World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc. Other Closed Threads

Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables

Poll: Tier or Skill?

Tier
17.69%
26
Skill
82.31%
121
Total: 100% 147 vote(s)
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Dec. 09, 2011  7:10 PM
 
Between the crazy launches and weight differences, Tiering is becoming pretty dicey, but it is still the best way we can inform people of what should work for them, especially as it takes into account tournament usage/success, and gives as a general idea of what to expect.

Keep in mind, also, that attack isn't the only thing requiring skill, Defense has a lot of extra depth. For example, any attack combo that doesn't hit the stadium and move straight away (it kinda "stalls" in place) can be easy prey for an aggressively launched MF-H Basalt Aquario BD145CS, with a decently manipulable CS, and plenty of people, including myself, have used that combo to defeat stamina in tourneys through aggressive launching.
Dec. 09, 2011  7:15 PM
 
Agreed. Usually, I would not worry about tier so much but after having Bluezee explain it to me better and how skill can definitely affect tier more than anything else, I had to figure out what I was missing and revive this thread. Also, a lot of your experiences have also influenced this better understanding.

I also wanted to note that Defense also requires skill but I had nothing to base that on considering no new defense combo threads came up and I generally do not use the mainstream defense combos since I use my own versions. I am not sure if Basalt BD145 should be considered for something that takes skill because ANY player can use that and do well against a large amount of things.
Dec. 09, 2011  7:16 PM
 
Spin:-That combo is basically very hard to get good results with it without skill.While VariAres,since it is very aggressive,it may be hard to control,it needs skill to control it,but mastering VariAres itself is easier than mastering Hell Libra 100R2F.Although Skill is very important,it needs to be reminded that a win success also depends on the tier too and not Skill alone.As for defense,it needs skill,but not as much as Attack.Many people fears to use Attack because of lack of skill.
Dec. 09, 2011  7:20 PM
 
(Dec. 09, 2011  7:16 PM)Whatzzer Wrote: Although Skill is very important,it needs to be reminded that a win success also depends on the tier and not Skill alone.

This is essentially what I am arguing against. If something like MF Hell Libra 100R2F can produce those results with certain users due to their level of skill, tier means nothing when it comes to a success rate if you have the right amount of skill. That combo is not on the tier list at all and is generally seen as outclassed however, it is very powerful with some players and they are able to take down top-tier combos with these outclassed parts. That should be a clear indication that skill is definitely more important.
Dec. 09, 2011  7:27 PM
 
It needs to be understood that the tier list is a guideline. It isn't meant to be an unchanging truth.

Of course certain Bladers will be able to do things that others can't, but even so, when you are able to do something that not many other Bladers can do, you can't all of a sudden claim that the tier list is 'wrong', 'useless', or 'doesn't mean anything'. It might be 'wrong' for you personally, but generally it represents what the best for most Bladers. And that's what matters when helping new Bladers understand what the 'best' combos are. From there, it's up to them to do their own research and their own testing to find out if what works for them personally is different from the tier list.
Dec. 09, 2011  7:30 PM
 
Understood. My general argument is that Tier shouldn't hold as much ground as Skill deserves because when you look at it from a competitive standpoint, the majority of battles and the results rely a lot on skill level, launch strength, and understanding of the game. Tier gives the general idea of what "should" work as opposed to what people generally see as what "doesn't" work. Does that make more sense?
Dec. 09, 2011  7:35 PM
 
Yes it does.Agreed.Most rookies don't have skill,so they depend on tier.Skill is really important,in fact,more important but without a good tier,it's not much of anything.An extremely skilled blader can't just kill MF-H Basalt Kerbecs BD145CS with Dark Wolf M145Q.
Dec. 09, 2011  7:36 PM
 
(Dec. 09, 2011  7:27 PM)Kei Wrote: It needs to be understood that the tier list is a guideline. It isn't meant to be an unchanging truth.

If this is true, then this mindset and idea need to be established within the community because it is not fair to members that are getting exceptional results to get shot down and have their results looked at as biased and/or falsified. There are a lot of comments on a lot of these threads from ALL varieties of member whether they are "advanced" or committee members that take the tier list way too seriously and immediate shut down threads saying that their results are impossible or illogical or even flawed.
Dec. 09, 2011  7:37 PM
 
I don't think what Kei has said is arguing with that at all, it really is just a general guide, and no substitute for actually trying things yourself Smile


Just want to add that using the tiers list still requires a lot of knowledge, things that don't work well, like Basalt Bull BD145WD can be made from the more recent lists, new parts are released and need time to be examined to be added, during that time they can dominate at tournaments, and even then, there are things that are commonly accepted but hard to test that don't affect the tier list quickly at all, like Clear Wheels (Aquario and Cancer seem to have taken Bull's crown in stamina), and other out-of-date parts do take time to be removed (though, that has improved of late). Man, it sounds like I'm just whining about the list, but that's not my intent here, I'm basically saying that even using the tiers list requires some understanding of the game and what works anyway. Tongue_out
Dec. 09, 2011  7:38 PM
 
(Dec. 09, 2011  7:30 PM)Spin-Sonic Wrote: Understood. My general argument is that Tier shouldn't hold as much ground as Skill deserves because when you look at it from a competitive standpoint, the majority of battles and the results rely a lot on skill level, launch strength, and understanding of the game. Tier gives the general idea of what "should" work as opposed to what people generally see as what "doesn't" work. Does that make more sense?

Skill is definitely invaluable, and it often does make the difference in competitive battles, but it's a lot harder to quantify and teach people than a generalized tier list. Experience also matters, and you obviously can't teach that.
Dec. 09, 2011  7:39 PM
 
(Dec. 09, 2011  7:35 PM)Whatzzer Wrote: Yes it does.Agreed.Most rookies don't have skill,so they depend on tier.Skill is really important,in fact,more important but without a good tier,it's not much of anything.An extremely skilled blader can't just kill MF-H Basalt Kerbecs BD145CS with Dark Wolf M145Q.

What you are describing here though is not so much as a question of skill but more so a question of knowledge. When you have knowledge of the game and a clear understanding of how wheels work, you would know that something as defense based at the Dark wheel and given the fact that it is even on an unstable attacking track and tip has no synergy and as a result, will not beat that Basalt BD145 under normal circumstances.
(Dec. 09, 2011  7:38 PM)Kei Wrote: Skill is definitely invaluable, and it often does make the difference in competitive battles, but it's a lot harder to quantify and teach people than a generalized tier list. Experience also matters, and you obviously can't teach that.

I see. I understand your view now. Thank you for your input. What I feel can be taught though is knowledge of the game. NOT JUST GENERAL KNOWLEDGE but an advanced understanding of how and why things have or do not have the potential to work. That in turn will inspire people to use that understanding and have a foundation so that skill may be applied to harden and solidify that foundation before they just have a tier list thrown at them.
Dec. 09, 2011  11:12 PM
 
I would have to say skill, basically because it takes skill to be able to figure out top-tier combos, especially if you don't know about the WBO, and sure, if you have top-tiers, you have a higher chance, but if you don't know when/how to use the combos, then all that is worthless.
Dec. 09, 2011  11:16 PM
 
That is knowledge,not skill.Can't you find the difference between them?Skill is something like your launches,power.
Edit:
th!nk:-I agree.There's not much to say for now.
Dec. 09, 2011  11:18 PM
 
Pretty sure everything worth saying has been said by now, honestly. Speechless
Dec. 09, 2011  11:39 PM
 
IMO it is an equal use of both. If i had to choose it would be skill. Purely design is a high factor, but the actual blader who develops it, there style, way they launch, there launch power, and most important of all: the interpretation of how the combo is to be used. i have used COMPLETELY outclassed blades to take out my opponents beyblades like midnight leone w105 r2f ageist a basalt combo with 230 and although seemingly impossible i won with a stadium out. thus in my choice, it is skill that makes a blader
Dec. 10, 2011  1:14 AM
 
I would say it is a mixture, but there is mostly skill. If a newbie tries to use a Variares R145RF against say, Dark ___ 145B, if the newbie can't use attack types, it's not going to work.
Dec. 10, 2011  1:27 AM
 
Unless they have some sort of medical condition, I find it hard anyone isn't able to use an attack type. Pull the string or cord, and that's it. Considering Variares recoil anyway, there's a great chance it'll KO at low spin should the noobie use a straight shot instead. (R145 balances it out so that banking won't make it slide shoot as with Beat R145) What does matter however is experience and knowledge; once you get a better understanding of the game and parts you can apply that to help you beat the opposition. Sure, go ahead and choose Variares R145, it's on the tier list but who are you playing against?

Launch Power Theory:

There is a maximum launch power, and a lot of us reach it. Here's the deal, AkirasDaddy made a video a while back regarding the modified rev up a while back, and another of the regular beylauncher. What he showed is that by reaching 4000 RPM on one, and on the other with higher maximum RPM, having achieved 6000RPM proves that there is a limit to the Beylauncher as had he not reached the 4000 limit, the Beylauncher would have the same max RPM as the Rev up, which it does not. We may not know if AD reached the limit for the rev up launcher, but the logic implies the beylauncher has a limit of 4000 RPM. Therefore, everyone saying that a majority of skill relies on launch power and fancy Bluezee launches (nobody worships him anymore? DSmile are for the most part, incorrect. Well, that's my opinion.

Special thanks to AD for helping me to reach this conclusion:
Source: youtube.com/AkirasDaddy
Dec. 10, 2011  1:44 AM
 
You cannot just 'pull the string' with attackers, you'll end up losing.

Have you ever used an RF?
Dec. 10, 2011  1:46 AM
 
@Mushy (or whatever you like to call yourself now): I don't see how you find it hard that anyone can not use attack types. People may not know how to use sliding shoot, which takes skill and practice, therefore self-koing or tornado stalling until there is absolutely nothing left. Also, your whole AkirasDaddy thing, well quite frankly, no one cares. You see, you are mentioning a modified Rev-Up video also mentioning that there are variables that we do not know. You are going off assumptions and just as there are videos showing whatever you are talking about, there are videos showing bladers (Bluezee especially who you seem to have some sort of unsual and funny gripe against) doing things that would seem impossible if this "limit" is in fact in place such as giving mint WDs very aggressive movement patterns while others can not do it no matter how hard they try.
(Dec. 10, 2011  1:44 AM)Dan Wrote: You cannot just 'pull the string' with attackers, you'll end up losing.

Have you ever used an RF?

LOL you beat me..
Dec. 10, 2011  1:53 AM
 
If I launch at the maximum power I can, I self KO (I need more practice now.)

Attack is largely about getting the maximum possible speed your control will allow, and then improving that control to get better speed. Launching without having the combo "stall" and be KO'd by a somewhat aggressive basalt CS combo is also a skill that must be learnt. Attack is the most complex type (it has to be, it is the "aggressive" type, as opposed to the "passive" defense and stamina types), and to dumb it down to "launch speed" is an insult.

It should be extremely obvious to everyone that Skill, or some form thereof (be it an affinity for certain combo's), is hugely important, especially if you consider knowing what to use to be part of a blader's skill. Furthermore, there is also bluffing, deception and mindgames, which no one will argue aren't hugely important.

Tier merely aims to rank what will work best for most people in a competitive environment, but it is by no means final, and is not a proper substitute for trying things yourself. We have all said "if it works for you, even if it is mf-f poison ketos m145q, use it." Honestly, if you can win a tournament with it, do so.

However, you generally cannot show up to a tournament with an mf variares ch120rf without having spun a beyblade and win, no matter how good it is, same with basically anything (except stamina, and even then, there are some more aggressive shots that can make the difference between winning and losing).

That said, BOTH factors are important, you can't entirely discount tier, because it is based on what works for most people in a competitive environment. Skill is what gets you there, though.


EDIT: If any of this doesn't make sense, I'm half asleep and it's very much train-of-thought, but it is the summation of my thoughts on the issue.
Dec. 11, 2011  1:09 AM
 
I really like this thread and see it has really drawn to a conclusion. When I first saw LDD;s attack potential, I thought it was total trash. I mean really 5/20 against Basalt GB145CS, that's a total failure. Till I got LDD I thought it was just a bulky trash LDrago propheter. Then th e day I got LLD, I was vary shocked to see it did incredable.

Original results 25% winning
Note: I do not have a MF-H and 1 of my MF's were broken. So to equalize capability I used no Metal faces, thus lowering Attack for LLD and defense for Basalt GB145CS.

LDD D125RF: 16/20 WTF
Basalt Aquario BD145CS: 4/20

80%. WHat a change from 25%

Also I believed in the theory of GP being better than LLD for a long time. It seemed to me the WBO top tier list (attack) was a total piece if trash. So mush debate oover who is better screwed it up. I know follow the italian metagame attack. GP is berrer in my opinion than LLD in most combos besides the destroyer MF Lightning LDrrago BD145LRF.
Dec. 12, 2011  9:49 AM
 
A tier list is a list of what works best. It's not something specific to beyblade. Other games have tiers too. In any game there are people skilled enough to not have to use the top tier. If you can get good results with something not on the tier list with your skill, that's good for you. But, you would likely get even better results if you used your skills with what's on the tier list.

Edit:
Here's an example:
In Super Smash Bros. Melee, Fox is in the top tier. Roy is close to the bottom tier. If you beat my Fox with your Roy, it doesn't mean Roy is better than Fox. It
just means you are better than me.

If you're really skilled enough to use Hell on your attack type against any top tier defense combo, that's fine, but with that skill, you'd probably have an even easier time with a better attack wheel.
Dec. 12, 2011  5:25 PM
 
Tier lists are not invalidated by skill in any way whatsoever.

Bad wheel in good hands can do good thing! Best wheel in good hands can do better thing!

Common sense is truly difficult.
Dec. 12, 2011  5:39 PM
 
(Dec. 12, 2011  5:25 PM)Hazel Wrote: Common sense is truly difficult.

I agree. Especially when common sense would say that if people would stop being so lazy and enhance their skill that they could indeed defeat things like stamina types with attackers like you are supposed to be able to. Unfortunately, the vast majority of people on here are, in the nicest way I can say it, horrible and lack that skill and advanced members/committee/ whatever people would like be be classified as are not excused from this sentence.

It's not a shot at anyone but just something that should be addressed. I am in no way trying to say that skill completely invalidates the tier list. In fact, I think the tier list can be useful HOWEVER when you see things like people getting less than 90% win rates with VariAres and Blitz and losing tournaments to stamina types and even defense types that should be sent flying with ease, a question of skill tends to come up especially when those same combos are being beaten by supposedly outclassed things.
Dec. 12, 2011  5:51 PM
 
(Dec. 12, 2011  5:39 PM)Spin-Sonic Wrote: Unfortunately, the vast majority of people on here are, in the nicest way I can say it, horrible and lack that skill...

That may possibly be the most arrogant and mean-spirited thing I've seen posted on this site in a long, long time.

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