If Scythe can consistently beat Basalt variants, and so can VariAres + a couple other releases, I think we're good.

Scythe cannot consistently beat Basalt variants. Vari Ares cannot either.

The problem I'm trying to convey right now is that if Basalt is banned, the gap between Scythe and other Stamina Wheels would be too great. There has almost always been at least two competitively viable options for Stamina during the lifespan of MFB. If we take Basalt out of the equation now, Scythe would be the undisputed best Stamina Wheel.

That said, I'm more than willing to look past that when I consider how much the rest of the game will be opened up. There will no longer be any "easy" options (which is what Basalt is).

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From my testing with VariAres, I would love to walk into a room with only MF-H Basalt Kerbecs BD145/230CS. (then again I'm not bent on using BD145 like a zealot so that opens up more doors.)
Apparently a lot of people do believe Scythe can trump Basalt, I went off their opinions.

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shout out 2 kai-v 2.

The Complete Competitive HMS Resource

Hmmm, I Uwik wrote that he saw Scythe 230 at his last tournament, so that definitely was a shock to me. Do you guys know if Scythe BD145 is about equal to Scythe 230?

The problem I'm trying to convey right now is that if Basalt is banned, the gap between Scythe and other Stamina Wheels would be too great. There has almost always been at least two competitively viable options for Stamina during the lifespan of MFB. If we take Basalt out of the equation now, Scythe would be the undisputed best Stamina Wheel.

Well IMO Scythe being the best is a hell of a lot better than Basalt being the best in two categories, which was one of your original points.

That said, I'm more than willing to look past that when I consider how much the rest of the game will be opened up. There will no longer be any "easy" options (which is what Basalt is).

Hmm, you know what this makes me think... Something that I honestly don't think has been a priority in this discussion is just fun. Question, is the game honestly fun or no fun right now? Would it be more fun or less fun if basalt were banned?

Well to be honest even if Basalt is banned attackers will remain as used as they are currently no matter what advantage is given and it isn't like Stamina is suffering in the tournament department. (be it through Basalt or otherwise it is still extremely common.)

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shout out 2 kai-v 2.

The Complete Competitive HMS Resource

Hmmm, I Uwik wrote that he saw Scythe 230 at his last tournament, so that definitely was a shock to me. Do you guys know if Scythe BD145 is about equal to Scythe 230?

Sycthe 230 takes care of Basalt 230 most of the time
Sycthe BD145 takes care of Basalt 230 most of the time
Sycthe BD145 takes care of Basalt BD145 most of the time

Sycthe 230 is about even against Basalt BD145

I haven't seen nor tried Sycthe BD145 vs Sycthe 230

EDIT: I forgot to mention that these are all with CS. I understand that CS is highly inconsistent from one to another, so some people are bound to receive different results. My statement, however, was based on tournament situations, where they were used, and witnessed by many.

That said, I'm more than willing to look past that when I consider how much the rest of the game will be opened up. There will no longer be any "easy" options (which is what Basalt is).

Hmm, you know what this makes me think... Something that I honestly don't think has been a priority in this discussion is just fun. Question, is the game honestly fun or no fun right now? Would it be more fun or less fun if basalt were banned?

Honestly, I'm of the opinion that yes, for many people(especially Hasbro-only Bladers not fortunate enough to have Twisted available in their area), banning Basalt would technically make the metagame more enjoyable for several users - it's really not likely attack-types would run rampant after the change(since their rise in popularity is almost entirely DUE to Basalt, for the most part), so it's not like a new beast would be set free upon the meta to wreak havoc.

It would also give more wiggle-room in the Defense meta, as some people prefer using Earth, some want to use Libra, etc. and this would allow them to do so without suffering greatly for their choices - most attack combos capable of "breaking Basalt" are just as capable of dealing with the other top-tier Defense wheels. When facing an attack-type opponent used properly, Basalt is no longer as large of a looming shadow.

The amount of testing that has been done showing the potency of VariAres and Blitz against many popular Basalt combos is rather considerable - and it's unlikely that the results, especially on such a scale, are skewed heavily enough for them to be discredited.

As for Stamina, it's a bit of a slippery slope - banning one monster would crown the other certified king of the playground, but I'm really not sure the theoretical difference is that large, when comparing "Stamina when Scythe wasn't tested" to "Stamina after Basalt was banned" - it's still a situation wherein only one is the genuinely viable answer.

On the topic of fun, though... it's obvious many Bladers would enjoy the metagame less if they lost usage of their Basalt - some depend on it to win, others just plum like the way it "feels" when using it. I'm not certain that validates the sinking feeling - the utter despair, if you would - of seeing the guy across from you with a Basalt in his hand and you with a puny Earth, or, heaven forbid - one of the attack wheels from pre-basalt stomping.

So, I'm honestly 50/50 on the issue - when I first joined, I was 100% in favor of banning the beast. It seemed like the whole metagame was run by Big Boss Basalt, and that it was the only thing anyone could use to win. After a month of seeing that this isn't ENTIRELY the case but still has a valid presence, I cannot really make up my mind, so... I just threw my opinions/stance/observations out there for your consideration.

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Some manner of Octopus.

I am opposed to a ban on Basalt.

In general I think a ban would benefit bladers with higher skill levels, and I certainly think it would make it easier for me to win matches. But frankly, part of the reason it would be easier for me to beat other bladers is because I can afford to buy parts that they cannot, and so can create highly customized combos that are better equipped to meet a wider variety of garden-variety non-basalt combos. This is true right now, but at least my opponents having Basalt gives them a fighting chance - something I doubt most of them would have after a ban.

In that same vein, please keep in mind that the Hasbro release of Basalt now serves to some extent as "the great equalizer" and allows more bladers to finally be in a position where they could reach a top-3 tournament spot. In MDs stamina-dominated "local metagame" we have a pretty good record of posting different finalists in our tournaments - they are all using Basalt, but they all have a chance! Skill still matters (there are always at least 1 of the 3 top local bladers in the finals) and so from that point it feels to me like the competitive system is still succeeding in allowing the best bladers to use their skill to their advantage.

Also, please consider that for a lot of kids who bought a TT version, their purchase of a Basalt wheel was a non-trivial expense from their very limited budgets/allowances. A ban would render that purchase competitively worthless - depriving them of the value they paid for - and a lot of kids just don't have the money to waste.

As more MD bladers use Basalt, the skilled bladers are more or less forced to further develop their attack games as a counter. This has been my main area of recent focus, and I think it will have a positive effect on the game. In fact, once bearing drive comes into mainstream use, if you don't have an attack combo that can beat MF-H Basalt or Scythe B:D I think you're going to be in a whole heap of trouble!

On the other hand, some of us have also been preparing for the potential ban of Basalt. There's been a lot of talk about whether the ban would lead to an increase in variety of wheels used, but for what it's worth, I recently ordered 2 extra Scythe wheels - and I'm sure I'm not the only one...

Part of the matter is this : is it normal that someone can get to the finals without really having much skills ? Yes, Beyblade selection plays a big role in Beyblade, but it seems undeserving that people could just take a Basalt combination and win.

What if those people didn't have a basalt to use? (as in, basalt were banned)
(banned questions) :

Would talented people win over and over?

Would people who would've used Basalt suck?


(not banned questions and thoughts) :
It does seem undeserving, and it also seems unfair to people who get a one time chance to go to a tournament and try to take skilled risks and end up losing to basalt.

Scythe is seeming to be an easy counter to use (somewhat) and is easier to beat when someone is taking risks (attack types) than basalt is, so is it like that at this current moment in time? Is basalt a guaranteed victory anymore compared to when this topic was started?

Is it fair to people like the ones Arupaeo mentioned that don't have the money for Basalt, or just can't get Basalt?

It kinda makes me think, does Basalt almost seem like cheating to some people? I kinda see sorta yes' and sorta no's.



These are all just questions out of curiosity that I think are important.

My primary concern with Basalt isn't that it's "an easy way to win"; I don't necessarily have any problem with that. Throughout Beyblade history, there have been many "easy" ways to win - Zombies, Bearing Core, GFCUM in TBTS. If a part exists and can be used in a legal way, to me it's not cheating, figuratively or literally. What's more worrying about Basalt is that it is the absolute be-all and end-all of Defense. If you want a Defense Beyblade, there is no other alternative. This is not only a pretty unhealthy state for a metagame to be in, but it also defeats one of the biggest purposes of Beyblade: customisation variety.

Although it's a valid point, in the context of this metagame-based discussion I don't think we can take financial risks into consideration. The same was said of Libra, which at the time, was an arguably more valuable and expensive Wheel - unfortunately, we simply can't take into account the financial choices people make.

Part of the matter is this : is it normal that someone can get to the finals without really having much skills ? Yes, Beyblade selection plays a big role in Beyblade, but it seems undeserving that people could just take a Basalt combination and win.

What if those people didn't have a basalt to use? (as in, basalt were banned)
(banned questions) :

Would talented people win over and over?

Would people who would've used Basalt suck?

These are fair questions, but in my opinion I do not believe that the bladers in MD who have been making the finals with their Basalt combos would otherwise "suck". And it isn't that using Basalt in the MD metagame automatically catapults you to the finals, but rather that it is extremely difficult to make it to the finals using the previous generation of stamina/balance blades. The blader who came in 4th at the Beyblade Melee actually had a great Scythe combo and would have placed higher except that he drew me in the semis and lost a close match.

My primary concern with Basalt isn't that it's "an easy way to win"; I don't necessarily have any problem with that. Throughout Beyblade history, there have been many "easy" ways to win - Zombies, Bearing Core, GFCUM in TBTS. If a part exists and can be used in a legal way, to me it's not cheating, figuratively or literally. What's more worrying about Basalt is that it is the absolute be-all and end-all of Defense. If you want a Defense Beyblade, there is no other alternative. This is not only a pretty unhealthy state for a metagame to be in, but it also defeats one of the biggest purposes of Beyblade: customisation variety.

Although it's a valid point, in the context of this metagame-based discussion I don't think we can take financial risks into consideration. The same was said of Libra, which at the time, was an arguably more valuable and expensive Wheel - unfortunately, we simply can't take into account the financial choices people make.

My biggest concern/issue of dismay with Basalt is the same as Heart's, basically. I really like the way Earth functions for defense - the low recoil is nice, and it moves around a bit more nicely. Plus, forgive the slight "shallow appeal", but I think it looks nicer when spinning, too! But, in general... it seems like the personal touch is just absent from the defense meta right now. It's limiting gameplay, choices, and ultimately, enjoyability. With certain combos just being outright condemning toward any deviation whatsoever for success, it's... just upsetting.

When I first learned I had to use a Basalt combo to win in defense, it bothered me - not because I dislike Basalt, but because it's like I had the choice taken away from me. I'm 100% certain I'm not the only one that felt this way, and I can assure you newer bladers WILL feel this same pressure. It's an unpleasant aura looming around the metagame - a metaphorical gun pointed at your head. Now, this is normal for any meta - obviously some things will just be out and out better, and that's fine! But for it to be THIS NARROW of a range? Absolutely atrocious.

As for financial risk... really, there's little to be thought about with it. As Heart stated, it's just not something we should actually consider when thinking over this issue. At that point we have to start taking into consideration every circumstance of everyone who buys a Basalt, too - so, it's just a slippery slope that needs to be put away.

Beybladers in different areas - both in the US, and globally - are seeing highly varying Basalt usage. However, the places that it's present... it's usually there in great numbers. If it's a Skilled Blader using a Basalt versus an unskilled blader using Basalt, it's clear who will win. If it's a skilled blader using earth, libra, etc. and an unskilled blader using basalt, then there's actually a good chance tool will surpass skill.

That is a problem.

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Some manner of Octopus.

My primary concern with Basalt isn't that it's "an easy way to win"; ... What's more worrying about Basalt is that it is the absolute be-all and end-all of Defense. If you want a Defense Beyblade, there is no other alternative. This is not only a pretty unhealthy state for a metagame to be in, but it also defeats one of the biggest purposes of Beyblade: customisation variety.

I can't argue with that very much. In fact, I own 4 basalt wheels for exactly that reason and so that I don't have to disassemble wheels, but have all of my different Basalt Balance combos on hand at tournament time. But that in and of itself demonstrates that there is customization variety (save the metal wheel).

However, I also have a whole array of scythe (and other) combos that I have created to counter each of those aforementioned Basalt combos (some to 100% effectiveness). So if a blader so chose, he or she could win without basalt - I however generally choose not to.

My primary concern with Basalt isn't that it's "an easy way to win"; ... What's more worrying about Basalt is that it is the absolute be-all and end-all of Defense. If you want a Defense Beyblade, there is no other alternative. This is not only a pretty unhealthy state for a metagame to be in, but it also defeats one of the biggest purposes of Beyblade: customisation variety.

I can't argue with that very much. In fact, I own 4 basalt wheels for exactly that reason and so that I don't have to disassemble wheels, but have all of my different Basalt Balance combos on hand at tournament time. But that in and of itself demonstrates that there is customization variety (save the metal wheel).

However, I also have a whole array of scythe (and other) combos that I have created to counter each of those aforementioned Basalt combos (some to 100% effectiveness). So if a blader so chose, he or she could win without basalt - I however generally choose not to.

The problem with the former statement is that, while there IS technically customization, it's all in a narrow hallway. There's room for one MW, and that's it. One single part is omnipresent, and that's just not kosher, in my opinion.

As for the latter statement, and as I said earlier, yes, there are tons of Basalt counters around - but their frequency of use is the problem. They'll never, ever, EVER be used enough to "scare off" Basalt, and while for some bladers they may be reliable counters, this may not always be the case. Moreover, several Basalt counters are geared toward a very specific combo, which is in and of itself a problem.

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Some manner of Octopus.

I can't argue with that very much. In fact, I own 4 basalt wheels for exactly that reason and so that I don't have to disassemble wheels, but have all of my different Basalt Balance combos on hand at tournament time. But that in and of itself demonstrates that there is customization variety (save the metal wheel).

However, I also have a whole array of scythe (and other) combos that I have created to counter each of those aforementioned Basalt combos (some to 100% effectiveness). So if a blader so chose, he or she could win without basalt - I however generally choose not to.

The problem with the former statement is that, while there IS technically customization, it's all in a narrow hallway. There's room for one MW, and that's it. One single part is omnipresent, and that's just not kosher, in my opinion.

As for the latter statement, and as I said earlier, yes, there are tons of Basalt counters around - but their frequency of use is the problem. They'll never, ever, EVER be used enough to "scare off" Basalt, and while for some bladers they may be reliable counters, this may not always be the case. Moreover, several Basalt counters are geared toward a very specific combo, which is in and of itself a problem.

Well... Sounds like we solved your 50/50 dilemma through the dialectic.... LOL

Flavors of Basalt really aren't customization in any sense that matters, but counters and additional winning combinations are. We are experiencing a peak in MW dominance, but I would contend that it is a local peak, and not the absolute end state of the metagame. More wheels are being released on a regular basis, and the attack combos out today are plentiful and consistent counters that give adequate alternative paths to victory. These attack combos aren't one-trick-ponies either - in fact they beat the carp out of most other combos if the blader has the skill to use them. And isn't that exactly the state in which we wish the metagame to reside?

I can't argue with that very much. In fact, I own 4 basalt wheels for exactly that reason and so that I don't have to disassemble wheels, but have all of my different Basalt Balance combos on hand at tournament time. But that in and of itself demonstrates that there is customization variety (save the metal wheel).

However, I also have a whole array of scythe (and other) combos that I have created to counter each of those aforementioned Basalt combos (some to 100% effectiveness). So if a blader so chose, he or she could win without basalt - I however generally choose not to.

The problem with the former statement is that, while there IS technically customization, it's all in a narrow hallway. There's room for one MW, and that's it. One single part is omnipresent, and that's just not kosher, in my opinion.

As for the latter statement, and as I said earlier, yes, there are tons of Basalt counters around - but their frequency of use is the problem. They'll never, ever, EVER be used enough to "scare off" Basalt, and while for some bladers they may be reliable counters, this may not always be the case. Moreover, several Basalt counters are geared toward a very specific combo, which is in and of itself a problem.

Well... Sounds like we solved your 50/50 dilemma through the dialectic.... LOL

Flavors of Basalt really aren't customization in any sense that matters, but counters and additional winning combinations are. We are experiencing a peak in MW dominance, but I would contend that it is a local peak, and not the absolute end state of the metagame. More wheels are being released on a regular basis, and the attack combos out today are plentiful and consistent counters that give adequate alternative paths to victory. These attack combos aren't one-trick-ponies either - in fact they beat the carp out of most other combos if the blader has the skill to use them. And isn't that exactly the state in which we wish the metagame to reside?

Actually, I'm still 50/50 on it, because I also support most of what you've stated here - my opinions haven't changed, just the words I've used to express them. On the one hand, I hate what Basalt has done to customization and variety in Defense. On the other hand, Basalt is not an unkillable beast.

I agree that several of the counters to Basalt CAN do considerably more - but most of those counters take a level of skill that is just not prominent. And, yes, I understand that this philosophy leads to a potential "punishing the gifted for the flaws of the meak" scenario, but... the health of the metagame is more dependant on those without than those with, simply by sheer number. No, this isn't a pleasant fact, and it isn't how it "should" be, but... really, what in life is?

It's no longer a question of "What attack combo can dethrone this king of kings?", but rather, "What defense combo can even stand in his court?"

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Some manner of Octopus.

Although it's a valid point, in the context of this metagame-based discussion I don't think we can take financial risks into consideration. The same was said of Libra, which at the time, was an arguably more valuable and expensive Wheel - unfortunately, we simply can't take into account the financial choices people make.

Well I think that is the metagame.

The amount of people that buy [x] is what the metagame is. If it's like that for Arupaeo, I think it's a valid point, because that's what going on, and it affects what's being used, so that's what the game is like where he is.

I could be completely off though.

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I was going to respond to Arupaeo's post, but I pressed preview post and Hazel's showed up. I was going to say pretty much what Hazel said.


But it's a very sticky situation; it's really difficult to predict what would happen if a dominant part was removed from the game, because skill and confidence is a huge factor.

If I were to go to a tournament right now, which would be my first tournament, I would personally not feel confident with VariAres. That's a personal thing, but I'm just saying this because even though I believe I am skilled with attack types, I don't think they're a solid win when compared to Basalt.

Basalt scares me.

Earth, Libra, and Scythe do not.

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@ heart-

About the first part, I think it'd be good for people to compare Scythe with Earth and Libra for defense, and compare Scythe with Earth and Hell BD145 for stamina. Direct comparison.

I think it's the closest we can get to predicting what things could be like without basalt, short of doing several non-basalt unofficial tournaments to the point where it's just pointless for people to take part in them, which would be detrimental to actual competitive play.

That sentence probably makes no sense and doesn't show what I wanted to say, haha.


Sorry for the out of order and non quoted responses, it's tough to quote multiple posts on an iPad.

I've been PM'ed with an idea a couple of times and I think it'd be very worthwhile.

What do you guys think about making a topic like this for basalt? (Except the other way around)

I think that'd be the best thing, because it's so much easier than an unofficial tournament, and while it may not be near as concrete, I think it's the next best thing to make predictions with.

I don't have proper parts to make any worthwhile tests (mine would be useless!), but I could make a checklist of every test that would need to be done. Tests done previously that match could be put in.

Who knows, it could also give people guidance.

And our goal was to ban it (or at least come to a decision) before and regardless of B:D's release, but apparently if we need to redo all those tests then that will never happen, and we will end up having tournaments probably dominated by a combination of Basalt and B:D ...

And our goal was to ban it (or at least come to a decision) before and regardless of B:D's release, but apparently if we need to redo all those tests then that will never happen, and we will end up having tournaments probably dominated by a combination of Basalt and B:D ...

It is because of the point made in this post that I realized something I had been overlooking before, which was B:D.

I do not really think re-testing is entirely necessary - we've got so much testing done so often against the primary Basalt threats, it's really just beating an already mortally wounded horse, and with B:D already out, new tests will be flooding in soon anyway.

If given the time, though, re-testing other combinations isn't something we should be opposed to, at any rate. If the time is going to be taken for a decision to be made anyway, we may as well try to get the most definitive results possible in that time frame.

At this juncture I think the best thing to do is to wait a little while, see how B:D impacts the metagame, or at least tests out, and then re-ignite the discussion, as the current discussion seems to be at a bit of an impasse, as it does appear a decision took too long to be reached.

EDIT:

I somewhat mis-spoke about Shabalabadoo's suggestion, and to clarify, I feel that testing against potential rival combinations is mostly unnecessary, but not something we should discard altogether, as B:D will need to be tested with things other than Basalt anyway, and there's no reason not to use the time granted by that testing to also compare Basalt's success rates to the rates of other combos when facing current Basalt "counters".

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Some manner of Octopus.

Hmm, so then where the heck do we go from here? Judging by the last part of Kai-V's sentence, I don't think waiting would be a good thing, Hazel. Honestly, I still think that a ban is the best possible thing. It's clear it's dominant, it's clear that the next step down holds weaker parts (libra, earth), and it's clear that it could potentially get worse.

At the beginning of this topic, we spoke of how B:D would be extremely helpful, but now that I think about that in specific, I think it'll cause more harm than good. We've always known that people don't use attack types frequently for whatever reason, B:D is a step up from the already overwhelming stamina that was/is destroying the game. How the hell can you outspin B:D successfully? Especially since there's no tests yet, and when it first hits a tournament, do you really think people will be able to beat it(I haven't checked today yet, though)? People without B:D are screwed if Basalt is left unbanned.

Oh, and I didn't necessarily mean re-testing. Almost like a pile up of basalt tests that have already be done, which can be added to, that just helps keep an organized way of looking at comparison tests. What I was thinking definitely wouldn't take as long as the libra testing.

We're all just making assumptions about B:D, for all we know Basalt could do horribly on it. We also don't know if Scythe can do better on B:D than Basalt. I think there is too much uncertainty to even talk about B:D yet.

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shout out 2 kai-v 2.

The Complete Competitive HMS Resource

We're all just making assumptions about B:D, for all we know Basalt could do horribly on it. We also don't know if Scythe can do better on B:D than Basalt. I think there is too much uncertainty to even talk about B:D yet.

This is precisely why I suggested we just wait until B:D has been tested very thoroughly to make any final decisions about the Basalt ban, because as of right now, there are too many variables, in my opinion - Basalt is currently in transition - to being more powerful or easier to thwart, we're not entirely sure yet. Making a decision without all of the information just wouldn't be prudent.

If we do need to make an immediate decision for the health and "certainty" of the meta, however, banning it does make more sense, for the time being. People can continue testing it privately until we have fully conclusive results, while tournaments can be assured not to have any new monsters running rampant, let alone old ones.

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Some manner of Octopus.

If we do need to make an immediate decision for the health and "certainty" of the meta, however, banning it does make more sense, for the time being. People can continue testing it privately until we have fully conclusive results, while tournaments can be assured not to have any new monsters running rampant, let alone old ones.

This is what most my opinions in here have been based on. I spoke of B:D just now because it was brought up, and seemed to fit with what I wrote.

I was talking about B:D in the sense that, waiting really isn't the right thing to do. It may be hasty or naive, but I put that there because what's dominant right now has a good chance of becoming more dominant, we don't know. I don't know why, but putting this thought into words is difficult, so this might not have showed what I was thinking.

I really think that in general, the game will have more balance, potentially new combos, and just a more new-player friendly atmosphere. I don't know if my points in this topic are going anywhere, but the idea is the same.

It's clear it's dominant, it's clear that the next step down holds weaker parts (libra, earth), and it's clear that it could potentially get worse.

I really don't like the waiting thing. Why would we wait for it to be solved when it's a problem right now?

I really want to get the bus rolling, because I'm even more for basalt being banned than I was before.

I'd like to see how Basalt stamina customs do against Basalt defense customs.. :V
I still think if certain Scythe and VariAres combinations can defeat Basalt (Defense and Stamina customs) than we're okay.. Which is apparently the case. Has anyone even used VariAres in a tournament yet? (other than Deikailo) It should be dominating.

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shout out 2 kai-v 2.

The Complete Competitive HMS Resource