It should be dominating.

well that's the thing.

Attack should have been dominating say, 8 months ago.

They didn't.

And they had it easier than now.

Well, we already know there is no hope for attackers to be extremely prevalent compared to the other 2 categories. What I meant though is that anyone who used VariAres should have been able to beat a ton of other peoples customizations.

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shout out 2 kai-v 2.

The Complete Competitive HMS Resource

I'd like to see how Basalt stamina customs do against Basalt defense customs.. :V
I still think if certain Scythe and VariAres combinations can defeat Basalt (Defense and Stamina customs) than we're okay.. Which is apparently the case. Has anyone even used VariAres in a tournament yet? (other than Deikailo) It should be dominating.

We've been over this issue to death, really - Attack types will never "dominate" on a widespread scale. Yes, regionally, some areas DO experience higher amounts of attack usage. However, the larger consensus is that they're too risky to use, or too hard for most tournament goers to master in favor of Defense/Stamina. This has been repeated ad-nauseum, and is no less true now than ever before.

The status of attack-type usage should not really be a consideration, or even a point anyone mentions in this discussion, anymore. It's well-established. The horse is dead. People "should", and easily "could", but won't.

EDIT(you posted while I was getting a drink and I didn't see it before hitting post, lol):

Well, we already know there is no hope for attackers to be extremely prevalent compared to the other 2 categories. What I meant though is that anyone who used VariAres should have been able to beat a ton of other peoples customizations.

I'm not entirely certain about how much actual use Vari is seeing right now - but its impact is nonetheless irrelevant to this discussion because of the points we've already mentioned. What matters is D v D, D v S, and S v S, right now. (D being Defense and S being Stamina, obviously)

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Some manner of Octopus.

Well, we already know there is no hope for attackers to be extremely prevalent compared to the other 2 categories. What I meant though is that anyone who used VariAres should have been able to beat a ton of other peoples customizations.

I still don't think that's OK though.


Hazel, I think we should keep attack in this discussion. It's still part of beyblade, and isn't never used at all.

It wasn't a blanket statement or anything about how it should be used by all since it is so good. It was basically whoever balled up and used it should have done well. I am certain I am not the only one who would use it at a tournament, so I wondered if someone had actually done so and gotten decent results. lol quick to pounce on me.

I think it should be a serious point for someone to do a large amount of tests (with another person, or else it will mean carp all) with any and all prevalent Scythe combinations vs. all prevalent Basalt customizations. I think this is the most important thing we can do until some of us have B's to test with. :V

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shout out 2 kai-v 2.

The Complete Competitive HMS Resource

Well, we already know there is no hope for attackers to be extremely prevalent compared to the other 2 categories. What I meant though is that anyone who used VariAres should have been able to beat a ton of other peoples customizations.

I still don't think that's OK though.


Hazel, I think we should keep attack in this discussion. It's still part of beyblade, and isn't never used at all.

I was specifically talking about the status of its usage - which will not be changing any time soon on a large enough scale to impact things, which is why mentioning it is just going back in time in the discussion.

I think it should be a serious point for someone to do a large amount of tests (with another person, or else it will mean carp all) with any and all prevalent Scythe combinations vs. all prevalent Basalt customizations. I think this is the most important thing we can do until some of us have B's to test with. :V

This is pretty close to what I was saying earlier - if a decision doesn't need to be made ASAP in order to preserve the meta for the sake of tournaments, then we should take our available time during this gray period to do more Scythe versus Basalt testing to make absolutely sure any findings about the two are conclusive.

I have to mention again, though, that the idea of a metagame without Basalt just makes me giddy, if only(and entirely, really) due to the massive amount of variation it unlocks as a potentiate.

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Some manner of Octopus.

Genuinely curious here, is it a general consensus that a metagame without Basalt would be more interesting and arguably more fun?

I'm definitely in the opinion that it'd be a lot more fun.

That's what I've basically had as my main drive for my "Ban Basalt" opinion the whole time.

Genuinely curious here, is it a general consensus that a metagame without Basalt would be more interesting and arguably more fun?

This is basically the entire side of my "ban Basalt" argument, yes. More variation, more personal touches, more combos, more fun.

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Some manner of Octopus.

Ah, exactly. I ask exactly because of your and Hazel's posts, haha. I'd love to see more people for/against.

I'm on the fence again; nothing will stop people from taking the easy way out by using Stamina and Defense. (no matter how bad both get defeated by a really good attack bey, but hell, there aren't many of them so these 'easy-outers' won't get 1st because that great attack user will probably nab it, but a chance at 2nd or 3rd.)
And there is absolutely no way to motivate people to use attackers, unless of course they see others success with it. (k guise, lets all bring VariAres to our respective tournaments and all get 1st with it!!!!111)

So yeah I'd like someone to help me out here lol. Banning Basalt will make it easier for the select few who use attack, but it won't encourage attack more by any means. Do you guys get what I mean? My brain is a little scrambled ATM sooo.

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shout out 2 kai-v 2.

The Complete Competitive HMS Resource

At this point in time, Dan, I believe the primary incentive to banning Basalt is:

1. Preventing B:D Basalt combos from becoming the inevitable boogey monster of the metagame.

2. Allowing Defense to be something in which there are options, choices, and where personal preferrence isn't a death sentence.

Seeing other people's success with attackers will not motivate people to use them - I see people racing nascar, but that doesn't mean I'm confident that I could do it. A bit of an extreme metaphor, but it illustrates the point; the vast majority simply will not conform to a type that requires massive amounts more work - not to mention buying a new, expensive, imported stadium.

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Some manner of Octopus.

nothing will stop people from taking the easy way out by using Stamina and Defense. (no matter how bad both get defeated by a really good attack bey, but hell, there aren't many of them so these 'easy-outers' won't get 1st because that great attack user will probably nab it, but a chance at 2nd or 3rd.)

Banning Basalt will make it easier for the select few who use attack, but it won't encourage attack more by any means.

Yeah I'm in complete agreement with these two points.

This is how I see these points as better without basalt:
Quote 1: There's definitely a more diverse Stamina game without basalt. Other top stamina wheels have multiple heights that are equally as good as each other. That's definitely more diverse.

I think the closest (while probably not the best) example of this would be how stamina was when 230 first came out: 85>90-145, 230 approx. equal to 145 (when it's all summed up).

Quote 2: I don't see how this could possibly be a bad thing. (that sentence probably doesn't convey the message I wanted, haha) Is there people that normally would use attack but don't because of basalt? I would think so. That'd be the reason for me.

At this point in time, Dan, I believe the primary incentive to banning Basalt is:

1. Preventing B Basalt combos from becoming the inevitable boogey monster of the metagame.

I say if it ends up being far too good, we auto ban Basalt.

Seeing other people's success with attackers will not motivate people to use them - I see people racing nascar, but that doesn't mean I'm confident that I could do it. A bit of an extreme metaphor, but it illustrates the point; the vast majority simply will not conform to a type that requires massive amounts more work - not to mention buying a new, expensive, imported stadium.

Untrue.
BeyDays: Bey Crusade. Valentin wins second with Basalt TH170RS everyone is now thinking about that combination, perhaps not using it as only one person won with it, but it is still in their heads.

Lets say Kei goes on to Beyhem 2.5 and goes undefeated with MF-H VariAres CH120R2F. People around him will see this success, and others will read about it. Thinking, "he can do it, well maybe can I"

Though obviously a single, concentrated event cannot do this, but that is why my joke example included us all doing it at our respective tournaments; If it happens frequently enough people will be more comfortable with it since many people had success with it. Maybe I'm full of it, but the only reason I dared use a Basalt combination at High Park throwdown was because I saw other people use it, and most of all: win with it. Not just one person, but people from everywhere were having success so I thought if I pull it every once in a while it couldn't hurt. It did, though. I lost every match I used it in. (lol, attack4lyfe aint neva going to defense/stamina)
People wouldn't use it if they didn't think they'd do well. Get enough people to win copious amounts of tournaments (lol, okay maybe like 5 tournaments haha) and a lot of people will take a crack at it.

Hell, I may not have said this all correctly, but basically people are extremely affected by their peers.

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shout out 2 kai-v 2.

The Complete Competitive HMS Resource

The thing is, it's unrealistic to inspire a change on that large of a scale.

Using attack types absolutely requires infinitely more practice, dedication, and specific types of stadium. People are lazy, paranoid, and prefer the safe road - especially younger kids. You will not be likely to make even half of the tournament goers in the WBO switch to attack. It's not a safe choice - it's never a safe choice. This has been said far too many times, and this is the last time I'm saying it. You can keep arguing the point if you'd like, but... it's just unlikely.

Some regions do like attack more. And for every one person that prefers attack, there are dozens more that do not.

Peer pressure only works when large amounts of effort aren't the consequence for submitting to it.

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Some manner of Octopus.

I wasn't trying to propose this idea, or expect it to go further than a joke or two between all of us. It is completely un-realistic.
It is always a safe choice if you decide to practice. 'Specific types of stadium' can't really be an argument. Get a BB-10 and be serious, or not.

The thing is, it's unrealistic to inspire a change on that large of a scale.

hmmm :V I think it has been done before. I would give you some kind of witty back-talk, I just can't think of an example on the go. I think we should look back and see how exactly Wolborg MS became less of a hassle (other than a different stadium, it must have take more than that to make people KO Wolborg than be Wolborg.)

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shout out 2 kai-v 2.

The Complete Competitive HMS Resource

I thought Wolborg MS was mostly brought down by the release of newer parts that handled it better... Samurai Changer, I think? I forget.

Anyway, the Stadium point I was making is that not every tournament-goer has a BB-10 - in fact, I'd wager many of them do not. If switching types requires them to not only practice ten times as often, but ALSO drop fifty dollars on a stadium, they'll be even less likely to do it, was my point. Just clarifying.

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Some manner of Octopus.

The competitive ones, who usually win all the tournaments do. :V
Samurai Changer was just a reinforced Dark Effigy AR, a new stadium came out with larger exits. That alone would not have been enough to encourage attackers, though. Vulcan 85RF wasn't even used much more than attackers are now, and that was when MF-H Earth Bull GB145WB was still up on the tier-list.

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shout out 2 kai-v 2.

The Complete Competitive HMS Resource

Samurai Changer was just a reinforced Dark Effigy AR, a new stadium came out with larger exits. That alone would not have been enough to encourage attackers, though. Vulcan 85RF wasn't even used much more than attackers are now, and that was when MF-H Earth Bull GB145WB was still up on the tier-list.

Yes, that was enough to encourage Attackers. Not using an Attack type in TBTS is basically suicide in most cases.

Though it was not as prominent as it 'should' have been (given how laughable MF-H Earth Bull GB145WB is in terms of Defense these days), it was still more prominent. I think that with the release of B:D, we will see some increase in the use of Attack types regardless of whether or not Basalt is banned because of how easy it should be to KO, and how much people will spam it (this is assuming it does well against TH170 and 230 Stamina customs). Scythe B:D will also be prominent because it should defeat Basalt B:D, and given how thin Scythe is, it should be even easier to KO.

This increase will be even higher if Basalt is banned, because that would essentially take away any of the Defensive capabilities that a B:D combo would have. And finally, because of this increase in the frequency of Attack types being used, combinations which utilize RS and RB will become less risky to use, and therefore more common. The game will no longer be as narrow in terms of competitively viable parts, and as a result, the game will be much more balanced and enjoyable.

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I agree with what you've said Kei, but I'm somewhat hesitant on thinking attack will be used more often:

I think that with the release of B:D, we will see some increase in the use of Attack types regardless of whether or not Basalt is banned because of how easy it should be to KO, and how much people will spam it (this is assuming it does well against TH170 and 230 Stamina customs).

Didn't Earth and Burn Stamina used to be dominant? I remember seeing a tournament from quite a while back (I believe on Daegor's channel) where the winning combo was Burn Bull DF145SD or something almost identical.
Burn DF145SD is definitely easier to KO than Basalt B:D, whether we have tests for B:D or not.

Genuinely curious here, is it a general consensus that a metagame without Basalt would be more interesting and arguably more fun?

That's an interesting question, inasmuch as it assumes that everyone taking part in this discussion is also actually a part of the metagame. As someone who does play, I can say that the metagame is plenty fun for me as it stands, and becoming much more of a challenge.

I'm really trying to get my opinion across (if you haven't already noticed, haha) and hopefully convincing people.

Keepin' it goin'; both of these are from the Libra DF145BS BeyWiki Article:

After Libra was released and weighed, it did not take very long for it to shoot to the top of the MFB metagame in both Stamina and Defense customizations, and eventually a remarkably useful Balance customization, as listed above. Aside from it's circular, uninterrupted shape, it's insane weight in comparison with other Wheels is the main reason for its game-breaking power. The fact that TAKARA-TOMY imposed the 47g weight limit essentially means they admitted that it was a mistake to release Libra in the form that they did.

If it isn't obvious already, the reason that Libra was banned was that it transformed Beyblade into a game of rock-paper-scissors. Of course, inherently the game will always be this, but Libra allowed for no deviation. You either used Libra or you didn't win. The game revolved around defeating Libra, and that isn't what a good metagame looks like. There was no skill involved. Restricting Libra would have been a nice compromise for both sides, made it more difficult to police it's use in tournaments, so banning it outright was a much easier option.

The opposition towards banning Libra was incredibly high, especially among players who owned one, but among high level, competitive Bladers, the game had become incredibly boring. In the end though, through the banning of Libra, the Beyblade metagame was undeniably opened up considerably, allowing numerous parts that may have never seen use to be utilized in top-tier customizations.

After almost nine months of being restricted, Libra was reintroduced into competitive play in February 2011 with release 3.5 of the WBO Standard and Universal Rules. As would be expected given the controversial decision to ban Libra, it was intensely contested almost immediately after the ban was put into place. The ban was originally imposed with no intention of it being permanent; its sole purpose was to help balance and open up the MFB metagame until a point in the future when the reintroduction of the part in question, Libra, would no longer be the dominating force it once was when Bladers were opposed with it.

Throughout the nine months that passed, the contention continued, and the Beyblade metagame evolved immensely; countless new and useful parts were introduced, an explosion of experimentation and testing occurred in unison with the growing userbase of the WBO, and Attack types finally became a dominant force in the game–especially before the release of RS and RSF–in the absence of Libra. The fear regarding the use of rubber-based Bottoms such as RF on Attack types diminished with the plethora of new effective parts that were released, and the customs that were discovered. There was no longer but one viable Track for Stamina, no longer but one viable Bottom for Defense; the game was no longer a simple game of rock-paper-scissors. To this end, the ban on Libra served its purpose. It shifted the focus of the game away from one particular part.

So I'm going to go through these and see if the key elements are evident now.

After Libra was released and weighed, it did not take very long for it to shoot to the top of the MFB metagame in both Stamina and Defense customizations, and eventually a remarkably useful Balance customization, as listed above.

oh hey, I recognize that.

Aside from it's circular, uninterrupted shape, it's insane weight in comparison with other Wheels is the main reason for its game-breaking power.

Yep. Plus newer parts, specifically BD145, just add on to this.

If it isn't obvious already, the reason that Libra was banned was that it transformed Beyblade into a game of rock-paper-scissors.

More like rock-paper-scissors-dynamite!. There's lee way here, but people's already little confidence mostly flips the birdie to this.

Of course, inherently the game will always be this, but Libra allowed for no deviation. You either used Libra or you didn't win.

Oh hey, I recognize this too. Can anyone who has gotten far at least once say that they didn't use basalt? Tink about dat.

The game revolved around defeating Libra, and that isn't what a good metagame looks like.

Nope, it isn't. Tell me something that you would have a big focus on beating in a tournament?
Oh, basalt?

In the end though, through the banning of Libra, the Beyblade metagame was undeniably opened up considerably, allowing numerous parts that may have never seen use to be utilized in top-tier customizations.

bingo! Give the man a prize.

The ban was originally imposed with no intention of it being permanent; its sole purpose was to help balance and open up the MFB metagame until a point in the future when the reintroduction of the part in question, Libra, would no longer be the dominating force it once was when Bladers were opposed with it.

makes my stomach grumble. Sounds so good. Too good to be true.

The fear regarding the use of rubber-based Bottoms such as RF on Attack types diminished with the plethora of new effective parts that were released, and the customs that were discovered.

Yep. Oui. Ci. Mostly the last part, I believe.

There was no longer but one viable Track for Stamina, no longer but one viable Bottom for Defense; the game was no longer a simple game of rock-paper-scissors.

yeah, and dynamite is like cheating.

To this end, the ban on Libra served its purpose. It shifted the focus of the game away from one particular part.

isn't that alone enough?


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Might sound like useless words that are being spit out of my mouth, but I believe 160% that the game will be 400% as fun and diverse.

Just curious, is what I'm saying in here influencing anyone or making an impact?

Of course, inherently the game will always be this, but Libra allowed for no deviation. You either used Libra or you didn't win.

Oh hey, I recognize this too. Can anyone who has gotten far at least once say that they didn't use basalt? Tink about dat.

I got pretty far in Beycation 2 where I only used Vari Ares and Scythe.
I think it was Beycation 2.

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戦う, 正義の 仮面ライダーV3!

Instead of banning Basalt entirely, what would you all think of a ban on Basalt + BD145 for the time being?

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Instead of banning Basalt entirely, what would you all think of a ban on Basalt + BD145 for the time being?

Are we entirely certain that would allow much more variability? I mean, is Earth or Libra on a BD145 going to compare to any other Basalt defense combo?

If it's just going to be one less Basalt monstrosity without opening up room for other non-basalt Defense customs, I don't really see that much of a point. Even if BD145 is the primary means of Basalt's terror - it's still hugely effective on pretty much every other track.

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Some manner of Octopus.