♥ Wrote:You're absolutely right; Basalt is a stronger, more influential part than BD145. I don't know though; why ban it now, when we've never banned it before? Just playing devil's advocate, but viable counters to Basalt already exist, too. I don't really have an argument against that.

Kei Wrote:Counters do indeed exist, but what I'm trying to emphasize is that despite it's fallibility, it is still overpowered in general. Libra wasn't unbeatable either, but we still banned it.

edit: Just want to ask, which "counters" are you referring to? There are counters to specific customizations that use Basalt, but the main problem is that there is nothing that can beat Basalt in pure endurance and defensive ability (not to mention it's use in anti-meta Attack customs, as I stated in the OP).

♥ Wrote:Yeah, I was definitely talking about counters to specific Basalt customisations, but your point about it dominating Defense and Stamina is definitely valid and one which I agree with.

Like Blitz, I would absolutely love to see tournaments without Basalt, since I believe that we'd see a lot more variation. I'm leaning towards it being banned, even though I am really reluctant to see us take this sort of action. Like I mentioned before, unlike the Libra situation where contemporary Attack Wheels were not all that strong, we are now in a phase where I doubt, judging from Takara Tomy's designs (compared to say, something like Samurai Upper of HMS), we will ever get anything potent enough to damage Basalt in any significant way. As a result, I'm certainly not optimistic of this ban ever getting overturned if we announce it. I guess that's a separate issue altogether, but it's something to think about, I guess.

Kei Wrote:Exactly. We would. I think it's important for us to consider what might happen if we do ban it, so I've outlined a few general predictions here:

• An increase in the use of Attack types.
  
• As a result of the increased used of Attack types, there would also be an increase in the use of parts like RS, a part which is basically non-existant in competitive play right now, at least in Toronto.
  
• A whole crop of Wheels would become competitively viable again: Earth, Burn, Flame, Virgo, Libra, and Scythe (or for the first time in the case of Scythe imo. It's done well in tests, but I've felt like it was more of the Track or Bottom's doing in those cases than due to Scythe's great Stamina).
  
• Crazy powerful Balance customizations like MF-H Basalt Aquario TH170CS/WD/MF/etc. would not be as terrifying without the use of Basalt. Using the same custom with Earth or Libra would still be good, but it would also be easier to KO.
  
• bye bye mf-h basalt aquario bd145cs/mb
  

There will be more changes, but these would be the most basic ones I think we would see. They all sound good, don't they?

If it never gets unbanned, who's fault is it, really? It's TAKARA-TOMY's for releasing such an overpowered Metal Wheel in the first place.

(By the way, Lightning L Drago came out in July 2009 and Libra was banned in May 2010 ... so it's not fair to say that "contemporary Attack Wheels were not all that strong"! Pegasis, though its impressive Smash Attack was not well known at the time, was also around. As I said before, I think it was more of a psychological problem than anything else, looking back).

Kei Wrote:

Kai-V Wrote:Hm, I had the impression BD145 was SPAMmed in many different combinations more, where it almost did not matter what Metal Wheel you would use sometimes.


It seems that it is indeed used a lot, but how does that compare to Libra's use ?

You could argue that it is spammed more than Basalt, and what you mention regarding that it almost does not matter what Metal Wheel you use sometimes is certainly true to some degree. However, the point I'm trying to make here about Basalt is not even about how much it is spammed, it's simply about how ridiculous and damaging to the games future I'm realizing it is to allow a Metal Wheel with such high performance in almost all three major types be legal in competitive play.


I went through all of the quotes you pulled from the Winning Combinations thread and here are the stats (I went through them quickly, so their may be some inaccuracies):

- 18 Tournaments listed
- 40 placements listed (sometimes it was just one person who posted what they used, instead of the top three)
- 55 customs listed: 23 included Basalt (42%) (55 customs were listed because some Bladers listed the customs they used frequently throughout the tournament, rather than just the one combo they used in the final match ... I'd imagine if everyone did this, we would see even more Basalt combos appearing)

But again, talking about how successful or not it is in particular tournaments is not what this is about. Circumstances vary in tournaments around the world, and it's very possible for someone to still place with something like Earth Bull 145WD, but that doesn't mean Earth Bull 145WD is still a competitive combination when it is brought to the highest level with the likes of Basalt.

I don't think it's fair to compare actual stats of how much Basalt is used in comparison with Libra (if those stats did exist) because there were much less parts available back when Libra was dominating. That said, because Basalt is a much better Wheel than Libra was, it's easy to see how much of a problem it is ... and I've outlined all of the reasons why that is in the OP.

(Aug. 08, 2011  11:14 PM)Kei Wrote:

(Aug. 08, 2011  3:49 PM)Kai-V Wrote: So Jade in total weighs 39.15 grams.

That's disappointing. It's interesting how TAKARA-TOMY has thus far not been scared to match or exceed the "maximum" properties of the other Maximum Series Beyblades (Hell is no longer the widest Wheel, EDS is arguably just as good as EWD depending on the situation, TH170 is an infinitely more useful part than 230), yet they haven't really gone near Basalt's weight yet.

It's like the Libra problem all over again, except this time they're trying to correct it by releasing all of these ridiculously designed high recoil Wheels like Vari Ares and Blitz.

(Aug. 10, 2011  6:28 PM)Deikailo Wrote: With the release of Variares and B:D, this will bring attack types back into the metagame. The only way to beat B:D would be to KO it and since drive tracks/bottoms are not particularly hard to KO, there ya go.

1. Without Basalt will not be any other MW that you can use for defense competitively. Forget Earth and others,new attackers will burn them.
   
   
2. With Basalt a lot of people want to use it to go "sure" in tournament and it's quite bad,because beyblade is a play where you have to use skills,strong,strategy,and fantasy. Basalt kills all of them,but if exist Attack players that can beat Basalt, for sure a lot of people will start to understand that it isn't a Metal Wheel that can do all the work that a player must do and win for sure!
   
   
3. Without Basalt you'll create a whirlpool of Attack vs Attack,because Stamina will be useless,and Defence will not have good parts to make a Top tier combo!
   
   
4. Without Basalt the problem will not be resolved,all old MWs can't be played against the newest!
   Or you create 2 formats: one made for all Beys first of the Maximum Series\4D system and one for all the maximum Series and 4D system, or you'll create another problem made by all MWs that do the work (in attack customizations) that Basalt does in defence!
   

(Aug. 11, 2011  5:44 AM)Cye Kinomiya Wrote: The only problem with Basalt is that stamina types can't beat it. If B : D can then I see no problem. Even if people threw Basalt on B : D, attack types would still be able to KO that, no? All this is guesswork though.

As of right now, regardless of whether or not Basalt should be banned, I think if it were the game would be more fun.

Edit: I think the best thing that could happen to this game would be for either a stadium with a better tornado ridge or a rubber flat that catches the one in MFB attack properly.

(Aug. 11, 2011  3:10 PM)Galaxy Wrote:

1. Without Basalt will not be any other MW that you can use for defense competitively. Forget Earth and others,new attackers will burn them.
   

(Aug. 11, 2011  5:04 PM)Shabalabadoo Wrote: Galaxy, although I agree with your opinion, this part I somewhat disagree:

(Aug. 11, 2011  3:10 PM)Galaxy Wrote:

1. Without Basalt will not be any other MW that you can use for defense competitively. Forget Earth and others,new attackers will burn them.
   

On CS, then yeah I agree. But on RS/RSF I think defense still has a chance. BB-96 libra on BD145 RS/RSF does exceptionally well. Keep in mind though that the attack types I have right now are limited to Gravity, Hell and Vulcan, but I think you should play around and test BB-96 Libra in place of Basalt for BD145 RS/RSF.

Although, Libra on 230 is easy to beat though.
All 230 combos in general without basalt aren't hard to beat.