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TH170 vs 230

Oct. 10, 2011  3:18 PM
 
(Oct. 09, 2011  11:03 PM)th!nk Wrote: BeybladeStation: "suiting in"? Man, I miss when you used to be able to post in clear, simple English.
DO you not know that it is just a term that means "getting ready"? Man, I miss when you used to be a little nicer, post in clear, simple explanations.

As for B:D, I would think that 230 would get caught under that fire, and that it would be nearly unimpossible for TH170 not to defeat B:D..

Oct. 10, 2011  11:07 PM
 
I think I would be more aware of it being a term for getting ready if it *actually were* a term for "getting ready". It certainly isn't, however. Your most recent post in this thread, other than the reply to me, is almost unintelligible. You used to be able to post clearly before you started trying to use words and terms you obviously don't understand/that don't actually exist. Maybe I'd be nicer had you made even the slightest effort to improve since I PM'd you about it a month or two back. :\

ANYWAY, enough of this off-topic argument. PM me or whatever, idk.

230 vs TH170 for stamina:
I think 230 should be better for solo-spin, it's weight distribution is more even, etc etc, though I am not sure what effect the various heights of TH170 would have. Some comparative solo spins between 230 and the three heights of TH170 would resolve this pretty much.

In battle, TH170 tends to OS similar combo's on 230, if put at the 220 height. I am not sure how it does against other heights, however. Again, testing is what we need here. TH170 would, however, have some small advantage against most opposing attackers in my experience.

However, to adapt the old adage, "Testing is worth a thousand words". There's really not much more to say until said testing is done.
Oct. 12, 2011  3:59 PM
 
Well, according to what I have observed (um, read around would be appropriate), TH170 has been considered great for its versatility. No matter what, changing heights has always been good. It really helps in tourneys.
Well, 230 wouldn't be as great as TH170 when it comes to Defense, IMO. But, for Stamina, 230 is better. TH170's mechanism kinda makes it unbalanced thus making it OK for Stamina.
Also, considering the combo which Hero and th!nk made, TH170 is great for Anti-Meta too.
The versatility implies 'more uses'. This is the very reason why TH170 is considered superior to 230 in some cases.
Oct. 12, 2011  5:15 PM
 
(Oct. 12, 2011  3:59 PM)Janstarblast Wrote: Well, according to what I have observed (um, read around would be appropriate), TH170 has been considered great for its versatility. No matter what, changing heights has always been good. It really helps in tourneys.
Well, 230 wouldn't be as great as TH170 when it comes to Defense, IMO. But, for Stamina, 230 is better. TH170's mechanism kinda makes it unbalanced thus making it OK for Stamina.
Also, considering the combo which Hero and th!nk made, TH170 is great for Anti-Meta too.
The versatility implies 'more uses'. This is the very reason why TH170 is considered superior to 230 in some cases.

If you read the first post, it says :

(Oct. 09, 2011  3:40 PM)Galaxy Wrote: Hope this is not a discussion already done.
I would focus the discussion on TH170 and 230 Tracks.
Wich is in your opinion the best Track in terms of Defense?
I don't want opinions about their versatility,of course.

Oct. 12, 2011  5:24 PM
 
Relic- Ah, my bad. Well, I also mentioned somethings about Defense and Stamina uses. So, that would be OK, I guess.
Well, I read the OP, but what I meant to say was, the only reason why TH170 is considered better is versatility. Otherwise, 230 is still too good. Smile
Oct. 12, 2011  10:47 PM
 
I think TH170 is the better part for defense. In fact I think it has a advantage over 230 in most situations.
Since TH170 has a height change feature, it has was much better chance of of winning compared to 230(On Basalt) against Vari Ares BD145RF(Which is diffidently the best attack bey period, as in straight out power.) I've learned this through tourney experience and testing. It seems to me that it is diffidently better for combos like MF-H Basalt Kerbecs TH170WF. If you look at the two tracks closely, on 220 the track it very thin, except for the base. I think that is has less balance than 230, as 230 is thicker. It seems that TH170 is at just the right height at 220. It can get under 230, while still making contact with the opponents wheel. And is kinda unbalanced, but it can still sturdy if its on CS or RB.(Which I prefer over RS) Since its unbalanced on some tips(Tips that cause motion like WF, XF, ect.) it has a pretty good chance of "hammering" the opposing bey. The other heights options on TH170 are pretty useful. While 170 is lower than 220, it is still pretty high and is an interesting height that I need to do more testing on.
And there is a trump card between this 230 and TH170 issue, especially on Basalt 230/TH170. It is Scythe, Which almost always beasts basalt on high heights. Some of the best combos according to my testing are:
-MF-H Scythe Cronos TH170RB
-MF-H Scythe Cronos 230CS

Getting back to the whole balance issue of TH170, I also feel that 230 usually lasts than TH170(220) stamina wise. As, 230 can out spin it sometimes. But, that's rare anyways.
I'll have to do more research and testing on this subject. Tongue_out
(Oct. 10, 2011  11:07 PM)th!nk Wrote: Some comparative solo spins between 230 and the three heights of TH170 would resolve this pretty much.

In battle, TH170 tends to OS similar combo's on 230, if put at the 220 height. I am not sure how it does against other heights, however. Again, testing is what we need here. TH170 would, however, have some small advantage against most opposing attackers in my experience.
I'm willing to do that, as I'm not very active in the meta-game so much anymore, as people like you mostly got it covered. Smile
But, the OS comparison data is really an product of the combo, and the match-up. I feel that sometimes 230 has a slightly better OS than 230 in some situations. I have seen that 230 some times just "crashes" with unbalanced wheels as it is slowing down. While, (like I said before) I think 230 is more stable than TH170, and i think it has a better OS, especially on tips that aren't WD/D/SD.
Yes, I also believe that TH170 has a better chance against defense beys.


Oct. 18, 2011  2:36 AM
 
Here is some testing...

Conditions:
- Every draw was re-tested.
- I used a Beylauncher LR and Beylauncher[R].
- Vari Ares was always launched second, and it was always launched in left spin. Vari ares was also launched with the "Sliding Shoot" technique.
- Each Match is consistent of 15 battles each.
- Each battle was conducted in a BB-10 Takara Tomy Attack Stadium.
- MF-H Basalt Kerbecs TH170WD was always launched on 195 height.
- Each win percentage with a repeating decimal was rounded to the nearest hundreds. EX: .677777778=.68

TH170vs230: WD (Click to View)
TH170vs230: D (Click to View)
TH170vs230: CS (Click to View)
Another round of testing to also show that D is better than WD Tongue_out
My testing shows that Th170 does have a better chance of beating a attack bey than 230. Especially because of the height change feature, So, please comment on the testing if you want. I'm trying to get more involved in the meta-game again so it would be nice to see a conversation.
Oct. 18, 2011  3:39 AM
 
Your tests show it has a better chance of beating an attack bey.
Those results are in no way normal man, practice launching. I'm serious how did you not get 100% for VariAres?
Only weak launching (which would probably lead to near 100% for Basalt) could receive such results from a decent attacker.. :\
Oct. 18, 2011  12:23 PM
 
(Oct. 18, 2011  3:39 AM)Dan Wrote: Your tests show it has a better chance of beating an attack bey.
Those results are in no way normal man, practice launching. I'm serious how did you not get 100% for VariAres?
Only weak launching (which would probably lead to near 100% for Basalt) could receive such results from a decent attacker.. :\
I'm not weak launching, so it must be my RF then. But, I'm pretty sure that vari ares doesn't beat MF-H Basalt Kerbecs TH170CS 100% of the time.
Lol...
My launch makes a RSF and RB look like a RF and my WD act as a XF. When I launch my hardest.
Oct. 18, 2011  12:38 PM
 
(Oct. 18, 2011  12:23 PM)othellog Wrote:
(Oct. 18, 2011  3:39 AM)Dan Wrote: Your tests show it has a better chance of beating an attack bey.
Those results are in no way normal man, practice launching. I'm serious how did you not get 100% for VariAres?
Only weak launching (which would probably lead to near 100% for Basalt) could receive such results from a decent attacker.. :\
I'm not weak launching, so it must be my RF then. But, I'm pretty sure that vari ares doesn't beat MF-H Basalt Kerbecs TH170CS 100% of the time.
Lol...
My launch makes a RSF and RB look like a RF and my WD act as a XF. When I launch my hardest.
The Problem, who is not an attack type blader, used Variares BD145RF against my Basalt Aquario TH170CS and at the slightest tap, he would KO me, even when I was weak launching at like, 20% power. The only way I was able to beat him was by intimidating him during his launch by telling him he would never be able to defeat me.

Oct. 18, 2011  1:04 PM
 
Comparing a 230 to a 220 scenario, I d still opt for 230

Although at a tall height, the 1mm is almost minute, Basalts mw is caved in. The 1mm could determine whether the combo lives or dies from an attack below due to more metal or cw contact.

Also doesn't 220 have a more rigid design as compared to 230? 230 has almost nothing for a lower height attacker to grip on as compared to 220.

Besides, th170 is made out of multiple pieces of plastic. Though it does not rattle as much as ch120 it is definitely more susceptible to having balance issues as compared to 230 which is a single piece.

Versatility is definitely a plus but I don't see why one should use it if the user already has a fixed concept on how his combo should be used.
Oct. 18, 2011  11:13 PM
 
(Oct. 18, 2011  12:38 PM)Deikailo Wrote:
(Oct. 18, 2011  12:23 PM)othellog Wrote:
(Oct. 18, 2011  3:39 AM)Dan Wrote: Your tests show it has a better chance of beating an attack bey.
Those results are in no way normal man, practice launching. I'm serious how did you not get 100% for VariAres?
Only weak launching (which would probably lead to near 100% for Basalt) could receive such results from a decent attacker.. :\
I'm not weak launching, so it must be my RF then. But, I'm pretty sure that vari ares doesn't beat MF-H Basalt Kerbecs TH170CS 100% of the time.
Lol...
My launch makes a RSF and RB look like a RF and my WD act as a XF. When I launch my hardest.
The Problem, who is not an attack type blader, used Variares BD145RF against my Basalt Aquario TH170CS and at the slightest tap, he would KO me, even when I was weak launching at like, 20% power. The only way I was able to beat him was by intimidating him during his launch by telling him he would never be able to defeat me.
At what height?
Aquario is lighter than Kerbecs, but, I believe you so there might be something wrong with my RF. :\

(Oct. 18, 2011  1:04 PM)Pcyborg Wrote: Comparing a 230 to a 220 scenario, I d still opt for 230

Although at a tall height, the 1mm is almost minute, Basalts mw is caved in. The 1mm could determine whether the combo lives or dies from an attack below due to more metal or cw contact.

Also doesn't 220 have a more rigid design as compared to 230? 230 has almost nothing for a lower height attacker to grip on as compared to 220.

Besides, th170 is made out of multiple pieces of plastic. Though it does not rattle as much as ch120 it is definitely more susceptible to having balance issues as compared to 230 which is a single piece.

Versatility is definitely a plus but I don't see why one should use it if the user already has a fixed concept on how his combo should be used.
Yup, that is true, but...
That can come to an advantage in some cases. Since TH170 is less stable it has a better chance of hammering a opponent. That is one of the reason why MF-H Basalt Kerbecs TH170WF has TH170 instead of 230.

Oct. 19, 2011  4:30 AM
 
But I believe the whole point is to compare 230 and 220 against everything else. 220 just has too many weakness imo.

Like I said, the whole concept is by the user itself. If his concept is to have a tower bey, then anything else the bey can do is just a secondary effect. Its the exact same rationale why ch120 is not oftened used in a 145 scenario. Cos 145 on its own have way better performance. In this case the 145 in ch120 is just a secondary effect.


Oct. 19, 2011  8:36 AM
 
I say Th 170 is better for defense and 230 better for stamina that´s now clear, but Th 170 is better because you have 3 mods you can choose.
Oct. 19, 2011  11:29 PM
 
(Oct. 19, 2011  4:30 AM)Pcyborg Wrote: But I believe the whole point is to compare 230 and 220 against everything else. 220 just has too many weakness imo.

Like I said, the whole concept is by the user itself. If his concept is to have a tower bey, then anything else the bey can do is just a secondary effect. Its the exact same rationale why ch120 is not oftened used in a 145 scenario. Cos 145 on its own have way better performance. In this case the 145 in ch120 is just a secondary effect.
Not really dude, TH170 is much more stable and has way lees if any problems compared to CH120.
195 is not a "secondary affect", that would be 170. I believe that 195 is considered "towering". As others have said, TH170 has a much different shape than 230. That is the main factor. It is a pretty stable piece(As in the Lock feature). I mean, 230 outclassed 85/90 when it was released. 220 also outclasses 85 also. In this case though, I'm not sure that 220 has really outclassed 230. The height change is a really nice feature, but the difference in shape and the balance of the whole piece is the only thing that's holding my opinion back. (Some of my comments you've already stated) If it weren't for that, I would consider TH170 to outclass 230.
Oct. 20, 2011  7:18 AM
 
TH170 is of course more stable. But its still multiple pieces. No matter how strongly enforced the design maybe, some degree of rattling/side tilting will definitely occur, especially with Basalt which is naturally imbalance. And I'm referring to 220 and 230 respectively.

I believe 195 is something else altogether. Though I do agree on it being towering but I'd still place it as "secondary". If the user had in mind in just using the tallest option, everything else is secondary, which was why I stress the user's concept. Comparing Th170 (195) to 230 wouldnt be fair seeing that they're vastly different in height hence slightly different strength and weaknesses, which was why I was stressing on 220 instead. I'm quite sure everyone here are well informed in regards to how 195 should function.

Regardless, the OP states which is the better option for def. I'd still opt for 230 for its highest reach and plastic design/make.

Something like TH170 would definitely be more suited in more balance based/offensive combos instead where variability matters more and where the shape could be put to good use.


Oct. 20, 2011  7:33 AM
 
Not sure how much this would help but here is why TH170 is prefered in the custom MF-H Basalt Kerbecs ___WF.

230 results: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-MF-H-Bas...s-230WF-MF
TH170 results: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-MF-H-Bas...cs-TH170WF

I'm quite surprised to see it being mentioned quite a bit on this thread. Haha.
Oct. 20, 2011  12:39 PM
 
(Oct. 20, 2011  7:18 AM)Pcyborg Wrote: TH170 is of course more stable. But its still multiple pieces. No matter how strongly enforced the design maybe, some degree of rattling/side tilting will definitely occur, especially with Basalt which is naturally imbalance. And I'm referring to 220 and 230 respectively.

I believe 195 is something else altogether. Though I do agree on it being towering but I'd still place it as "secondary". If the user had in mind in just using the tallest option, everything else is secondary, which was why I stress the user's concept. Comparing Th170 (195) to 230 wouldnt be fair seeing that they're vastly different in height hence slightly different strength and weaknesses, which was why I was stressing on 220 instead. I'm quite sure everyone here are well informed in regards to how 195 should function.

Regardless, the OP states which is the better option for def. I'd still opt for 230 for its highest reach and plastic design/make.

Something like TH170 would definitely be more suited in more balance based/offensive combos instead where variability matters more and where the shape could be put to good use.
Ya, that my purpose of using it too. 230 can also be used to beat 220 consistently.

Yup I agree with that. There is still a bit of rattleing though...
Dude I've already said that. Tongue_out
Oct. 20, 2011  3:12 PM
 
What? 230 beating 220 constantly? What combo(s) would this be in then?
Oct. 20, 2011  3:19 PM
 
Um... I think he meant with Basalt but 220 is able to beat 230 for your info othellog
Oct. 20, 2011  11:52 PM
 
i think th170
Oct. 21, 2011  12:43 AM
 
(Oct. 20, 2011  11:52 PM)Iron Eagle22 Wrote: i think th170

Do you have a reason for that?
Oct. 21, 2011  1:26 AM
 
(Oct. 20, 2011  3:12 PM)th!nk Wrote: What? 230 beating 220 constantly? What combo(s) would this be in then?
MF Basalt Aquario 230 WD vs MF-H Basalt Kerbecs TH170/WD/D/SD
And then Scythe 230 takes care of most of the high Basalt combos.

Oct. 21, 2011  11:19 AM
 
ehh othellog, 85 and 90 track doesn´t outclassed by 230 and 220, they are the most different tracks
Nov. 18, 2011  3:18 PM
 
(Oct. 21, 2011  1:26 AM)othellog Wrote:
(Oct. 20, 2011  3:12 PM)th!nk Wrote: What? 230 beating 220 constantly? What combo(s) would this be in then?
MF Basalt Aquario 230 WD vs MF-H Basalt Kerbecs TH170/WD/D/SD
And then Scythe 230 takes care of most of the high Basalt combos.

Must be because of the extra wobble from WD, seeing as with both on CS (and MF) it's entirely opposite, at least for me. I haven't tried 230WD vs TH220CS. But still you can't say 230 can beat TH220 consistently, as there are plenty of times when it's the other way around Speechless


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