. A well equipped, knowledgeable player will have the best chance of winning, and a poorly equipped, unknowledgeable player will have the lowest chance of winning.
In my tournament experiences, I would say that today's metagame is mostly about guessing correctly what your opponent will pick, closely followed by materials and customization skill. In the case above, with your opponent having 2 rocks and a paper, and with you having one of each, your best bet would be to stick with paper for all 2/3 rounds, as the opponent has no sound scissors to counter with. By thinking this way, A poorly equipped but knowledgeable player can win against one who, by your expressions "just throws money at the tier list" by using his outclassed Gravity Perseus AD145WD to OS all those RDF Revizers via Left Spin. The opposite can also be argued, that bad parts are just bad parts, and that Basalt can't survive a direct hit from Flash. Thus, it is toughest to guess correctly against an opponent using Flash, Revizer, and Duo without any knowledge of their style or preferences.

I want to see it implemented as well, but if it doesn't work that's cool too. Also, I apologize if none of my thoughts above made coherent sense.

If there is more than one round, you can totally pick the same Beyblade twice! That must be why everyone is saying this is like the deck system! I'll make this more clear in the OP.

The point of this ruleset is exactly what you said, you select up to three Beys and then only use one per round. If you have more than one Beyblade, at the end of each round, you're ALLOWED to switch Beyblades, but you by no means have to!

Oh! Well, in that case, I agree with this.

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If the players have the exact same knowledge about the metagame, but one has more access to modern parts, their Killerken Killerken BD145CS will win against LLD CH120RF.

Most Hasbro bladers, except maybe in the UK and India because there so slow at getting new beys, have access to stuff like Phantom, Flash, and RB.

With no new releases coming up, hopefully the playing field of parts will become completely even, especially with Zero-G in fall.

Wow .. a whole thread for a new me based format ... how loved I must be XD
@Byxisblader - ... Hasbro have released stuff in the UK at least .. Not actually sure if they've finished releasing it all. And Hasbro are still to release Zero-G Shogun Steel .

Apologies for the clunky title Also I'm using crazy old examples as the format I am discussing very easy to highlight the flaws in the system, as well as it being the format in which I was most comfortable with

From what I understand of the rules, player may not change their bey blade through the the course of the round once attached. For me in some ways what this seems to create is a situation where an unfavourable match up is unwinnable- the match in some ways can be considered predetermined. Back in the days of MF Lightning L-Drago BD145LRF for example, many games outside mirror matches or combos specifically designed to beat MF Lightning L-Drago BD145LRF were pre-conceived as being lost. In a meta game dominated by MF Lightning L-Drago BD145LRF, a competitive player was essentially forced to play either MF Lightning L-Drago BD145LRFor a combo designed to beat it reducing initiative and skill in the game. The metagame and subsequently the rules force the player to go into the match playing "the meta". It becomes impossible to be successful with tier 2 customs that very potentially could have been "meta" if it wasn't for MF Lightning L-Drago BD145LRF or any other customs that at any other time that have been considered dominant. Wombat nicely sums up here what skill in this game requires

• Parts/Customization: Involves owning or borrowing the necessary parts/equipment to be a "competitive" Beyblader and knowledge of how to optimize these parts to build the most powerful customs you can. Obviously a Blader who has access to all of the parts on the Competitive Customs list and knows which combos perform better in which areas will have an advantage over an understocked or less knowledgeable player.
  
• Prediction: Involves making an educated guess or prediction of what Beyblade your opponent will use next, and choosing your own Beyblade accordingly. Factors that contribute to this include knowing or observing your opponent's "behavior" in tournaments (what type of combos they tend to use) and knowledge of how matchups work.
  
• Application: Involves using launching techniques/applying your knowledge to the actual battle. Examples include Sliding Shoot vs. Tornado Stalling, launching Defense types aggressively, Gattyaki, Weak Launching, etc.
  

Now some of these skills outweigh others in determining the outcome of the match; for example, it is highly unlikely a combination that used sub-par parts will win, irregardless of how well you predict what your opponent will be playing (note how you are unable to change your custom!) In my opinion that makes your access to different combinations the most crucial factor in playing the game. Application again is very important; mirror matches in the current state of Beyblade rely on it. What should be an extremely prominent skill in the game is prediction. In the current state prediction relies on a few things: your knowledge of the metagame and your knowledge of the player. In a format where one combination has an extremely high win rate you have a pretty good idea of what your opponent will be playing. Therefore, you can adapt your custom to be able to "beat the meta." Now we need to observe if this is actually a good thing. For example if you enter a tournament with a single custom that is "anti-meta" you have a good chance yes off beating what you set out to beat. But you will be faced with a situation that you have a high likelihood of losing too anything else; an example of this was MF-H Basalt Kerbecs 230WF/MF. This had a very good match up against Lightning L'Drago but generally lost to tier 1.5/2 combos. I personally misjudged the Newcastle meta in my first tournament,, piloting this combo in the days where Lightning L Drago I felt confident in winning most of my games- I analysed the meta and concluded that I should beat Lightning L Drago which took a considerable portion of the top spots. In reality what happened was I versed no L'Drago customs and subsequently after analysing what the Newcastle meta went on too winning my next few games, barring one. This is not a healthy game state. The current state of analysis is unpredictable at best. People are put of playing combinations that are ant/not meta for the fear of being locked out of being able to change should they be in an unfavourable matchup

What I propose here is a change to the system where a player may change there custom in matches 2 and 3- I understand this may seem skeptical and unorthodox but it does bring a few exciting elements too the game. Firstly, it reduces idea of a predetermined loss; a player can feel confident knowing they may not lose the game due to an unfavourable match-up, reducing any player tilt. Next, it increases elements of skill in the game, again I want to use the Lightning Tank as an example as this era of bey blade is one I am quite comfortable in discussing.


The deck format has also been suggested. This again comes with numerous positives and negatives. A variation of this format has been suggested as basis or starting point by Bey Brad:

Exhibition Format

- Each Blader comes prepared with five complete Beyblade customs, each with a different Layer

- Both Bladers are given three minutes to examine their opponent’s five combos, write notes, etc

- After 3 minutes have elapsed, each Blader secretly picks three Bey from their set of 5 to serve as their “deck” for the match, with one designated as the Starter. This Deck is revealed to the judge, but not the other player. All five Beyblades should be kept together so that the opposing Blader is unaware of the Deck’s true contents.

- A Bey is eliminated from play once it has been defeated three times.

- When a Blader’s Bey is eliminated from play, they must secretly select another Bey from their Deck. AFTER they do so but BEFORE they reveal their selection, the victorious player must declare if they will switch to another Bey in their Deck or continue with the victorious Bey.

- Once a Blader no longer has any Bey remaining in their deck, they lose the Exhibition Battle.

Now whilst it may seem counter-intuitive to limit the amount of customs that a player can have it does come with a fair few advantages (the deck system as a whole not specifically Exhibition Format) It allow you to predict to a more precise degree what your opponent will be playing. Elements of bluffing are also much higher under this, if you know what you opponent will be bluffing with etc. However, the deck system would require players likely to own more parts. If a player needed to use a Earth wheel for two customs, they would need to own two Earth wheels to create their deck

I'd like to say the Exhibition format highlights a problem with introducing some sort of elimination/alteration of the clause in what it is more time-consuming. I am 100% bias naturally in getting rid of this clause, but Exhibition Format in itself is simply an example of a deck format system. A tournament that used Exhibition format would be considerably longer; I was simply using the Exhibition Format as an example. Whilst eliminating the clause would increase the overall length, putting a cap on the time taken to change Beyblades between rounds would not substantially increase the length of time that a tournament would last

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What if a player only had 1 beyblade? Would they use that same one the whole time?

Not sure if i like this, but maybe in the future it can be a seperate format. Also, the tournament would probably take longer if this format was used.

I think it's an interesting concept. If it were to happen, I personally would want it in a separate "Exhibition Format", per say.

The biggest negative that comes to mind off bat, is the length of time this would take up/add. Obviously it'd be a few minutes per round, but depending how many players you have; you could seriously be looking at alot of time wasted (not to be negative, just lack of better word, haha) with this.

I think one of the great things about the current system (1 per match) is that it allows players to use a variety of parts throughout the event, itself. One Beyblade per match has some disadvantages (ie: if you have Lightning CH120 F and your opponent has Genbu Genbu B, you probably won't have a good time), but I feel like it's an efficient system, overall. It allows players to change up customs when necessary, which this idea would limit. After playing through so many events, both local and international, I can't emphasize enough how useful changing customs/adapting customs is.

Another point is definitely people who have limited collections. Especially some of my local players only have a few customs they rely on and the regular younger players who attend only bring/own a few to begin with. I once had a younger player only come in with two tops. It's not safe to say people would jump to let people borrow parts, especially in a situation where only an X amount of tops can be used by each person, so people may not think of bringing many spare parts.

I think that this idea of an "Exhibition Format"/multiple tops per match is an interesting idea to think about and work on, but it shouldn't replace the system we have now. Would it be cool to see an "Exhibition Format" or something similar in the future? Certainly. Replacing the regular system? Maybe not as much.

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Also, true lion gale force wall and fee-hee-heenay call

What if a player only had 1 beyblade? Would they use that same one the whole time?

Not sure if i like this, but maybe in the future it can be a seperate format. Also, the tournament would probably take longer if this format was used.

If there were to be a deck based system is imagine for simplicity that they would have to use that one beyblade but I think it really is worth noting that in a system where you can change between rounds you would be able to change parts around etc. I personally do not feel as strong about deck based systems because off this but i really would imagine the majority of players in a system in which players can switch beyblade (non deck based) would have access to a few competitive combos, should they already have access to one

I do really want to clarify that the exhibition format in my option is not viable because of this time restraints, though a deck based systemcmay. However, like I mentioned I would cap the switch interval at around a minute to avoid this; two minutes at a maximum extra per round I imagine would add no more that 25m max.

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I'll talk more about this later, but as I wrote before the exhibition format was designed to be played 1-on-1, and not designed to be a tournament structure.

Wombat did point to a whole thread where we discussed a similar change though ... http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-A-New-Ex...-Intensive

Oh, thanks for sharing that! Good thoughts.

In the current state prediction relies on a few things: your knowledge of the metagame and your knowledge of the player. In a format where one combination has an extremely high win rate you have a pretty good idea of what your opponent will be playing. Therefore, you can adapt your custom to be able to "beat the meta." Now we need to observe if this is actually a good thing.

For example if you enter a tournament with a single custom that is "anti-meta" you have a good chance yes off beating what you set out to beat. But you will be faced with a situation that you have a high likelihood of losing too anything else; an example of this was MF-H Basalt Kerbecs 230WF/MF.

This had a very good match up against Lightning L'Drago but generally lost to tier 1.5/2 combos. I personally misjudged the Newcastle meta in my first tournament,, piloting this combo in the days where Lightning L Drago I felt confident in winning most of my games- I analysed the meta and concluded that I should beat Lightning L Drago which took a considerable portion of the top spots.

In reality what happened was I versed no L'Drago customs and subsequently after analysing what the Newcastle meta went on too winning my next few games, barring one. This is not a healthy game state. The current state of analysis is unpredictable at best. People are put of playing combinations that are ant/not meta for the fear of being locked out of being able to change should they be in an unfavourable matchup

What happened here was that you completely made the wrong judgement beforehand, corrected your judgement, and went on to sweep the tournament based on your new insight. It seems to me that you won the tournament based on your ability to adapt to the situation, so I don't see the issue?

I don't think changing the format at all would've helped this. It seems to me that if none of these players were able to beat you, I doubt they would've been able to take advantage of a switching rule to manage it, either.

Finally, in your format so much of it still comes down to complete guesswork with no information. If you don't know any information about your opponent's next custom, it's impossible to make a really educated decision. Ingulit's proposal and my own at least seek to address this by giving the other player visibility; the major difference between his and mine is that I opted to keep some mystery to your opponent's final decisions.

The biggest issue is that players who are actually both willing to play at this high of a level and actually all get together to play it is vanishingly small, and that switching to a format like this would alienate most players with smaller collections. Thus, I think any discussion moving forward would have to at least consider that events like this would need to be special and limited in their nature (think: once a year, at events like Anime North).

EDIT: Just finished reading the full thread Kai-V linked. Mandatory reading, for sure – some of the most interesting thoughts I've seen on competitive Beyblade from both sides of the argument.

I've been thinking about how a format like this could work, and have an idea:

Each Blader builds up to 3 Beyblades, and orders them from one to three (in the event that a Blader cannot build three complete Beyblades, or does not wish to, one Beyblade may be assigned to more than one position). This is a blind pick - neither Blader is allowed to see what the other is choosing. After both Bladers have assembled their three Beyblades, they each reveal their combos in the order that they assigned them. These three pairs (1 and 1, 2 and 2, 3 and 3) will face off against one another. Each Blader may choose one of the three matchups that they find preferable; they will then proceed to play through up to a total of five matches - two for each chosen matchup (if both choose the same match, there will still be four total), and one tiebreaker round with the pairing that neither Blader chose (if both choose the same match, the matchup for the tiebreaker will be determined at random). The Blader who reaches 3 match wins wins the battle.

This might not work out so well because it encourages players to play out one-sided battles (because naturally those are the pairings that people will choose to play), but I think a format like this will create a metagame similar to that of MOBAs like League of Legends, where there is an established role for each lane (or matchup slot in the case of Beyblade) to ensure that neither side stomps the other because of a bad pick. In higher-level play, this gets mixed around a bit, and can lead to deeper strategy and overall a better game, and yet doesn't end up as an endless series of boring, one-sided fights.

also it encourages playing Balance, and Balance is kewl :3

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Threads and combos!

Spoiler (Click to View)

[LTD] MF Jade Horogium 85RSF
[LTD] RB / RSF Attack
[LTD] Ronin Genbull (Crystal Up) 85RF
MF-H Phantom (Attack) Cancer 85RB
MSF-H Wyvang Ifraid GB145RF {Alternative to Wyvang^2 with more Upper Attack}
MSF-H Genbull Genbull 85RSF {Improved version of the above Phantom combo}
Balro Begirados 100RF {LTAC with both Upper Smash and regular Smash}
[LTD] MF-H Lightning L-Drago 85RB {more controllable Lightning LTAC}
[LTD] Burn Orion 105SF {Destabilizer}

EDIT: Just finished reading the full thread Kai-V linked. Mandatory reading, for sure – some of the most interesting thoughts I've seen on competitive Beyblade from both sides of the argument.

What I am wondering is if the opening post here should not have been posted in that topic first, because this is really a continuation or duplicate of at least a very similar subject ...

I seriously can't fathom trying to explain that to new players, or even intermediate ones – I had to read it multiple times to understand exactly what you were suggesting. It sounds extremely complicated. I also don't see how it's going to lead to certain slots containing certain kinds of Beyblades?

What I am wondering is if the opening post here should not have been posted in that topic first, because this is really a continuation or duplicate of at least a very similar subject ...

Yeah, they could have. Maybe we should merge. (Also, it says I edited your post but it was an accident. )

Alright then, merged.

All these different proposals are really cool and would probably make for some interesting tournament scenarios. Personally, though, I've always looked at Beyblade, and consequently described it to strangers to the game in this way, as a kind of rock-paper-scissors involving skill because even if a combination that's mostly at a disadvantage to another is selected, it doesn't mean it can't still win against that one. Following selection, victory of either player is dependent on factors influenced by either of them (such as launching technique, strength, parts wear, etc.), so I don't believe that winners can always be determined based on combo match-ups alone. Even so, some combo match-ups are nearly impossible to win, but I think in some of those instances, the Blader needs to be held accountable for his or her loss.

Honestly, I think a less drastic measure we could take than anything proposed before this that could still give players who might feel as though they're at a disadvantage is the choice to change or replace any one part of their chosen combo to a different part, or to change the mode of a part that would otherwise not be legal to change without disassembling the combination, once per BeyBattle.

Keeping to the meta Poseidon's familiar with, say you chose to use Basalt Kerbecs TH170WF, anticipating your opponent to use Lightning L-Drago BD145RF, but he or she instead selected Basalt Aquario BD145MB, a very popular and reserved Defense-Stamina oriented combo of the time; You couldn't be expected to outspin or knockout that hulking circle with your taller, faster-moving hulk of a circle. However, if you could simply change either the Metal Wheel of your combo from Basalt to Big Bang, or its Bottom from WF to D especially, you'd have a much better chance to beat your opponent's Defense-Stamina hybrid by either knockout or outspin than before depending on your choice of parts swapped.

This concept fits in line with the title of this thread in that Bladers who know how to make do with what they have given the allowance to swap or change the mode of one part of their combo in an unfavorable match-up will have a greater chance to succeed than those who may not. If you didn't know swapping either of the parts of the original combo in the example above could yield a new combo with a slight advantage over the original in the given situation, then they would most likely continue to fail, either as the result of their poor choice of swap or by not swapping at all.

Though this idea would take a bit of debating on what parts could be deemed appropriate to swap for which other parts and when, I think a plan more similar to this one would not only be easier to implement, but it would also continue to hold Bladers mostly accountable for their initial competitive decisions, while still giving them a kind of second chance.

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Spoiler (Click to View)

This is what we all want, Brad.

I seriously can't fathom trying to explain that to new players, or even intermediate ones – I had to read it multiple times to understand exactly what you were suggesting. It sounds extremely complicated.

I can probably reword it better, and pictures would help a lot. That post was very stream-of-consciousness, so it may or may not be incoherent babbling.

I also don't see how it's going to lead to certain slots containing certain kinds of Beyblades?

Ignore that part, haha. I realized that that's completely wrong - unlike in the MOBA scenario where you want to pit similar characters against one another (ie tank vs tank), in Beyblade, people will always keep switching to remain on top of the rock-paper-scissors triangle. That analogy is horribly broken and wrong, sorry


Angry Face's post:

I like the idea, but I think that it will shift the way the game is played a lot more than you might think. Combos that can radically change their performance based on one swapped part would be dominant over most other choices, simply because you could suddenly change your Anti-Attack combo (beating Attack and Stamina) into a Stamina combo to beat Defense. Consider MSF-H Wyvang Dragooon SA165 (ZG Attack) ____, where "____" is either RDF, EWD, or RF. If your opponent is using a plastic or metal tip of any kind, KO them on RF; if they are using anything rubber that's not RDF, spam RDF to spin-steal and LAD to victory; and if they use RDF (unless it's some Anti-Attack combo) switch off to EWD for the OS. Furthermore, if you start off with RDF or RF, you have the option to go full-on Wyvang^2 if a particularly pesky Defense/Stamina combo (Duo BD145RDF or Genbull^2 E230MB perhaps) shows up. It's not unbeatable, but it's much stronger than any one of those individual combos are alone. Combos that are one part off from a bunch of other different combos become very viable if players can switch even one part during a battle.

Of course, whether that would be a good or bad thing is up for debate.

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Threads and combos!

Spoiler (Click to View)

[LTD] MF Jade Horogium 85RSF
[LTD] RB / RSF Attack
[LTD] Ronin Genbull (Crystal Up) 85RF
MF-H Phantom (Attack) Cancer 85RB
MSF-H Wyvang Ifraid GB145RF {Alternative to Wyvang^2 with more Upper Attack}
MSF-H Genbull Genbull 85RSF {Improved version of the above Phantom combo}
Balro Begirados 100RF {LTAC with both Upper Smash and regular Smash}
[LTD] MF-H Lightning L-Drago 85RB {more controllable Lightning LTAC}
[LTD] Burn Orion 105SF {Destabilizer}

I hope no one minds if I repost this here. It was in Beyblade Random Thoughts and didn't get merged over.

This is more or less the same idea proposed in this thread, but it's still cool that other people are thinking about it. I replied to the original thread, but seeing as how I am more mature (hopefully) and experienced with Beyblades/tournaments I'll toss my opinion out there again.

The way I see competitive Beyblade, there are three main components in deciding a match:

• Parts/Customization: Involves owning or borrowing the necessary parts/equipment to be a "competitive" Beyblader and knowledge of how to optimize these parts to build the most powerful customs you can. Obviously a Blader who has access to all of the parts on the Competitive Customs list and knows which combos perform better in which areas will have an advantage over an understocked or less knowledgeable player.
  
• Prediction: Involves making an educated guess or prediction of what Beyblade your opponent will use next, and choosing your own Beyblade accordingly. Factors that contribute to this include knowing or observing your opponent's "behavior" in tournaments (what type of combos they tend to use) and knowledge of how matchups work.
  
• Application: Involves using launching techniques/applying your knowledge to the actual battle. Examples include Sliding Shoot vs. Tornado Stalling, launching Defense types aggressively, Gattyaki, Weak Launching, etc.
  

And the best Beybladers must be proficient in all three of these to win consistently; having only one or two of the three is not enough to be successful. An example (albeit one that unfortunately uses myself) would be my performance in Beydays 2012: I was relatively well stocked vs. the opponents in my Block and could put together top-tier combos, even though it was my first tournament I observed what my opponents used and predicted fairly well, but my application was utter carp. Angry Face, most notably, was able to exploit that when he beat me with a (technically) stock Thief Phoenic.

Using this ruleset, from my understanding, both Beybladers show their opponent and the Judge up to three combos they may use during the battle. There are then several rule variations that could potentially be retooled to emphasize one or more of the three components I mentioned over another (Note for all of these examples I'm using the hierarchy round < match < battle, where each match is what is currently considered a battle (best 3/5) and a battle can be either two or three matches):

• Can Beyblades be re-used during a battle? - Despite the three-Beyblade system easing prediction to a more literal "rock-paper-scissors" game, if Beyblades can only be used once in a battle, it makes prediction much more stressful. If you pick a bad matchup, you won't have that potentially useful Beyblade to bail you out later. If Beyblades are reusable then the system is much more forgiving of poor predictions.
  
• Can Beyblades be disassembled in between matches? - This is important for parts that are useful for multiple combos (Metal Faces, RF, Dragooon, BD145, B:D, Wyvang, etc.) and people who don't buy a ton of duplicates, if any. If someone wants to use Bahamdia Dragooon BD145R2F and Girago Dragooon B:D but only has one Dragooon they will have to choose which combo to use for the battle. If they can disassemble they can use Dragooon on both combos, as long as they are the exact same combos presented to the Judge/opponent earlier (maybe they could be written down or something?).
  
• Will the winner be decided through match wins (best 2/3) or through round wins (like a Team Battle)? - Depending on how this system is scored it could put more emphasis on application. If it is cut-and-dry, best 2/3 matches, then prediction becomes more important to get your opponent in a bad matchup. If it is scored like a Team Battle, players have more of an incentive to try and fight their way out of a bad matchup, because even if they still lose 2-3 they will only be down "2-3" rather than "0-1".
  

The last factor I can think of how this would take a lot more time than a normal tournament now, so I think if this is ever implemented it should be a trial run like the F230CF/GCF ban. Depending on the decisions made about those rules I listed above this ruleset could be beneficial.

As for the issue of players with smaller collections, we could implement something like disassembling Beyblades during matches so that you can have Duo B:D and Dragooon B:D, or Wyvern Accel and Wyvern Claw, Samurai Upper + GFCUV and Samurai Upper + Bearing Core 2, etc. People who only have one or two Beyblades would have to reuse them, but I don't see how this ruleset would put them at any more of a disadvantage than they would already be at.