Safety on the WBO


Arupaeo
(Oct. 15, 2011  1:19 AM)Cookies^^ Wrote: Now, my question is, should tournament holders be responsible if the participant gets in danger whatsoever?
First of all, the question here is really addressing "gets in danger" which i think really refers to an implied kidnapping or criminal assault of the most unsavory variety by an outside third party, the "joggers videotaping" or some other uninvolved entity. Even event insurance does not cover injury by individuals who are not employees or agents of the organizing body.

(Oct. 15, 2011  1:23 AM)Deikailo Wrote: This depends on your country and state. For example, if someone were to get hurt at an event I host, their parent could turn around and sue me for everything I own and everything that I will eventually own and earn as I have no insurance for my event.

This is a different question about getting hurt, not being in danger. Yes, in America an injured party will sue everyone: The WBO, its directors, and its volunteers including the hosts and judges who were acting as the WBO's agents on site. To this point, I agree with Deikailo. If the WBO doesn't already have some sort of general corporate liability insurance or multiple event insurance, it needs to!

(Oct. 15, 2011  2:05 AM)Hazel Wrote: The host should be held responsible for anything that occurs on the grounds of the event. To and from, however, is not really in any way their business or liability.

To this, I am also in partial agreement. Hosts and judges are agents of the WBO who have been selected, screened, and authorized to act on the WBO's behalf. While the WBO may decide to terminate the services of any such agent, the liability for their actions rests firmly with the WBO as the authorizing entity. There are loads of business and criminal case law in every jursidication in the country establishing this fact. This does not absolve the agents of liability for comparative or contributory negligence, but the WBO is on the hook here as well. The part I don't agree with is the statement about "to or from". Again there is a large body of case law surrounding the responsibilities of businesses to patrons leaving their establishments that cover everything from being too drunk to drive, to the condition of lighting on the property and general safety of the environs. While the first does not apply, you better believe that letting a 10 year old kid leave a tournament to walk home through a dark park at night does.



There was a question not long ago on the boards about blading on tables at tournaments. I have to tell you, this is the one activity where I feel there is real risk for us. If we allow young kids to stand at eye level with a table being used for tournament play, all it takes is one Blitz wheel (or any other wheel for that matter) to fly off and hit that kid in the eye to bring this whole party crashing down. There's nothing a jury loves to reward more than an innocent child who has been permanently injured or disfigured due to a clear act of negligence.

Again, if we don't have some sort of corporate insurance to cover liability we need to get it. At the very least, I feel that we need to have a consultation with an attorney well versed in international business liability to evaluate our risk profile and make a recommendation.
On my "to or from" issue, I was moreso implying it in the event that parental transport was the attendee's method of getting there. If the person simply walked, or was dropped off and left an address to be taken back to, then the responsibility does fall upon the host. Really, I should've just said "to", because how they get there is beyond the control of the Host - how they leave, however, can be impacted. I apologize for this oversight.

As for Table safety, I've spoken on the issue before... I personally do not think it should be allowed unless the eye-level height is relatively the same as it would be if the participants were kneeling and the Stadium were on the ground.
BeybladeStation
(Oct. 15, 2011  2:05 AM)Hazel Wrote:
(Oct. 15, 2011  1:34 AM)BeybladeStation Wrote: Why not make it clear then to enter that the parent is responsible?

You cannot fight something you agreed to.

That's just poor form, really. It's not going to make the parents, or anyone else for that matter, feel any better that you're signing over all responsibility for anything that happens at your event. The host should be held responsible for anything that occurs on the grounds of the event. To and from, however, is not really in any way their business or liability.
No, that is completely denial.

Denial of what? Denial of that the parent was supposed to take care of their child and that ruining someone's life is not worth a little "boo-boo".

Seriously, if you're gonna hold an event hosting what? Over 100? You need to do something and you need to announce in some form that parents should watch over their children.

If you cannot take care of a child for three hours with Beyblade, that is just not right.

You have to realize that much can happen at a tournament of 100 attendees.

What the tourney holder should do is bring a First-Aid Kit. Believe me, parents know someone is prepared hell for the worst if they have some resort to last to.

I think it would be bull for Deikailo to be sued because of some small injury that the kid himself could take care of.
Deikailo
(Oct. 15, 2011  4:15 AM)BeybladeStation Wrote: What the tourney holder should do is bring a First-Aid Kit. Believe me, parents know someone is prepared hell for the worst if they have some resort to last to.

I think it would be bull for Deikailo to be sued because of some small injury that the kid himself could take care of.
Most of the time, it's not a small injury that they'll go after you for. I also like hosting in hobby shops for the reason of I am no longer the liable party; the store is. They pay insurance anyway.

(Oct. 15, 2011  3:03 AM)Kai-V Wrote: In terms of safety of one kid, I think the biggest and almost only danger is if they challenge someone directly and arrange a meet-up with only one person. This is why we encourage tournaments a lot : you are a lot safer with at least eight people around you, even if they are also strangers.


We had an event where a kid threw a huge tantrum just for losing a match and he ended up trying to get himself killed on the street; apparently his parent was there somewhere, but I do not see how anyone could possibly be blamed or sued for whatever could have happened, it was that kid's own stupidity and obvious lack of "socially-able" behaviour that could have caused drama.
Because in America, capitalism runs our company. Haven't you heard about the socialist protests on Wall Street? Redistributing wealth (in this case, exploiting injury) is the way to go!
BeybladeStation
Plus that it is inside..

I still that, that it is bull to sue someone like that. What are you benefiting morally? Life.

Either way, I think some announcement should be made so the parent should actually watch over, whether how long it is.

We had a good 35 at MAXIMUM BATTLES 1.0. Most parents met the other parents, share phone numbers, kids became friends, great time. Parents liked it, but the kids who won.. eh.. those parents weren't so happy knowing the tourney lasted 4 hours.. hah.
(Oct. 15, 2011  4:15 AM)BeybladeStation Wrote:
(Oct. 15, 2011  2:05 AM)Hazel Wrote:
(Oct. 15, 2011  1:34 AM)BeybladeStation Wrote: Why not make it clear then to enter that the parent is responsible?

You cannot fight something you agreed to.

That's just poor form, really. It's not going to make the parents, or anyone else for that matter, feel any better that you're signing over all responsibility for anything that happens at your event. The host should be held responsible for anything that occurs on the grounds of the event. To and from, however, is not really in any way their business or liability.
No, that is completely denial.

Denial of what? Denial of that the parent was supposed to take care of their child and that ruining someone's life is not worth a little "boo-boo".

Seriously, if you're gonna hold an event hosting what? Over 100? You need to do something and you need to announce in some form that parents should watch over their children.

If you cannot take care of a child for three hours with Beyblade, that is just not right.

You have to realize that much can happen at a tournament of 100 attendees.

What the tourney holder should do is bring a First-Aid Kit. Believe me, parents know someone is prepared hell for the worst if they have some resort to last to.

I think it would be bull for Deikailo to be sued because of some small injury that the kid himself could take care of.

You're very out of touch with reality.

Whether you're the wrongful party, or the liable party for that matter, or not, if a child gets injured or whathaveyou on a serious enough level to cause parental concern, you WILL shoulder some manner of the blame, and potentially the repercussions of it.

A parent is not going to be kosher with taking a child somewhere and then being told that if anything happens to their kid there, it was their own fault - that's NOT how organizing events works, in any station of this world. Either the host, or the owner of the venue the host has chosen, has to(and will, whether they like it or not) suffer the consequences if anything of an ill nature occurs to a child there, unless it is a very specific incident(such as someone sneaking in a knife and shanking a nine year old for his R2F with a bar in it) that can absolutely be blamed on a sole individual.

Parents should watch over their children, but the events occurring at the venue are at the liability of the grounds and the host.
Deikailo
(Oct. 15, 2011  4:24 AM)BeybladeStation Wrote: Plus that it is inside..

I still that, that it is bull to sue someone like that. What are you benefiting morally? Life.

Either way, I think some announcement should be made so the parent should actually watch over, whether how long it is.

We had a good 35 at MAXIMUM BATTLES 1.0. Most parents met the other parents, share phone numbers, kids became friends, great time. Parents liked it, but the kids who won.. eh.. those parents weren't so happy knowing the tourney lasted 4 hours.. hah.
I think the opportunity to blame someone else for their child being injured instead of owning up to the fact that their kid was being foolish or that they just didn't exhibit appropriate parental skills in watching over their children is much more appealing. Money also helps that appeal.

You really have far too much faith in humanity to think that blaming someone else for profit is not worth sacrificing your morals.
BeybladeStation
Like Kai-V said, if that shanking thing were true, it would be from the kids stupidity,

And I am "in touch with reality", because people will do anything for the dough.
Kai-V
(Oct. 15, 2011  4:26 AM)Hazel Wrote: Whether you're the wrongful party, or the liable party for that matter, or not, if a child gets injured or whathaveyou on a serious enough level to cause parental concern, you WILL shoulder some manner of the blame, and potentially the repercussions of it.

A parent is not going to be kosher with taking a child somewhere and then being told that if anything happens to their kid there, it was their own fault - that's NOT how organizing events works, in any station of this world. Either the host, or the owner of the venue the host has chosen, has to(and will, whether they like it or not) suffer the consequences if anything of an ill nature occurs to a child there, unless it is a very specific incident(such as someone sneaking in a knife and shanking a nine year old for his R2F with a bar in it) that can absolutely be blamed on a sole individual.

Parents should watch over their children, but the events occurring at the venue are at the liability of the grounds and the host.

So what, we stop holding tournaments ?
Deikailo
(Oct. 15, 2011  4:34 AM)Kai-V Wrote: So what, we stop holding tournaments ?
I think this narrows it down to as Arupaeo has to be careful when hosting tournaments since every other host is under 18 or broke (me).

And the committee are in completely different countries so they are covered by a border.
(Oct. 15, 2011  3:03 AM)Kai-V Wrote: In terms of safety of one kid, I think the biggest and almost only danger is if they challenge someone directly and arrange a meet-up with only one person. This is why we encourage tournaments a lot : you are a lot safer with at least eight people around you, even if they are also strangers.


We had an event where a kid threw a huge tantrum just for losing a match and he ended up trying to get himself killed on the street; apparently his parent was there somewhere, but I do not see how anyone could possibly be blamed or sued for whatever could have happened, it was that kid's own stupidity and obvious lack of "socially-able" behaviour that could have caused drama.

This is the issue I had in mind when starting this thread. Though this whole discussion has brought about everyone's POV as to safety, their precautions, etc.; my concern lied in the bolded portion of the above.

Just to clarify, I believe the WBO is a very safe community, as it has been for years. Again, though, believe that there is something to point out in the amount of minors that are contacting people on a one-on-one basis to arrange meet-ups and the like, sometimes already giving an address to meet at (at least in my experience). I'm sure people have met up outside of tournament activity and had a blast, but there are also many ways that such an event could present issues, I believe.

Frank
Hazel
(Oct. 15, 2011  4:34 AM)Kai-V Wrote:
(Oct. 15, 2011  4:26 AM)Hazel Wrote: Whether you're the wrongful party, or the liable party for that matter, or not, if a child gets injured or whathaveyou on a serious enough level to cause parental concern, you WILL shoulder some manner of the blame, and potentially the repercussions of it.

A parent is not going to be kosher with taking a child somewhere and then being told that if anything happens to their kid there, it was their own fault - that's NOT how organizing events works, in any station of this world. Either the host, or the owner of the venue the host has chosen, has to(and will, whether they like it or not) suffer the consequences if anything of an ill nature occurs to a child there, unless it is a very specific incident(such as someone sneaking in a knife and shanking a nine year old for his R2F with a bar in it) that can absolutely be blamed on a sole individual.

Parents should watch over their children, but the events occurring at the venue are at the liability of the grounds and the host.

So what, we stop holding tournaments ?

Absolutely not. I'm simply laying down the facts - parents will turn first on people other than themselves if something goes wrong. As you and Deikailo have already explained, it's extraordinarily rare that "bad things" occur, and so far we've got a clean record.

The hosts and the places the hosts choose will be legally responsible, though, and should do their best to ensure the safety of their participants, rather than telling the parents it's all on them, as BBS was assumedly suggesting.

I am in no way advocating any kind of measures to reduce the frequency of tournaments or call them out as an unsafe protocol - personally, I find that the WBO has such a clean record is absolutely wonderful. I am simply stating what parents will see, and do, first, and that we should always be extra vigilant in knowing things are as safe as possible, and that we have insurance in case something DOES go wrong.
Deikailo
Insurance costs 3 or 4 figures per event, bromeo.

I think picking your venue wisely is a good way to prevent disaster. Have it close to food and bathrooms (in case someone has hypoglycemia like I do), make it visible and accessible, avoid high places, and also be mindful of passerby's who are not a part of the event.
(Oct. 15, 2011  4:51 AM)Deikailo Wrote: Insurance costs 3 or 4 figures per event, bromeo.

I think picking your venue wisely is a good way to prevent disaster. Have it close to food and bathrooms (in case someone has hypoglycemia like I do), make it visible and accessible, avoid high places, and also be mindful of passerby's who are not a part of the event.

If it's going to be a larger event where things might get out of control, then picking an insured venue is kind of what I was implying. Literal insurance shouldn't really be necessary for smaller events.
Kai-V
Hm, people with hypoglycemia or other food disorders should always carry food on them. Of course, if all the resources are unfortunately used during that day, there needs to be a sort of restaurant somewhere close, but initially it should be the responsibility of the person to bring enough food for what they know their problem might need.
Deikailo
(Oct. 15, 2011  4:54 AM)Kai-V Wrote: Hm, people with hypoglycemia or other food disorders should always carry food on them. Of course, if all the resources are unfortunately used during that day, there needs to be a sort of restaurant somewhere close, but initially it should be the responsibility of the person to bring enough food for what they know their problem might need.
You know, I hate my memory. I just always assume I will be in reach of food.
Arupaeo
(Oct. 15, 2011  4:34 AM)Kai-V Wrote: So what, we stop holding tournaments ?

I don't think we stop holding tournaments, but we should get insurance. Our events aren't getting any smaller...

(Oct. 15, 2011  4:41 AM)Deikailo Wrote: I think this narrows it down to as Arupaeo has to be careful when hosting tournaments since every other host is under 18 or broke (me).

Hah. Given my recent relationship with Georgetown and SallieMae I think I might be broker than the rest of you put together.

(Oct. 15, 2011  4:53 AM)Hazel Wrote:
(Oct. 15, 2011  4:51 AM)Deikailo Wrote: Insurance costs 3 or 4 figures per event, bromeo.
...
If it's going to be a larger event where things might get out of control, then picking an insured venue is kind of what I was implying. Literal insurance shouldn't really be necessary for smaller events.

General corporate insurance policies usually cover small events. But big or small, if you aren't covered you are at risk.
Deikailo
It's going to be winter soon. It's easier to just rope in an indoor venue like I did. It would save us some trouble.
Uwik
Oh wow, this thread smells like Hasbro policy. Seriously, just use common sense, and be considerate.
Kai-V
(Oct. 15, 2011  5:17 AM)Uwik Wrote: Oh wow, this thread smells like Hasbro policy. Seriously, just use common sense, and be considerate.

Apparently, common sense for the United States = suing at the most stupid thing.
Deikailo
(Oct. 15, 2011  5:17 AM)Uwik Wrote: Oh wow, this thread smells like Hasbro policy. Seriously, just use common sense, and be considerate.
You would think people would do this, wouldn't you? I am beginning to think that common sense is such a rarity. Consideration seems almost unheard of where I am.
(Oct. 15, 2011  5:19 AM)Kai-V Wrote:
(Oct. 15, 2011  5:17 AM)Uwik Wrote: Oh wow, this thread smells like Hasbro policy. Seriously, just use common sense, and be considerate.

Apparently, common sense for the United States = suing at the most stupid thing.
Any legal extortion for unearned funds = common sense in the US.
Arupaeo
Well, to be fair, while the tort system in the US is currently out of control it has provided a great deal of consumer benefit through the development of all manner of consumer protection laws and holding corporate entities accountable for fairly unspeakable acts in the past. Should there be more balance and restraint in its execution? Yes. But I fear we are falling a bit astray in the discussion now...
It is dangerous to have younger kids organize battles across the country with strangers. WBO offlicials should attempt to prevent it.
Kai-V
(Oct. 19, 2011  1:42 AM)zainx2 Wrote: It is dangerous to have younger kids organize battles across the country with strangers. WBO offlicials should attempt to prevent it.

It is always younger kids we trust. Strangers are not going to be able to do anything anyway : one would be totally outnumbered and some kids would come with their parents, so a 'deranged-looking' man at a Beyblade tournament is definitely not going to work. Furthermore, most tournaments are done in public places, and most hosts are 'old'.

If you were actually referring to what Aikemi made this topic about, which is kids sending challenges to people in private messages, most of the time those kids send messages to people on the other side of the planet, or it will never happen anyway. In any case, there is no way for us to know. Someone could be insulting me behind my back and I have no idea, just a suspicion, so we cannot be responsible for what happens in a private discussion that we are not aware of.
*Whisper whisper...Kai-V's an idiot...*CHUCKLE!* whisper whisper...*

The best thing is just to maybe add to the beginning PM that you need to be careful about who you trust. Obviously a little more specific than that, but it's the basic idea that counts.