Scythe Kronos T125RS

cangjieuser · Jan 13 2012 06:21 AM

As the title says, the combo is Scythe Kronos T125RS.
Scythe has to be in attack mode, as the PC frame acts as a counter attack and defense part. It absorbs hits like 230, and counter attacks when spin velocity is low.

<Test>

Standard Procedure
(All TT parts, RS slightly aggressive, sliding shoot for attack types)

Scythe Kronos T125RS VS MF-H VariAres CH120RF
(Scythe in attack mode, as said above)

VS 120 height, right spin:
Scythe wins 12/20 (60%, 2KO)
VariAres wins 8/20 (40%, all KO)

VS 145 height, right spin:
Scythe wins 14/20 (70%, 0 KO)
VariAres wins 6/20 (30%, all KO)

VS 120 height, left spin:
Scythe wins 14/20 (70%, 1KO)
VariAres wins 6/20 (30%, all KO)
With 1 draw

VS 145 height, left spin:
Scythe wins 16/20 (80%, 4KO)
VariAres wins 4/20 (20%, all KO)

Dan · Jan 13 2012 06:59 AM

I don't think the Defensive prowess you're experiencing with this combination is actually due to the combination itself, but probably an indecent launch.

Do this benchmark test:

MF-H VariAres CH120RF vs. MF-H Basalt Aquario GB145RS

I haven't set the standard too high here, it should give us a real feel of your skill in launching Rubber Flat which I feel is the reason your tests are so unorthodox.
Take a look at the Beywiki Youtube Channel which showcases the Sliding Shoot Technique in gruesome detail.

*Uwik* · Jan 13 2012 08:27 AM

Actually, Scythe RS is a known anti meta. It performs well against pure smash attackers. Generally, for this combo to be maximized, you need a low track (90/85). But just a little remainder, it fails miserably against MF-H LDrago Destroy BD145 RF.

Dan · Jan 13 2012 08:51 AM

I know of low track Scythe, not this though.

Wouldn't that just be grip-based defense, though? Not anti-meta?

Pcyborg · Jan 13 2012 09:52 AM

Its still a rubber based tip. It moves around quite a bit when launched with reasonable strength.

**Ultra** · Jan 13 2012 11:18 AM

Yeah but anti-meta uses fast moving attack bottoms which RS clearly isn't. Definitely not anti meta IMO.

*Uwik* · Jan 13 2012 11:35 AM

Why, again, are we stuck at the definition of a term used?

It's simply a stamina Metal Wheel, used defensively, and its sole purpose is to counter the current smash attack meta, namely MF-H VariAres CH120/R145 RF. All the while, it loses to many other meta combos. Now if that is not the perfect description of an Anti Meta, you tell me.

cangjieuser · Jan 13 2012 01:50 PM

(Jan 13 2012 06:59 AM)Dan Wrote: I don't think the Defensive prowess you're experiencing with this combination is actually due to the combination itself, but probably an indecent launch.

Do this benchmark test:

MF-H VariAres CH120RF vs. MF-H Basalt Aquario GB145RS

I haven't set the standard too high here, it should give us a real feel of your skill in launching Rubber Flat which I feel is the reason your tests are so unorthodox.
Take a look at the Beywiki Youtube Channel which showcases the Sliding Shoot Technique in gruesome detail.

I haven't got a GB145, so I'll go with R145; I don't want to wear my old RS too much and the new one's lost, so I'll go with RSF.

Standard procedure

MF-H VariAres CH120 RF VS MF-H Basalt Kerbecs R145RSF
@120 height, right spin:
VariAres wins 9/20 (45%)
Basalt wins 11/20 (55%)
3 draws

(Jan 13 2012 11:35 AM)Uwik Wrote: Why, again, are we stuck at the definition of a term used?

It's simply a stamina Metal Wheel, used defensively, and its sole purpose is to counter the current smash attack meta, namely MF-H VariAres CH120/R145 RF. All the while, it loses to many other meta combos. Now if that is not the perfect description of an Anti Meta, you tell me.

Standard procedure

Scythe Kronos T125RS VS MF-H Basalt Kerbecs R145RSF
(RS slightly aggressive)
Scythe wins 15/20 (75%)
Basalt wins 5/20 (25%)

Anti-Meta?

**Ultra** · Jan 13 2012 02:21 PM

(Jan 13 2012 11:35 AM)Uwik Wrote: Why, again, are we stuck at the definition of a term used?

It's simply a stamina Metal Wheel, used defensively, and its sole purpose is to counter the current smash attack meta, namely MF-H VariAres CH120/R145 RF. All the while, it loses to many other meta combos. Now if that is not the perfect description of an Anti Meta, you tell me.

Um fine but in case you hadn't realised the majority of Anti Meta combos have used RF and R2F. Also the ones using RF and R2F clearly aren't being used defensively since they're attacking the attack combos. There's no proper definition IIRC so it's not exactly like it's hard to get confused...

@Cangjieuser

Those results make me even less confident in your ability to use an attack combo. That combo isn't that great and skilled attack users would probably be able get better results. However it's possible that the nature of RSF's movement and Vari Ares recoil allows it to knock the attack combo out. How many of those wins for Basalt were KOs? Also why did you do those tests for the second one. There was no chance that the Basalt combo would do better than the other combo. An Anti Meta combo's worth is proven by how well they do against Attack combo. That Basalt combo is a defence combo or if you really want to stretch it possibly an Anti Meta.

*Uwik* · Jan 13 2012 02:37 PM

Anti Meta should not be generalized with the parts used anyway. Rather, the function it serves. However, when you start categorizing parts when talking about Anti Meta, you should perhaps start with the Metal Wheel, the bottom is secondary. Eg: Libra/Basalt for Attack, Scythe for Defense, etc. But this discussion is already off-topic. Feel free to PM me if you wish to continue the discussion.

@cangjieuser: I apologize for derailing your thread. Please do continue with your tests.

Janstarblast · Jan 13 2012 02:50 PM

Well, I find this weird, to be honest.
It shouldn't get such high win rates, and as others said, it might be your launch. Smile

RS is a failure against Left Spin Attackers...
I wonder what happened here...

cangjieuser · Jan 13 2012 02:50 PM

(Jan 13 2012 02:21 PM)Ultrablader Wrote: @Cangjieuser

Those results make me even less confident in your ability to use an attack combo. That combo isn't that great and skilled attack users would probably be able get better results. However it's possible that the nature of RSF's movement and Vari Ares recoil allows it to knock the attack combo out. How many of those wins for Basalt were KOs? Also why did you do those tests for the second one. There was no chance that the Basalt combo would do better than the other combo. An Anti Meta combo's worth is proven by how well they do against Attack combo. That Basalt combo is a defence combo or if you really want to stretch it possibly an Anti Meta.

Well, I'm not good at the wordings, so I'm not clear of what is "Anti Meta".

So, are you saying that I shall do more tests to prove my "sliding shoot" is good enough to do tests for my own combo?

Janstarblast · Jan 13 2012 02:59 PM

Yes, that's just what we mean to say.
The win rates of the Attack combos you use are significantly lower than they actually should be.
OK, against Right Spin Attack, I may be inclined to believe that RS managed to get those win rates.
But against Left Spin Attack?! And more importantly, against VariAres?! Chocked_2

Well, even though such combos are known to defeat VariAres to some extent, this seems strange.
How were the battles? I mean, what happened in them? Did VariAres miss attacks? Did Scythe get wall-saves?

*Uwik* · Jan 13 2012 03:23 PM

Jan, I've used this combo competitively before as an Anti Meta, albeit with an 85 track. His results seems valid.

It has a high win rate against smash attackers regardless it's left/right spinner. VariAres/Blitz/Beat.

But, to be honest, it loses to everything else. It loses to stamina, most defense types with a decent stamina. It also loses to attack types that utilizes 'push' technique. BD145 variants etc.

Janstarblast · Jan 13 2012 03:26 PM

Hm...
But well, I never expected this to do good against Left Spin...
Any reasons why it does so well? Confused

And oh wow, this means LLD BD145LRF is still useful against something. Tongue_out

*Uwik* · Jan 13 2012 03:27 PM

Lightning is a little light to 'push' Scythe RS, but yes you have the idea. LDrago Destory would be better in this case.

Janstarblast · Jan 13 2012 03:33 PM

Well yeah, I was joking. Tongue_out

Hey wait, just realized-
Is this combo performing well due to the slightly aggressive RS(in place of a rather calm RS) being used with it?

**Sniper** · Jan 13 2012 03:40 PM

Yes all of his rates are good. I've gotten better before using mf-h scythe cancer 85 rs and I've had Uwik test it out for me. I never made a thread because i was waiting to bring it out at tournament but i never got to use it Pinching_grin

*Uwik* · Jan 13 2012 03:41 PM

It's Scythe on a rubber bottom. RSF is a good substitute. That means the bottom's aggression doesn't really alter the result much.

Janstarblast · Jan 13 2012 03:43 PM

Ah, so its solely based on Scythe...
Great!
Thanks for the info, Uwik!
But I wonder.... *talk to myself*
Why just Scythe?
This is probably off topic, so, don't answer please! Grin

cangjieuser	Post: #1 As the title says, the combo is Scythe Kronos T125RS. Scythe has to be in attack mode, as the PC frame acts as a counter attack and defense part. It absorbs hits like 230, and counter attacks when spin velocity is low. <Test> Standard Procedure (All TT parts, RS slightly aggressive, sliding shoot for attack types) Scythe Kronos T125RS VS MF-H VariAres CH120RF (Scythe in attack mode, as said above) VS 120 height, right spin: Scythe wins 12/20 (60%, 2KO) VariAres wins 8/20 (40%, all KO) VS 145 height, right spin: Scythe wins 14/20 (70%, 0 KO) VariAres wins 6/20 (30%, all KO) VS 120 height, left spin: Scythe wins 14/20 (70%, 1KO) VariAres wins 6/20 (30%, all KO) With 1 draw VS 145 height, left spin: Scythe wins 16/20 (80%, 4KO) VariAres wins 4/20 (20%, all KO)
Jan 13 2012 06:21 AM

Dan WORLDWAR2CHAINZ MFB: #391 (1,156)	Post: #2 I don't think the Defensive prowess you're experiencing with this combination is actually due to the combination itself, but probably an indecent launch. Do this benchmark test: MF-H VariAres CH120RF vs. MF-H Basalt Aquario GB145RS I haven't set the standard too high here, it should give us a real feel of your skill in launching Rubber Flat which I feel is the reason your tests are so unorthodox. Take a look at the Beywiki Youtube Channel which showcases the Sliding Shoot Technique in gruesome detail. shout out 2 kai-v
Jan 13 2012 06:59 AM

*Uwik* Professor Processor MFB: #30 (1,498) View All Faces	Post: #3 Actually, Scythe RS is a known anti meta. It performs well against pure smash attackers. Generally, for this combo to be maximized, you need a low track (90/85). But just a little remainder, it fails miserably against MF-H LDrago Destroy BD145 RF.
Jan 13 2012 08:27 AM

Dan WORLDWAR2CHAINZ MFB: #391 (1,156)	Post: #4 I know of low track Scythe, not this though. Wouldn't that just be grip-based defense, though? Not anti-meta? shout out 2 kai-v
Jan 13 2012 08:51 AM

Pcyborg Inconsistent Inc. MFB: #3,245 (933)	Post: #5 Its still a rubber based tip. It moves around quite a bit when launched with reasonable strength.
Jan 13 2012 09:52 AM

Ultra UK Burst #1 BURST: #13 (1,180) MFB: #73 (1,384) View All Faces	Post: #6 Yeah but anti-meta uses fast moving attack bottoms which RS clearly isn't. Definitely not anti meta IMO.
Jan 13 2012 11:18 AM

*Uwik* Professor Processor MFB: #30 (1,498) View All Faces	Post: #7 Why, again, are we stuck at the definition of a term used? It's simply a stamina Metal Wheel, used defensively, and its sole purpose is to counter the current smash attack meta, namely MF-H VariAres CH120/R145 RF. All the while, it loses to many other meta combos. Now if that is not the perfect description of an Anti Meta, you tell me.
Jan 13 2012 11:35 AM

cangjieuser	Post: #8 (Jan 13 2012 06:59 AM)Dan Wrote: I don't think the Defensive prowess you're experiencing with this combination is actually due to the combination itself, but probably an indecent launch. Do this benchmark test: MF-H VariAres CH120RF vs. MF-H Basalt Aquario GB145RS I haven't set the standard too high here, it should give us a real feel of your skill in launching Rubber Flat which I feel is the reason your tests are so unorthodox. Take a look at the Beywiki Youtube Channel which showcases the Sliding Shoot Technique in gruesome detail. I haven't got a GB145, so I'll go with R145; I don't want to wear my old RS too much and the new one's lost, so I'll go with RSF. Standard procedure MF-H VariAres CH120 RF VS MF-H Basalt Kerbecs R145RSF @120 height, right spin: VariAres wins 9/20 (45%) Basalt wins 11/20 (55%) 3 draws (Jan 13 2012 11:35 AM)Uwik Wrote: Why, again, are we stuck at the definition of a term used? It's simply a stamina Metal Wheel, used defensively, and its sole purpose is to counter the current smash attack meta, namely MF-H VariAres CH120/R145 RF. All the while, it loses to many other meta combos. Now if that is not the perfect description of an Anti Meta, you tell me. Standard procedure Scythe Kronos T125RS VS MF-H Basalt Kerbecs R145RSF (RS slightly aggressive) Scythe wins 15/20 (75%) Basalt wins 5/20 (25%) Anti-Meta?
Jan 13 2012 01:50 PM

Ultra UK Burst #1 BURST: #13 (1,180) MFB: #73 (1,384) View All Faces	Post: #9 (This post was last modified: Jan 13 2012 02:29 PM by Ultra.) (Jan 13 2012 11:35 AM)Uwik Wrote: Why, again, are we stuck at the definition of a term used? It's simply a stamina Metal Wheel, used defensively, and its sole purpose is to counter the current smash attack meta, namely MF-H VariAres CH120/R145 RF. All the while, it loses to many other meta combos. Now if that is not the perfect description of an Anti Meta, you tell me. Um fine but in case you hadn't realised the majority of Anti Meta combos have used RF and R2F. Also the ones using RF and R2F clearly aren't being used defensively since they're attacking the attack combos. There's no proper definition IIRC so it's not exactly like it's hard to get confused... @Cangjieuser Those results make me even less confident in your ability to use an attack combo. That combo isn't that great and skilled attack users would probably be able get better results. However it's possible that the nature of RSF's movement and Vari Ares recoil allows it to knock the attack combo out. How many of those wins for Basalt were KOs? Also why did you do those tests for the second one. There was no chance that the Basalt combo would do better than the other combo. An Anti Meta combo's worth is proven by how well they do against Attack combo. That Basalt combo is a defence combo or if you really want to stretch it possibly an Anti Meta.
Jan 13 2012 02:21 PM

*Uwik* Professor Processor MFB: #30 (1,498) View All Faces	Post: #10 Anti Meta should not be generalized with the parts used anyway. Rather, the function it serves. However, when you start categorizing parts when talking about Anti Meta, you should perhaps start with the Metal Wheel, the bottom is secondary. Eg: Libra/Basalt for Attack, Scythe for Defense, etc. But this discussion is already off-topic. Feel free to PM me if you wish to continue the discussion. @cangjieuser: I apologize for derailing your thread. Please do continue with your tests.
Jan 13 2012 02:37 PM

Janstarblast KAI-NETIC ENERGY MFB: #242 (1,223)	Post: #11 Well, I find this weird, to be honest. It shouldn't get such high win rates, and as others said, it might be your launch. RS is a failure against Left Spin Attackers... I wonder what happened here... Team IB Revolutions Thanks to N0body for the avatar and Synth for the signature!
Jan 13 2012 02:50 PM

cangjieuser	Post: #12 (Jan 13 2012 02:21 PM)Ultrablader Wrote: @Cangjieuser Those results make me even less confident in your ability to use an attack combo. That combo isn't that great and skilled attack users would probably be able get better results. However it's possible that the nature of RSF's movement and Vari Ares recoil allows it to knock the attack combo out. How many of those wins for Basalt were KOs? Also why did you do those tests for the second one. There was no chance that the Basalt combo would do better than the other combo. An Anti Meta combo's worth is proven by how well they do against Attack combo. That Basalt combo is a defence combo or if you really want to stretch it possibly an Anti Meta. Well, I'm not good at the wordings, so I'm not clear of what is "Anti Meta". So, are you saying that I shall do more tests to prove my "sliding shoot" is good enough to do tests for my own combo?
Jan 13 2012 02:50 PM

Janstarblast KAI-NETIC ENERGY MFB: #242 (1,223)	Post: #13 Yes, that's just what we mean to say. The win rates of the Attack combos you use are significantly lower than they actually should be. OK, against Right Spin Attack, I may be inclined to believe that RS managed to get those win rates. But against Left Spin Attack?! And more importantly, against VariAres?! Well, even though such combos are known to defeat VariAres to some extent, this seems strange. How were the battles? I mean, what happened in them? Did VariAres miss attacks? Did Scythe get wall-saves? Team IB Revolutions Thanks to N0body for the avatar and Synth for the signature!
Jan 13 2012 02:59 PM

*Uwik* Professor Processor MFB: #30 (1,498) View All Faces	Post: #14 Jan, I've used this combo competitively before as an Anti Meta, albeit with an 85 track. His results seems valid. It has a high win rate against smash attackers regardless it's left/right spinner. VariAres/Blitz/Beat. But, to be honest, it loses to everything else. It loses to stamina, most defense types with a decent stamina. It also loses to attack types that utilizes 'push' technique. BD145 variants etc.
Jan 13 2012 03:23 PM

Janstarblast KAI-NETIC ENERGY MFB: #242 (1,223)	Post: #15 Hm... But well, I never expected this to do good against Left Spin... Any reasons why it does so well? And oh wow, this means LLD BD145LRF is still useful against something. Team IB Revolutions Thanks to N0body for the avatar and Synth for the signature!
Jan 13 2012 03:26 PM

*Uwik* Professor Processor MFB: #30 (1,498) View All Faces	Post: #16 Lightning is a little light to 'push' Scythe RS, but yes you have the idea. LDrago Destory would be better in this case.
Jan 13 2012 03:27 PM

Janstarblast KAI-NETIC ENERGY MFB: #242 (1,223)	Post: #17 (This post was last modified: Jan 13 2012 03:33 PM by Janstarblast.) Well yeah, I was joking. Hey wait, just realized- Is this combo performing well due to the slightly aggressive RS(in place of a rather calm RS) being used with it? Team IB Revolutions Thanks to N0body for the avatar and Synth for the signature!
Jan 13 2012 03:33 PM

Sniper on my way to the top BURST: #38 (1,078) MFB: #18 (1,556) View All Faces	Post: #18 Yes all of his rates are good. I've gotten better before using mf-h scythe cancer 85 rs and I've had Uwik test it out for me. I never made a thread because i was waiting to bring it out at tournament but i never got to use it Follow me on Twitter @MahoutsukaiDomo
Jan 13 2012 03:40 PM

*Uwik* Professor Processor MFB: #30 (1,498) View All Faces	Post: #19 It's Scythe on a rubber bottom. RSF is a good substitute. That means the bottom's aggression doesn't really alter the result much.
Jan 13 2012 03:41 PM

Janstarblast KAI-NETIC ENERGY MFB: #242 (1,223)	Post: #20 (This post was last modified: Jan 13 2012 03:45 PM by Janstarblast.) Ah, so its solely based on Scythe... Great! Thanks for the info, Uwik! But I wonder.... talk to myself Why just Scythe? This is probably off topic, so, don't answer please! Team IB Revolutions Thanks to N0body for the avatar and Synth for the signature!
Jan 13 2012 03:43 PM