World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc. Beyblade Discussion Beyblade General

The Italian Metagame

Jan. 18, 2011  9:51 PM
 
Hi guys,i'm an Italian user,and from yesterday i'm a veteran member for a two weeks trial,and sorry if sometimes my sentences are grammatically wrong.
I've read the "Veteran's section" every day,and in the last time i'm reading a lot of hypotesis about our Metagame based on Rubber Flat.
Fyuuor i'm going to take your post as example to explain something about us.
Well,you've said:

Quote:From the information I've been able to gather by watching Driger GT videos I've come to two conclusions. I believe that those Italian members whom competed in 'Play With The Panda' while being able to control an RF Combo Competitively were all using a significantly worn RF. This allows a user to control an RF combo significantly a lot easier while allowing them to still have enough raw Attack Power to defeat Defence Types and Stamina Types while completely avoiding Self KO's.

It's correct but not at all.
We use both worn RF,mint RF,and little used RF.
I'll give you facts, here our Top Tier List written by Yamislayer a knowledgeable italian user:

(Sep. 23, 2010  4:35 AM)Yamislayer Wrote: Tier List:


Attack


MF Vulcan Bull 85 RF [Light - Upper]
MF Lightning L Drago 85 RF [Light - Upper]
MF Gravity Perseus H145 RF [Heavy - Recoil]
MF Leone H145 RF [Heavy - Recoil]
MF Rock Bull H145 RF [Heavy - Recoil]

Defense

MF Earth Acquario/Bull R145/GB145/C145/100 RS
MF Gravity Perseus R145 RS


Stamina

MF Earth Acquario/Bull GB145 WD
Virgo DF145 SD/D
Burn Virgo DF145 SD/D


Combined:

MF Gravity Perseus 85/90 RF [Attack-Zombie]
MF Earth Bull/Acquario 85/90 RF [Anti Meta]
MF Virgo 85/90 RF [Anti Meta]
MF Leone R145 RSF [Defense-Attack Recoil]

If you see with attention these combos,it's completely uncorrect to think that all of them have a worn RF!
All of these are Top Tier because they must be played with a different range of RF starting from Mint RF to used RF!If you forget this premise,your argument is completely wrong.

Then you've continued with:
Quote:For the second factor I believe that during the early stages of MFB Italian Members simply preferred to use Attack Types while competing in smaller Tournaments with the large majority if not all using Attack Types which gave a false impression of the Italian Tournament Scene. During these smaller Tournaments the participants simply engaged in Attack VS Attack battles so a simple straight shot was proficient enough to win a battle, during this stage a Semi-Worn RF/Fresh RF was used for extra speed. There is footage of Italian Members encountering a Defence Type and losing without scoring a KO during this time, the Defence Combination ended up winning the entire Tournament.
Sorry,but also this hypotesis is wrong.
We've start to play Attack Types because we've seen that Defense Customization weren't competitive at 100% against MF+MW+CW+Track+RF,and is uncorrect also if you think that we've engaged Attack vs Attack generically.
In our Metagame you don't play an Attack Customization if your Beyblade hasn't got an RF as bottom. In this way, we don't play Attack vs Attack,but RF vs RF.
RF is a very versatile bottom, by his level of usury you can play it in different versions.
Also, we have never said that Attack combos with RF are unstoppable,but they have a large range of victory against other customization.
So if Defense customizations sometimes wins,it's normal; but the percentage is very low.

Quote:During the time of 'Play With The Panda' entrant numbers increased dramatically which meant more participants used Defence Types. In an attempt to counter the increased use of Defence Types participants began to switch to a significantly worn RF. Since the presence of Attack Types decreased as a direct result Attack VS Attack battles didn’t occur as much thus the tactic of using a Fresh/Semi - Worn RF with a straight shot was longer viable. Because of the increasing presence of Defence Types this forced Italian Members to control their RF combo but due to using a Fresh/Semi -Worn RF performing this task became incredibly difficult. In order to maintain an advantage over Defence Types whilst not using a Stamina Type and adding increased controllability Italian Members began to use a significantly worn RF. In the video footage of ’Play With The Panda’ the participants seen battling in the Finals are all launching at 100% or very close, though weirdly they're RF combination moves with only a fraction of the speed originally shown in the videos before ’Play With The Panda’ when Attack Types were prominent whilst 'Play With The Panda' is the first time in Driger GT's video footage that Italian Members have demonstrated any other shooting technique other then a straight shot.
The bold period is completely wrong: we use used RF to have Zombie Customizations and more grip on the Stadium floor with different power of launch.
Unfortunately tomorrow and the next Monday i've two exams at university so i can't demonstrate you with videos my words.
If it's not a problem,at the end of my exams i'll take the international Top Tier list:

Quote:ATTACK
Metal Face Lightning L-Drago 90/100/CH120 RF/R2F
Metal Face Pegasis 145 RF/R2F
Metal Face Vulcan Horuseus 85/90/100/CH120 RF/R2F

DEFENSE
Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy Earth Bull/Aquario 230/GB145 RS/RSF/CS

STAMINA
Virgo DF145/145 WD/SD/D
Burn Bull DF145/145 WD/SD/D
Earth Bull DF145/145 WD/SD/D

and i'll demonstrate you that with different level of RF (from Mint to used) i can defeat all of them with a big percentage of win ratio.
Jan. 19, 2011  1:07 AM
 
Just some random thoughts on the Italian metagame:
I really love how aggressive it is
I love that you have a section for "Balance" and "Anti-Meta"
You guys seem to use H145 too much when unecessary. Like with Leone and Gravity Peruseus, use either R145, WD145, or a plain track. With Rock use CH120/TorD125.
Your Defense section is lacking.
MF Gravity Peruseus 90RF is not at all a Zombie.


/2cents/
Jan. 19, 2011  1:34 AM
 
a few things to point out:
- i don't believe rock h145 rf and leo r145 rsf are top tier anymore
- combos must be updated with new metal faces (you'll notice there is no mf h anywhere)
- i believe 230 will change our metagame
- what we want while we use H145 is maximum recoil
- the defense combo with perseus is kinda strange, it was thinked to give rs good chances vs left spin users,
which usually win because RS is really bad at low rotations. still, perseus has a lot of recoil and if you shoot strong, you can ko stamina combos with that recoil.
- earth gb wd gets OS'd by other stamina top tier combos, but it can handle (just a little bit) attack combos, so yeah, outspins defense like it should and has some possibility against attack, which is good.
- perseus 90 rf is currently the best combo (230 will change this hopefully) cause it has no serious disadvantages.
also note that rf condition does a lot, but it easily outspins rs and rsf, mine in particular could outspin wb too (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAxxD1jePAw)
Jan. 19, 2011  4:57 AM
 
It really is not that hard to control RF without it being so worn. I'm really interested in your demonstration to take down the entire tier list with an attack combo. Has anyone done any tests on combos like MF Leone H145 RF? Why were you guys using it at such a high height?
Jan. 19, 2011  6:17 AM
 
桃太郎 and I tested MF Leone 145RF for sure, and someone else must have conducted tests before us, when we learned it was top-tier among the Italian userbase. It was not as good as MF Pegasis 145RF though.
Jan. 19, 2011  6:22 AM
 
I don't have time to respond in full right now, but I just want to say that taking down the entire top tier list (which is not completely up to date) with an RF custom would not be surprising in the least.
Jan. 19, 2011  9:34 AM
 
uhm yeah forgot to mention that mf leo h145 rf did pretty good in rf vs rf matchup,
still leo does not that well against 85 users, i left that combo in top tier list cause i think that 230 will do quite well against 85/90 users.
also, from my tests RS is really hard to take down except if you use a opposite spin bey.

I tested MF pegasis 145 RF (i got better results with ch120 anyway) and yes, i can say it does better than leo against defense combos, but i found it terrible in rf vs rf matchup.

edit: new (short video) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNf7igQGQtI
beyblade romagna team plays really aggressive, pasty 89 and i were the only worn rf users.
(still, if you play a worn rf and shot very WEAK with perseus 90 rf, you'll be able to win the major part of rf vs rf matchups by stealing spin)
Jan. 19, 2011  10:29 AM
 
I agree with yami.
A worn rf on grav90rf L, when throwed weakly, will win 90% of matches (rf vs rf).

Leo h145 RF is pretty good agaist "230".
We made a lot of tests during piadina&salame tournament and we noticed that low profile trak sucks against earth 230 wb, his "hummer effect" is very interesting.
Jan. 19, 2011  2:28 PM
 
I appreciate the feed back Galaxy, though I should have mentioned more clearly in my post that my hypotheses was just a theory and shouldn’t be mistaken as fact. I wasn’t sure whether or not what I posted was correct I simply thought that it sounded plausible so I posted my theory hoping that somebody would be able to shed some light on the subject. Thanks for clearing that up.

(Jan. 18, 2011  9:51 PM)Galaxy Wrote: Sorry,but also this hypotesis is wrong.
We've start to play Attack Types because we've seen that Defense Customization weren't competitive at 100% against MF+MW+CW+Track+RF,and is uncorrect also if you think that we've engaged Attack vs Attack generically.

Hmm… that’s an interesting way at looking at it, simply because Defence Types fail to record a 100% win rate you opt to use Attack Types in an attempt to exploit that flaw.

Though I need to know since you said that the Italian Community noticed the weakness in Defence Types that they opted for Attack Types, that means that the majority of Italian participants whom entered a Tournament would have done so with an Attack Type due to that specific weakness you spoke of about Defence Types. If that is true than that could make part of my hypothesis true. Do you know how many participants entered the first few MFB Tournaments?

Quote:For the second factor I believe that during the early stages of MFB Italian Members simply preferred to use Attack Types while competing in smaller Tournaments with the large majority if not all using Attack Types which gave a false impression of the Italian Tournament Scene.

Random question, why no MF - H for Defence Combos?
Jan. 19, 2011  2:36 PM
 
(Jan. 19, 2011  1:34 AM)Yamislayer Wrote: a few things to point out:

- combos must be updated with new metal faces (you'll notice there is no mf h anywhere)

(answering Fyuoor)
Jan. 19, 2011  3:15 PM
 
(Jan. 19, 2011  6:22 AM)Kei Wrote: I don't have time to respond in full right now, but I just want to say that taking down the entire top tier list (which is not completely up to date) with an RF custom would not be surprising in the least.


Of course,but if you say me this,you should be agree that all your tier list is useless, except for Attack Combos because at this point there's no reason to play other combos like Stamina or Defence!
And this is exactly our idea:

Attack>Def
Attack>Stamina

so we play:

Atk vs Atk
Atk vs Spin Stealers/Attack
Jan. 19, 2011  3:21 PM
 
The main problem is that yeah, rs has a really good % against attack combos. the main problem is that opposite spin would shut it down, and if you consider that perseus is the most used combo, playing rs is kinda risky
Jan. 19, 2011  3:25 PM
 
(Jan. 19, 2011  3:21 PM)Yamislayer Wrote: The main problem is that yeah, rs has a really good % against attack combos. the main problem is that opposite spin would shut it down, and if you consider that perseus is the most used combo, playing rs is kinda risky


Exactly.
In our MG is risky play Bey+RS, because the most used Beys are LLDrago and Gravity Perseus that in Left are an awesome choice against RS.



(Jan. 19, 2011  2:28 PM)Fyuuor Wrote: I appreciate the feed back Galaxy, though I should have mentioned more clearly in my post that my hypotheses was just a theory and shouldn’t be mistaken as fact. I wasn’t sure whether or not what I posted was correct I simply thought that it sounded plausible so I posted my theory hoping that somebody would be able to shed some light on the subject. Thanks for clearing that up.
It's been a pleasure =)

Quote:
(Jan. 18, 2011  9:51 PM)Galaxy Wrote: Sorry,but also this hypotesis is wrong.
We've start to play Attack Types because we've seen that Defense Customization weren't competitive at 100% against MF+MW+CW+Track+RF,and is uncorrect also if you think that we've engaged Attack vs Attack generically.

Hmm… that’s an interesting way at looking at it, simply because Defence Types fail to record a 100% win rate you opt to use Attack Types in an attempt to exploit that flaw.

Though I need to know since you said that the Italian Community noticed the weakness in Defence Types that they opted for Attack Types, that means that the majority of Italian participants whom entered a Tournament would have done so with an Attack Type due to that specific weakness you spoke of about Defence Types. If that is true than that could make part of my hypothesis true. Do you know how many participants entered the first few MFB Tournaments?
To be honest i don't know (because i'm here by Jun and i'm the tournaments manager from July,so first i don't know what's happened!) ,but consider that here we have a lot of shops were we can play before tournaments,so maybe at the tournament most of us has gone directly with Attack combos, considering that defense combos aren't so good against them.

Quote:For the second factor I believe that during the early stages of MFB Italian Members simply preferred to use Attack Types while competing in smaller Tournaments with the large majority if not all using Attack Types which gave a false impression of the Italian Tournament Scene.

Random question, why no MF - H for Defence Combos?
Because our Tier list must be updated XD
It's one month old and it doesn't consider the new releases =)
Jan. 20, 2011  6:42 PM
 
RF actual is the most versatile bottom. I prefer a worn RF for defence then a WD or WB, and mostly also then RS [i haven't a RSF]!

I also think that difference in our metagame is due also to differences in the techniques used to launch, and also in the power that we use in it.
I have never seen a non-italian video in which bladers launch as strong as in our tournaments.

I could be wrong, but here everybody think so.
Jan. 20, 2011  10:20 PM
 
for PURE defense, rs is better, but rf can stand against an opposite spin bey.

about shooting: i watched some videos and some people could shoot strong enough.
our metagame needs to be updated with the use of 230.
Jan. 21, 2011  9:26 AM
 
(Jan. 20, 2011  10:20 PM)Yamislayer Wrote: for PURE defense, rs is better, but rf can stand against an opposite spin bey.

In my experience, a very very very worn RF is better than RS because it's like a "rubber ball"
Jan. 21, 2011  9:34 AM
 
(Jan. 21, 2011  9:26 AM)vb_mich Wrote:
(Jan. 20, 2011  10:20 PM)Yamislayer Wrote: for PURE defense, rs is better, but rf can stand against an opposite spin bey.

In my experience, a very very very worn RF is better than RS because it's like a "rubber ball"
I think a this point it would be illegal to use.
Jan. 21, 2011  9:57 AM
 
did some test with my first ever rf and rs still seems better imho, still speaking about pure defense.


anyway let's move on! I'd be glad tohear more opinions about our metagame.
Jan. 21, 2011  3:30 PM
 
Yeah, it's better, but it has even LESS Stamina and is more likely to get love bumped out.
Jan. 23, 2011  1:22 AM
 
http://www.youtube.com/user/DeltagamesTV...geWdk4EiKM

abused rubber on 230 Grin
Jan. 24, 2011  5:31 PM
 
Would be intresting to see that 230 combo VS MF Leo H145 RF or MF Pegasis 145 RF [RF mint or semi-mint]...

However i think 230 is the best part since such a long time.
Jan. 25, 2011  12:45 AM
 
The H145 would do nothing though?
Jan. 25, 2011  12:55 AM
 
(Jan. 23, 2011  1:22 AM)Arenanet Wrote: http://www.youtube.com/user/DeltagamesTV...geWdk4EiKM

abused rubber on 230 Grin

I've tried 230 as an Attack Type and the results I recorded weren't that great. Sure it performs well against other Attack Types, however it performance against Defence and Stamina types is very mediocre.

I think using 230CS is a better option, it allows 230 to be practically immune to most Attack Types whilst being able to Out Spin Defence and Stamina Types.
Jan. 25, 2011  1:25 AM
 
(Jan. 25, 2011  12:55 AM)Fyuuor Wrote:
(Jan. 23, 2011  1:22 AM)Arenanet Wrote: http://www.youtube.com/user/DeltagamesTV...geWdk4EiKM

abused rubber on 230 Grin

I've tried 230 as an Attack Type and the results I recorded weren't that great. Sure it performs well against other Attack Types, however it performance against Defence and Stamina types is very mediocre.

I think using 230CS is a better option, it allows 230 to be practically immune to most Attack Types whilst being able to Out Spin Defence and Stamina Types.

But i think also that CS owner must know what he do. A used CS goes in Attack mode easier than when it's new. So you could have a 230 in Attack mode if you're launch isn't perfect by a certain point of usury.
Jan. 25, 2011  4:43 AM
 
I only have the problem of a CS moving into Attack Mode if it's been quite heavily used, even then it only circles the Stadium a little before shifting back into Stamina Mode. The movement speed of my severely worn CS isn't nowhere near as fast as when a fresh CS is knocked into Attack Mode. I find the speed of a worn CS circling the stadium is comparable to that of SF.

I don't think it's that hard to control a CS since all that's needed is a Straight Shot over the center of the Stadium, I find it to be certainly a lot easier then trying to control an RF combo.
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