But let us say that everyone has skill, as I think most of us know that it is definitely a variable in play : what happens ?

But let us say that everyone has skill, as I think most of us know that it is definitely a variable in play : what happens ?

Then it all comes down to who has more skill and then who uses their skoll more effectively in the given situation.

But let us say that everyone has skill, as I think most of us know that it is definitely a variable in play : what happens ?

Then it all comes down to who has more skill and then who uses their skoll more effectively in the given situation.

I'm quite sure she meant the same amount of skill in this given situation. If this did exist in the theoretical world, then tier would have to win because they are simply better.

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"In many ways, the work of a critic is easy. We risk very little, yet enjoy a position over those who offer up their work and their selves to our judgment. We thrive on negative criticism, which is fun to write and to read. But the bitter truth we critics must face, is that in the grand scheme of things, the average piece of junk is probably more meaningful than our criticism designating it so. But there are times when a critic truly risks something, and that is in the discovery and defense of the new. The world is often unkind to new talent, new creations. The new needs friends. Last night, I experienced something new: an extraordinary meal from a singularly unexpected source. To say that both the meal and its maker have challenged my preconceptions about fine cooking is a gross understatement. They have rocked me to my core. In the past, I have made no secret of my disdain for Chef Gusteau's famous motto, "Anyone can cook." But I realize, only now do I truly understand what he meant. Not everyone can become a great artist; but a great artist can come from anywhere."

-Anton Ego/Peter O'Toole (1932-2013)

skill would win,because there is a always a combo out there that can probably win,i also think even though your opponent may have some random combo and you have a top tier,it dosent all matter about how it looks or that it looks like a tier bey would beat it,because it also matters about the launch,how much power you put into it,how do you lauch it,and how high or low you lauch it,this is just my opinion

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GT: KJ Dayo

blader v
In pool, the only eqiupment you use is the cue stick. There are no other variables except player skill. So that arguement doesnt really compare to beyblades. I am an avid billiards player btw. And fighting game player. So i'd say i know a thing or two about tiers and skill.
Pretty much anything that is competitive or pvp related i play. Which is part of the reason why i like beyblades.

I never said pool and beyblade were the same. Only pointed out the physics aspect of both is what's contributes to the skill portion of each. However I steadfastly disagree that there is "no comparison". You say that u r an avid billiards player, "so u know a thing or two about skill and tier". A contradiction that leaves u with a mouth full of foot from where I'm standing. In your original post, you stated that simply power of the launch was all the control u have over the beyblade, an that's why u chose tier. I don't agree, so we will have to "agree to disagree". It seems to me that u may have been a offended by my earlier post. I meant u no disrespect. but when I read something I don't agree with and give my opinion, it's not a personal attack on your ideas or beliefs, reguadless of how misguided and Ill informed they may be. It's like I said... Just my 2 cents..

I just think a game like pool was a poorly chosen analogy. People won't search for the obscure physics parallel, but look at the obvious level of control one has over the determination of the winner. Beyblade is Choose, Shoot, Wait, End. Pool is Choose, choose, choose oh and choose some more.

But let us say that everyone has skill, as I think most of us know that it is definitely a variable in play : what happens ?

Then it all comes down to who has more skill and then who uses their skoll more effectively in the given situation.

I'm quite sure she meant the same amount of skill in this given situation. If this did exist in the theoretical world, then tier would have to win because they are simply better.

I knew exactly what she meant. That is why I addressed the idea that it also comes down to who uses their skill most effectively in a given situation.

And if they both know how to use their skill effectively the same way ?

I just think a game like pool was a poorly chosen analogy. People won't search for the obscure physics parallel, but look at the obvious level of control one has over the determination of the winner. Beyblade is Choose, Shoot, Wait, End. Pool is Choose, choose, choose oh and choose some more.

As I said, it's not suppose to be a complete comparison. Read my post. It's the physics of launching an shooting, where I draw a comparison. Also your second sentence holds no relevance to the conversation (faking intelligence is no substitute for the real thing). There are no "people" searching for a physics parallel. It's just one person (me), pointlessly defending a single abstract comparison to a couple of hard headed children. I've made my point, I stand by my analogy and all opinions previously stated. -W3rD

I'm too much of a consistency freak to even use RF, let alone for defensive purposes.

I think this is what Bluezee is trying to sum up when he says Tier vs. Skill. There's a lot of practice involved and potentially an evolution to a metagame when attackers come into play. Attack type beys are IMO the best way to play this game, but the inconsistancy of them is incredible. That's where skill really comes into play.

As of now, stamina is the dominate form of play worldwide, but what beats stamina? Attack types. What combos have players mostly been using to defeat stamina? Stamina.

Not to put you down by saying you lack skill, Bladestorm, I'm just using your statement as an example of what the mentality of each country's metagame has become.

One of the problems I have with the game is the solid categorising of beyblades into Attack/Defence/Stamina. I just see a beyblade as a standalone spinning top when it is not interacting with another one. For me, it is simpler, either it OutSpins or Knocks Out. I think the fundamental problem with the current tiering system is the categorisation into types.

But even that is a bad way of categorising, as attack types such as MF Meteo L drago 85RF/MF still OS RS/RSF and sometimes CS defence combos.

I think the categorising is fine, as you can say it's attack/stamina, defence/attack etc.

Or simply coin a new term like destabiliser.

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Oh, I meant is as the ways to achieve victory, not as categorising. OS and KO are too vague.

Oh, I meant is as the ways to achieve victory, not as categorising. OS and KO are too vague.

Like classifying a blade by concept? I.E. absorb/spin steal, destabilizer, compact, heavy defenser, upper attack, smash attack, grip attack, etc.

Oh, I meant is as the ways to achieve victory, not as categorising. OS and KO are too vague.

Like classifying a blade by concept? I.E. absorb/spin steal, destabilizer, compact, heavy defenser, upper attack, smash attack, grip attack, etc.

Yes, archetypical concept is how we (ControL_ and myself) describe our beyblades when talk amongst ourselves. Though we don't use WBO terms, but terms established in mechanics (physics based). Usually sounds like gibberish to people so we don't refer to it often on here!

Actually, I think you and Control_ should push for that evolution of terminology. You're right to say stamina, defense, and attack are too general. I think the tier list would be more accurate if it was classified by concept as a sub catagory. It would really broaden our knowledge of parts use if that was the case.

I completely agree with the three types being too vague, but I don't think we should disregard them. My vote would go to using the three types as a basis, then breaking further down into specifics.

Attack types can break down into all sorts of types such as
MF Pegasis 145RF - Force Smash Attacker
MF Lightning L-Drago H145R2F - Smash Attacker
Meteo L-Drago 85MF - Equalize Attacker

Defense types are a bit trickier, especially when you start using anti-meta concepts such as RF.
You can break standard RSF, CS, and RS combos down into two categories; low-track and high track.
Then you throw RF into the mix, and it can turn a mediocre part such as Rock in a very aggressive defense/attack type. Dan, MeteorKing, and I have been discussing combos such as MF-L Rock Cancer 85RF and Earth Cancer CH120RF that can defeat top-tier attack and stamina types, but still lose against standard low-track and high-track defense combos.

Stamina probably would be the easiest, as track is the main variable involved. Low track staminas, high track staminas, and destabilizers being the classification for stamina types.

Then you get into combination types such as Hell 230CS which could be classified as a defensive stamina type.

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Going Away Blow Out Sale! PM ME

Main problem I have is the low correlation the categories have with the actual physics behind beyblade. Force smash, Upper attack and Smash attack were adequate explanations in the plastic era. But now with Metal to Metal elastic collsion of particles, they are all the same: Elastic collision with a vector.

Also I would like it if people's names weren't attached to combos . People get touchy.

Main problem I have is the low correlation the categories have with the actual physics behind beyblade. Force smash, Upper attack and Smash attack were adequate explanations in the plastic era. But now with Metal to Metal elastic collsion of particles, they are all the same: Elastic collision with a vector.

Also I would like it if people's names weren't attached to combos . People get touchy.

Fixed that. No harm meant by it.

I know what you mean by the low correlation with attack types, those were used simply as filler. I still have yet to really see how people call that Pegasis combo a force smash as it always just smashes the opponent out, never into the stadium floor.

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Going Away Blow Out Sale! PM ME

I think the catogorising hasn't aged well with the transition from Plastics to HMS then to MFB. MFB's seem to be generic; you tweak the amount of collision you want with the wheel; you tweak the height with the track; you tweak the friction levels with the bottom.

With combos like the aforementioned MF-L Rock Cancer 85RF and Meteo L-Drago 85MF attack types have taken on new directions. It's no longer smash, upper, and force smash but defense attack, equalize attack, etc.

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Going Away Blow Out Sale! PM ME

Actually, I think you and Control_ should push for that evolution of terminology. You're right to say stamina, defense, and attack are too general. I think the tier list would be more accurate if it was classified by concept as a sub catagory. It would really broaden our knowledge of parts use if that was the case.

I helped Ozzy make a thread like this and it got shot down. I need to post the link. I knew we were right!

Well, when I logged on I wanted to write something here, but I didn't realize how far back this was. Oh well, I got something that I Hope is interesting.

This topic is Tier vs Skill.

So, what does tier involve?(in beyblade) : the combos

What does skill involve?(in beyblade) : the Person and the Combos

It seems kinda unbalanced. Skill's got two variables going for it, and tier has one.

I think a better argument is Knowledge vs Skill.

What does knowledge involve?(in beyblade) : the combo and the person.

Hooray! Balance.

So, did I bring this back just to say that? No, I'm going to go more in depth;

Someone with knowledge knows each part, how they interact, and how to counter them.

Someone with skill can use their combo to the fullest and eliminate any weakness, solve difficult situations, and always have a perfect launch.

Now the argument can go both ways easy.
So, back to the OP, where Bluezee mentioned the combo MF rock bull m145 es.
A person with knowledge should know how to counter that combo, even if it seems wonky or unusual, or unknown by others,
But the person with skill should know how to counter the counter, which the counter is it's weakness.

It can go back and forth forever. And that was just and example.

so, that's what I got to say. I think knowledge is a better term than tier in this argument.

That is exactly what deikailo has created and has a launch to go with it. She would be fine under any circumstance she should be fine. The combo I also posted is safe against anything as well. These combos are well thought out before they are used and posted.

I think your argument would be better if you acknowledge that her combo can be beaten by a top tier beyblade. It's her skillful launch that would help her against the whole top tier. She could do it with another beyblade too.

Also, I think that having more terms and sub categories could work if done right, but the most probable outcome is that people will just start creating mediocre/inadequate combos and try to push them as a specific type of beyblade. What I think would be good is if TT came out with a top tier Upper Atttack type wheel so that new players can really see a difference in types of attack types. That way, we wouldn't really need more categories. Most of these unorthadox combos people post are still attack types, defense types, or stamina types. They just don't do that job as well as other combos. Instead, they do another job, which ever job you designed them to do. But, having something prepared against the general is a better idea that preparing against something specific.

I'd like to point out that if you are arguing that it is your skill that makes you win with the unorthadox combo, then saying that your unorthadox combo is better than the top tier is a poor argument. The combo is not better than the top tier, you're just skilled. Following this kind of logic, you could also win tournaments with the top tier combos as well. Honestly, if you are really skilled, using top tier combos just makes winning easier.

The goal of beyblade is to minimize your chance of losing and maximize your chance of winning.

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Credit for the avatar and sig go to Nic. THANK YOU!

START LIVING BEFORE YOU START DYING

I believe this thread needs to be bumped. Over the past few weeks to a month or so, there have been a lot of skill discrepancies and combo potential discrepancies going on lately. A lot of these "outclassed" (more specifically Hell) parts have been popping up lately and showing some very interesting results that some may find very hard to believe or ABSOLUTELY impossible HOWEVER, skill and launch technique has clearly made an impact on those results.

Perfect example is this thread: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-MF-Hell-Libra-100-R2F

Now at first glance, you would say, "NO WAY! Hell can never be good especially at that height and in addition, most beys are higher now so it can not do anything" but that is quite the contrary. You see. That combo, along with a part like VariAres require a VERY specific amount of skill and/or launch technique. Not everyone can use it. Now we have to think of it this way. Despite how amazing VariAres is and ESPECIALLY considering it's attack power, is it really a good idea to have it on the Top-Tier list if it is so skill biased? Blitz is more user friendly with power very close to Vari so that is understandable to have on the list. Vari on the other hand can and DEFINITELY will produce different results based on the user and their skill level as opposed to some average player who just wants to use attack.

With this being said, I do believe that Skill, once again, is more important than Tier because if something like MF Hell Libra 100R2F can KO Basalt BD145CS so consistently with some users and not with others. I believe that skill has to also be taken into account before generalizing which parts are bad, good, and amazing ESPECIALLY if it is a matter of having the part become tier worthy.

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Karice is my name. Remember it when I defeat you.
Team: Spiral Bladers (Customizer)