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Scythe Kronos T125RS

Jan. 13, 2012  6:21 AM
 
As the title says, the combo is Scythe Kronos T125RS.
Scythe has to be in attack mode, as the PC frame acts as a counter attack and defense part. It absorbs hits like 230, and counter attacks when spin velocity is low.

<Test>

Standard Procedure
(All TT parts, RS slightly aggressive, sliding shoot for attack types)

Scythe Kronos T125RS VS MF-H VariAres CH120RF
(Scythe in attack mode, as said above)

VS 120 height, right spin:
Scythe wins 12/20 (60%, 2KO)
VariAres wins 8/20 (40%, all KO)

VS 145 height, right spin:
Scythe wins 14/20 (70%, 0 KO)
VariAres wins 6/20 (30%, all KO)

VS 120 height, left spin:
Scythe wins 14/20 (70%, 1KO)
VariAres wins 6/20 (30%, all KO)
With 1 draw

VS 145 height, left spin:
Scythe wins 16/20 (80%, 4KO)
VariAres wins 4/20 (20%, all KO)
Jan. 13, 2012  6:59 AM
 
I don't think the Defensive prowess you're experiencing with this combination is actually due to the combination itself, but probably an indecent launch.

Do this benchmark test:

MF-H VariAres CH120RF vs. MF-H Basalt Aquario GB145RS

I haven't set the standard too high here, it should give us a real feel of your skill in launching Rubber Flat which I feel is the reason your tests are so unorthodox.
Take a look at the Beywiki Youtube Channel which showcases the Sliding Shoot Technique in gruesome detail.
Jan. 13, 2012  8:27 AM
 
Actually, Scythe RS is a known anti meta. It performs well against pure smash attackers. Generally, for this combo to be maximized, you need a low track (90/85). But just a little remainder, it fails miserably against MF-H LDrago Destroy BD145 RF.
Jan. 13, 2012  8:51 AM
 
I know of low track Scythe, not this though.

Wouldn't that just be grip-based defense, though? Not anti-meta?
Jan. 13, 2012  9:52 AM
 
Its still a rubber based tip. It moves around quite a bit when launched with reasonable strength.
Jan. 13, 2012  11:18 AM
 
Yeah but anti-meta uses fast moving attack bottoms which RS clearly isn't. Definitely not anti meta IMO.
Jan. 13, 2012  11:35 AM
 
Why, again, are we stuck at the definition of a term used?

It's simply a stamina Metal Wheel, used defensively, and its sole purpose is to counter the current smash attack meta, namely MF-H VariAres CH120/R145 RF. All the while, it loses to many other meta combos. Now if that is not the perfect description of an Anti Meta, you tell me.
Jan. 13, 2012  1:50 PM
 
(Jan. 13, 2012  6:59 AM)Dan Wrote: I don't think the Defensive prowess you're experiencing with this combination is actually due to the combination itself, but probably an indecent launch.

Do this benchmark test:

MF-H VariAres CH120RF vs. MF-H Basalt Aquario GB145RS

I haven't set the standard too high here, it should give us a real feel of your skill in launching Rubber Flat which I feel is the reason your tests are so unorthodox.
Take a look at the Beywiki Youtube Channel which showcases the Sliding Shoot Technique in gruesome detail.

I haven't got a GB145, so I'll go with R145; I don't want to wear my old RS too much and the new one's lost, so I'll go with RSF.

Standard procedure

MF-H VariAres CH120 RF VS MF-H Basalt Kerbecs R145RSF
@120 height, right spin:
VariAres wins 9/20 (45%)
Basalt wins 11/20 (55%)
3 draws


(Jan. 13, 2012  11:35 AM)Uwik Wrote: Why, again, are we stuck at the definition of a term used?

It's simply a stamina Metal Wheel, used defensively, and its sole purpose is to counter the current smash attack meta, namely MF-H VariAres CH120/R145 RF. All the while, it loses to many other meta combos. Now if that is not the perfect description of an Anti Meta, you tell me.

Standard procedure

Scythe Kronos T125RS VS MF-H Basalt Kerbecs R145RSF
(RS slightly aggressive)
Scythe wins 15/20 (75%)
Basalt wins 5/20 (25%)

Anti-Meta?

Jan. 13, 2012  2:21 PM
 
(Jan. 13, 2012  11:35 AM)Uwik Wrote: Why, again, are we stuck at the definition of a term used?

It's simply a stamina Metal Wheel, used defensively, and its sole purpose is to counter the current smash attack meta, namely MF-H VariAres CH120/R145 RF. All the while, it loses to many other meta combos. Now if that is not the perfect description of an Anti Meta, you tell me.

Um fine but in case you hadn't realised the majority of Anti Meta combos have used RF and R2F. Also the ones using RF and R2F clearly aren't being used defensively since they're attacking the attack combos. There's no proper definition IIRC so it's not exactly like it's hard to get confused...

cangjieuser

Those results make me even less confident in your ability to use an attack combo. That combo isn't that great and skilled attack users would probably be able get better results. However it's possible that the nature of RSF's movement and Vari Ares recoil allows it to knock the attack combo out. How many of those wins for Basalt were KOs? Also why did you do those tests for the second one. There was no chance that the Basalt combo would do better than the other combo. An Anti Meta combo's worth is proven by how well they do against Attack combo. That Basalt combo is a defence combo or if you really want to stretch it possibly an Anti Meta.
Jan. 13, 2012  2:37 PM
 
Anti Meta should not be generalized with the parts used anyway. Rather, the function it serves. However, when you start categorizing parts when talking about Anti Meta, you should perhaps start with the Metal Wheel, the bottom is secondary. Eg: Libra/Basalt for Attack, Scythe for Defense, etc. But this discussion is already off-topic. Feel free to PM me if you wish to continue the discussion.

cangjieuser: I apologize for derailing your thread. Please do continue with your tests.
Jan. 13, 2012  2:50 PM
 
Well, I find this weird, to be honest.
It shouldn't get such high win rates, and as others said, it might be your launch. Smile
RS is a failure against Left Spin Attackers...
I wonder what happened here...
Jan. 13, 2012  2:50 PM
 
(Jan. 13, 2012  2:21 PM)Ultrablader Wrote: cangjieuser

Those results make me even less confident in your ability to use an attack combo. That combo isn't that great and skilled attack users would probably be able get better results. However it's possible that the nature of RSF's movement and Vari Ares recoil allows it to knock the attack combo out. How many of those wins for Basalt were KOs? Also why did you do those tests for the second one. There was no chance that the Basalt combo would do better than the other combo. An Anti Meta combo's worth is proven by how well they do against Attack combo. That Basalt combo is a defence combo or if you really want to stretch it possibly an Anti Meta.

Well, I'm not good at the wordings, so I'm not clear of what is "Anti Meta".

So, are you saying that I shall do more tests to prove my "sliding shoot" is good enough to do tests for my own combo?
Jan. 13, 2012  2:59 PM
 
Yes, that's just what we mean to say.
The win rates of the Attack combos you use are significantly lower than they actually should be.
OK, against Right Spin Attack, I may be inclined to believe that RS managed to get those win rates.
But against Left Spin Attack?! And more importantly, against VariAres?! Chocked_2
Well, even though such combos are known to defeat VariAres to some extent, this seems strange.
How were the battles? I mean, what happened in them? Did VariAres miss attacks? Did Scythe get wall-saves?
Jan. 13, 2012  3:23 PM
 
Jan, I've used this combo competitively before as an Anti Meta, albeit with an 85 track. His results seems valid.

It has a high win rate against smash attackers regardless it's left/right spinner. VariAres/Blitz/Beat.

But, to be honest, it loses to everything else. It loses to stamina, most defense types with a decent stamina. It also loses to attack types that utilizes 'push' technique. BD145 variants etc.
Jan. 13, 2012  3:26 PM
 
Hm...
But well, I never expected this to do good against Left Spin...
Any reasons why it does so well? Confused
And oh wow, this means LLD BD145LRF is still useful against something. Tongue_out
Jan. 13, 2012  3:27 PM
 
Lightning is a little light to 'push' Scythe RS, but yes you have the idea. LDrago Destory would be better in this case.
Jan. 13, 2012  3:33 PM
 
Well yeah, I was joking. Tongue_out
Hey wait, just realized-
Is this combo performing well due to the slightly aggressive RS(in place of a rather calm RS) being used with it?
Jan. 13, 2012  3:40 PM
 
Yes all of his rates are good. I've gotten better before using mf-h scythe cancer 85 rs and I've had Uwik test it out for me. I never made a thread because i was waiting to bring it out at tournament but i never got to use it XD
Jan. 13, 2012  3:41 PM
 
It's Scythe on a rubber bottom. RSF is a good substitute. That means the bottom's aggression doesn't really alter the result much.
Jan. 13, 2012  3:43 PM
 
Ah, so its solely based on Scythe...
Great!
Thanks for the info, Uwik!
But I wonder.... *talk to myself*
Why just Scythe?
This is probably off topic, so, don't answer please! Grin
Jan. 13, 2012  3:59 PM
 
Some time ago I had made the point that I consider RS to be the only true Defense tip and that it would be my only choice if I knew ahead of time that I would be facing an attacker using an RF variant.

The results above are pretty much in line with testing that I have done, and are exactly why I feel so strongly about RS - it works great for defense!
Jan. 13, 2012  4:24 PM
 
(Jan. 13, 2012  2:59 PM)Janstarblast Wrote: Yes, that's just what we mean to say.
The win rates of the Attack combos you use are significantly lower than they actually should be.
OK, against Right Spin Attack, I may be inclined to believe that RS managed to get those win rates.
But against Left Spin Attack?! And more importantly, against VariAres?! Chocked_2
Well, even though such combos are known to defeat VariAres to some extent, this seems strange.
How were the battles? I mean, what happened in them? Did VariAres miss attacks? Did Scythe get wall-saves?
In my first tests, VariAres did not miss attacks, but maybe the hits were just not hard enough due to launching. Scythe managed to survive without hitting the walls much. Even when against left-spin VariAres.

I admit that I still have a long way on launching skills, so after practice, I think I can manage that.

And, after "a while" of practice, my RF was worn. It's now swapped with R2F.



Standard procedure

MF-H VariAres CH120R2F VS MF-H Basalt Kerbecs R145RSF

@120 height, right spin:
VariAres wins 14/20 (70%, all KO)
Basalt wins 6/20 (30%, 4 KO)
3 draws
KOs by Basalt were actually draws, but Basalt hit the wall and survived.


@120 height, left spin:
VariAres wins 15/20 (75%, all KO)
Basalt wins 5/20 (25%, 4 KO)
6 draws



(Jan. 13, 2012  3:43 PM)Janstarblast Wrote: Ah, so its solely based on Scythe...
Great!
Thanks for the info, Uwik!
But I wonder.... *talk to myself*
Why just Scythe?
This is probably off topic, so, don't answer please! Grin

When I started this thread, I have considered other MWs. It turns out Scythe is better, for its round disk shape, which has less recoil than any before;
the PC frame "wings", which absorbs the hits and do counter at the end of a battle;
and the relatively heavy weight, not compared to the 4Ds, though.
Jan. 13, 2012  4:29 PM
 
Hm, your launch seems to be decent according to those tests. Smile
Well, I have no objections now, as most of them were cleared out by Uwik. Smile
Jan. 13, 2012  4:42 PM
 
(Jan. 13, 2012  3:23 PM)Uwik Wrote: Jan, I've used this combo competitively before as an Anti Meta, albeit with an 85 track. His results seems valid.

It has a high win rate against smash attackers regardless it's left/right spinner. VariAres/Blitz/Beat.

But, to be honest, it loses to everything else. It loses to stamina, most defense types with a decent stamina. It also loses to attack types that utilizes 'push' technique. BD145 variants etc.

Actually, I tried 85 on this combo, but it didn't work well as it scraped on the stadium floor easily, that is why I choose T125 instead of any lower tracks.
So, maybe you say it will lose to everything else, is all about the track you have chosen.
Jan. 13, 2012  4:47 PM
 
It is entirely posssible.

If you have the parts, would you mind doing this test? MF-H LDragoDestroy BD145 RF/MF?
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