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[STD/LTD] Metal Face-Middle and its Effects on Spin-Equalizers

Jan. 03, 2014  5:52 PM
 
Note that the title of this thread relates to both Limited and Standard format. I'm addressing both when I speak here (although I figured posting it in Standard would be appropriate, given it's more centralized).

MF-M has been used on customs to improve their Precession in the past, because it supposedly alters the center of gravity to the point where the custom has a uniquely enhanced ability to remain stable/upright (or, in the case of some high-track Balance customs like MF-M Duo Cygnus 230MB, the ability to "pick itself up") at low spin velocities.

I am personally opposed to this notion. I have done extensive informal testing on the subject, and I believe that, not only does MF-M fail to provide an increase in Precession on Spin-Equalizers, but it actually decreases the custom's Precession by a very disturbing amount.

As we all know, the Flywheel Effect, or the wide, outward distribution of weight that allows a rotating object to maintain spin velocity/stability, is decreased the further inward you place weight within a Beyblade. MF-M is, in fact, decreasing this effect (which can be beneficial in some cases where a specific combination calls for higher spin velocity, but not in this case).

Let's say that you have two wooden dowels. You have some glue, a marble, and a dinner plate near you. You glue a dowel to each one, and spin them each with your hand. The dowel with the marble on it almost immediately completely loses spin velocity and topples over within a couple seconds. The dinner plate, however, continues to spin and remains upright for quite a long time.

This is the Flywheel Effect at work. The dinner plate has much wider distributed weight (more weight farther out on the edges) than the marble, which is not very wide and has its weight closer to its center. With MF-M, you are moving the weight of the Beyblade closer to its center, which will decrease both Precession and maintainance of spin velocity, which is not a good thing at all for a Spin-Equalizer.

I've done some mirror testing to support my point:

TheBlackDragon Wrote:MF-M Gravity Perseus (Stamina ver.) SA165 (normal mode) WD vs. Gravity Perseus (Stamina ver.) SA165 (normal mode) WD
Normal Face launched first on even launches, MF-M launched first on odd. Bottoms, Metal Wheels and Clear Wheels in MINT condition. Parts and spin direction swapped after round 25.
Detail Results (Click to View)
MF-M: 18 (18 OS, 0 KO)
Normal Face: 32 (32 OS, 0 KO)
MF-M Win %: 36.0%

Ties redone: 24

In these tests, the matches were obviously very close, but as the testing went on it became painfully evident that MF-M was beginning to wobble noticeably earlier and more intensely than the Normal Face. It was, of course, still quite close as most opposite-spin matchups tend to be, but the Normal Face clearly had an advantage in terms of Precession/stability.

Well, that's all I got. Discuss, enjoy, and feel free to test if you can!

Thanks for reading guys! Smile
Jan. 03, 2014  6:00 PM
 
I've never been a fan of MF-M either. It seems that MF-M doesn't help as much as originally thought. I will do some tests in a little bit to maybe support yours.

Since this is both standard and limited, couldn't you just put it in the regular beyblade customizations forum?
Jan. 03, 2014  6:02 PM
 
Well, I though about that, but I didn't know if we were supposed to post anything there.

A mod can move it if it's in the wrong place. Smile
Jan. 03, 2014  6:04 PM
 
I haven't done any formal testing, but while experimenting with Gravity-based spin-stealers, which I used a lot in the pre-Zero G period, I didn't find MF-M to be a good option either. My testing mostly involved Gravity 105 WD going against Hell BD145 WD, Basalt AD145 WD and Earth AD145 WD. And during my tests, the MF-L and the normal face achieved the best results.

Also, from a pure Physics perspective(which you have explained very well in the OP), the moment of inertia of the beyblade is the least when using MF-M. It is a little higher when using the MF-H and even higher when using MF-L. This of course means that it becomes easier to stop a beyblade that has MF-M rather than an MF-H or an MF-L. Again, the moment of inertia(which depends on the mass and weight distribution both), is higher for an MF-L(due to an outward weight distribution) than for a normal face(which has a slightly lesser weight distributed uniformly).
I've always wanted to write a proper article in the Physics thread regarding all this but I keep forgetting :\
Jan. 03, 2014  6:11 PM
 
That's actually been my experience as well. I don't know if there's a logical explanation for it, but I get impressive results with MSF-L on Zero-G customs. The weight is focused more inward (not nearly as inward as MSF-M), but it seems to help with some things (normal face is usually better, but select customs like MSF-L Girago Dragooon SA165 (Att.) EWD work well with it).

Go figure. XD
Jan. 03, 2014  6:13 PM
 
The issue with inertia arguments is that for efficient spin stealing you're trying to [b]decrease[/i] your moment of inertia - you're in opposite spin, so they're not stopping you when they hit you (aside from your rotational recoil), they should be speeding you up.

On another note, seeing as I just learnt some physics from googlin', for same-spin matchups, a regular face and an MF-M aren't the same weight, which means compared to a regular face, while the radius the centre of gravity sits at decreases, the overall mass increases, which basically reduces the negative impact of that weight being at the center of the beyblade. I'm pretty sure from playing around with light wheels that there's a crossover point where an MF-H is actually good for stamina, but I'm also pretty sure the rest of the beyblade has to be realllly light for that to matter.

But, anyway, those tests speak for themselves and on closer observation I see what you mean about MF-M wobbling more, so for limited at least you've convinced me. For standard, it's going to be more about what MSF-M/L/H do in terms of helping your stability, so there's more to be investigated there.


Also don't want to get into this argument just now but I'm pretty sure we settled on the term "spin stealer",
which I am quite happy with as weak launching is almost always the best tactic for such a combo in STD and LTD (dunno about zg but I assume not, seeing as that would make you more susceptible to zgko) so you're gonna be dropping the opponents spin and increasing your own from that in equalisation - i.e. stealing spin. Good spin stealers also were supposed to give less back if they were at higher rpm, which was the thought process behind wide survivor in standard but idk whether that is borne out by physics, because there are a lot of reasons Wide Survivor works well aside from that.


Also tbh the difference in centralised weight between any -M and -L, given the L's are usually a touch heavier, is probably going to be pretty small. As such, what you're seeing with MSF-L improving zg customs is probably just that the extra weight is helping more with the recoil and overall wheel balance without being so centred it's messing you up.

And yeah probably belongs in the customizations forum itself rather than this subforum.
Jan. 03, 2014  6:17 PM
 
Since you said MF-M has been used on customs in the past, why make a thread for it now? Seeing as though the Tier list has no stamina or Spin-Stealing combo ultilizing MF-M; why is this relevant?

I'm quite unaware if your just talking about Gravity or not, but if you are, shouldn't that only remain in the LTD section? To inform the users who have used MF-M on Gravity in the past. Last time I checked Gravity isn't used in Standard tournaments often.
Jan. 03, 2014  6:21 PM
 
I used Gravity to get the most even match possible, since it can rotate both to the right and to the left.

Check the F230 combos. They've got MSF-M. There was also discussion on this in the limited tier list discussion. Smile
Jan. 03, 2014  6:28 PM
 
Yes, but F230 combos are more balance really than Stamina. Plus you said it yourself, M variants are used on 230 combos to keep them from toppling over and having a good spin velocity at low RPM's, not necessarily because it aids them in Spin-Stealing.

If you can I'd prefer if you can do Gravity F230CF/GCF testing, because there not your average spin-stealer, and most likely benefit from MF-M.

Seeing that, why exactly did you include LTD in the OP if it was already discussed?

This is just my opinion; I didn't come to attack you or anything. Smile

Edit: East, I really thought of the same thing, because no stamina combos utilize MF-M, it's kind of common knowledge. Uncertain
Jan. 03, 2014  6:31 PM
 
Isn't all of this information obvious though? I mean, why would you want to add weight to the center of a combo that relies on being able to regain spin and balance upon contact with a beyblade of the opposite direction? That would only hinder it. I could have sworn people already knew this and just went along the unfortunately generally accepted idea of what works. I've never used MF-M it any other weighted junk on my spin stealers and everyone I have ever known hasn't either. I really think this community is wasting too much time on specifics of little parts rather than innovation and creating better combos. It's very disappointing to see a whole thread just for this.
Jan. 03, 2014  6:35 PM
 
Um... East, if you don't like the threads we make, then leave or you do testing. You haven't been here very long so you might not understand. Please don't make posts like that.
Jan. 03, 2014  6:37 PM
 
Kaizer and East: It was being discussed and this was a good place to put it. It's not like we're wasting much time that would be used for something else. This thread isn't harming anything so there's no point complaining about it.

Longer thing mostly for East: I was pro-MF-M just because I'd seen it helping in something I'd tried and then I confused a few things in terms of the physics of the topic and advocated it and there were things that indicated it might be correct that were probably due to other factors, so it's cropped up. This is probably largely my fault.
We all make mistakes, and sometimes they spread, and this thread is members of the community challenging that mistake and correcting it. I don't see how this would be at all upsetting to anyone who likes to challenge the status quo (I mean heck, I'd consider myself such a person, I'm one of the people who made the mistake and frankly I'm glad to see it caught and corrected), nor why the need for it should be so upsetting - people and groups of people do make mistakes, and nothing will change the fact those mistakes were made once they were made.

All getting adversarial at them about their mistakes does is make them less willing to admit them, and then we end up with massive arguments based not on the facts of the topic but people trying to make or save face. If we're all polite and understanding, the community will find and resolve errors much more quickly and efficiently, and a lot of trouble will be saved. I've been guilty of it plenty of times, though I would write some of it off as trying to actually draw attention to things that were being ignored (which definitely isn't the case here), but I like to think I've improved a bit. You should probably mull it over too, East, no offence.

Oh FWIW to everyone else who saw it before I did so, I edited my first post in the topic pretty heavily after going off and doing some more reading up on the physics of the topic.
Jan. 03, 2014  6:37 PM
 
Kaizer: There was no testing in thte Limited discussion. I made this and posted a link to it. Smile

230 Duo customs are used with it because it supposedly aids in Precession. That's the point I can to disprove. XD I don't think it helps.

The difference between those Balance customs and F230 customs is that Duo 230 MB is not supposed to spin-steal at all. F230 customs are built to spin steal, but they're classified as Balance because they can also do other things (like tornado stall against left-spin Defense), and they generally have an aggressive behavior about them.

East: If you think testing innovative combinations is the way to go, go check out my other customization threads!

Then you can decide if I'm wasting my time or not. Wink
Jan. 03, 2014  6:48 PM
 
(Jan. 03, 2014  6:37 PM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: Kaizer: There was no testing in thte Limited discussion. I made this and posted a link to it. Smile
Oh, well that's confusing.


(Jan. 03, 2014  6:37 PM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: 230 Duo customs are used with it because it supposedly aids in Precession. That's the point I can to disprove. XD I don't think it helps.

This is not common knowledge. Why didn't you just do 230 testing, because everyone knows most Flywheel stamina combos need MF-F or a regular face.

(Jan. 03, 2014  6:37 PM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: The difference between those Balance customs and F230 customs is that Duo 230 MB is not supposed to spin-steal at all. F230 customs are built to spin steal, but they're classified as Balance because they can also do other things (like tornado stall against left-spin Defense), and they generally have an aggressive behavior about them.

I can see where MSF-M can take away from the versatility, but I can see where MSF-M aids the true motive of the combo, but you're saying that the balance at low-spin velocities(>is that right?) with Spin-Stealers is unimportant?
Jan. 03, 2014  6:49 PM
 
(Jan. 03, 2014  6:35 PM)Galaxy Blade Wrote: Um... East, if you don't like the threads we make, then leave or you do testing. You haven't been here very long so you might not understand. Please don't make posts like that.

I can post anywhere I like for one. Secondly, I understand it completely and I understand that they don't need entire threads for it. It will only last for a month or two then dormant until someone necros it. That simple. Don't equate my time here or post frequency with my intelligence. I've been playing this gem since long before this site was created. I played back in the plastic gen as well so I know what I am saying. There isn't any testing needed for what I said.

And to th!nk, couldn't this time be used to create new things for limited or even better, both standard and limited formats such as entire combos or educating people as to why Zero G wheels may or may not be the best options for this new format and even Crystal wheel uses other than Dark Knight ? You're one of the more intelligent members here so I would think that you would see these things as more important than just a piece that has questionable theories around it on a combo(s) that gets skyrocketed by decent attackers anyway. Does that make sense?

Also, @TBD, I have seen your threads and I appreciate your work. I believe you're one of the more useful members instead of those who just see something and run with it. Keep that up.
Jan. 03, 2014  6:55 PM
 
Look, all I was trying to say was, why not stop saying "Make ne limited threads" if you're ain't gonna help. I find this very rude. Was you trying to say I'm not good at combos or knownledge? Cause in limited I've done loads of testing and helped with a CC list. So don't go saying rude stuff.

Lets try to not get off-topic, yes.
Jan. 03, 2014  6:55 PM
 
(Jan. 03, 2014  6:49 PM)East Wrote: And to th!nk, couldn't this time be used to create new things for limited or even better, both standard and limited formats such as entire combos or educating people as to why Zero G wheels may or may not be the best options for this new format and even Crystal wheel uses other than Dark Knight ? You're one of the more intelligent members here so I would think that you would see these things as more important than just a piece that has questionable theories around it on a combo(s) that gets skyrocketed by decent attackers anyway. Does that make sense?

What people choose to do with their time is their choice. This was something that a) needed to be addressed and b) judging by TBD's posts, something he was happy to spend his time on, so it's really no one's business but his that he chose to spend his time working on it.

There is all the time in the world (well, perhaps not, but still, a lot of time) to explore those topics, and I know for a fact post of the things you've mentioned are actually being worked on by myself (like, I'm working on literally all of those things, I'm just waiting on an MSF-H and for some aspects, a full set of ZGRB3 so I can test them properly), and others (actually including TBD himself I'm pretty sure) at the moment anyway.
This is a case where we can have our cake and eat it too (well, more accurately perhaps we keep the cake to look at (for some reason - it's an odd analogy) and have the baker or w/e whip up another for us to eat while we look at the first). As it is, Limited is actually coming along at a really impressive rate considering the level of activity the forum is at these days, so I wouldn't worry too much right now.

Also as for spin-stealers getting sent flying by attack types, not everyone uses attack (it's fairly rare, I'm sure you're familiar with the general reluctancy to use them at tournaments given self-KO risks and all that), and with weak launching, spin stealers are generally a safer option against other things (particularly aggressively launched defense customs and most balance customs) than stamina, now they have access to setups which let them outspin many regular stamina customs anyway. So, the type still has plenty of relevance. This really isn't the place to discuss it, so if you want to do so, feel free to shoot me a PM, I'd be happy to indulge you.

Anyway, I think the OP settles this, so we can probably move on now, at least until the costs/benefits of using MSF-M/-L on synchromes gets looked into.
Jan. 03, 2014  6:56 PM
 
Yes, but you can't post anywhere and bash someone's thread just because you don't see the need for it.

Whether than ignore the small details he created a new thread that informs the people who are uneducated by this small detail, even if it's not as significant as LTD testing it still serves a purpose, whether you agree with it or not.

Edit: Yeah let's try not to get off-topic, my bad.
Jan. 03, 2014  7:13 PM
 
(Jan. 03, 2014  6:55 PM)Galaxy Blade Wrote: Look, all I was trying to say was, why not stop saying "Make ne limited threads" if you're ain't gonna help. I find this very rude. Was you trying to say I'm not good at combos or knownledge? Cause in limited I've done loads of testing and helped with a CC list. So don't go saying rude stuff.

Lets try to not get off-topic, yes.

Limited doesn't need much help at all. Quite frankly, it never did. We just got some new parts and banned a few things but the combos that were prominent before limited and zero g are still prominent. That should be clear enough. Also, I never said don't make any limited threads so don't get what you interpret confused with my actual statements. No one else besides you has said I posted anything rude. Naturally, I could understand why would would think what I said was rude since you spend so much time in Limited and put in work here. I'm not discrediting you for that. I am saying that we spend too much time in small tidbits rather than gameplay changing techniques, combos, stadia control, etc..

I'll just PM th!nk.
Jan. 03, 2014  8:32 PM
 
Galaxy Blade has put in tons of time testing things in limited that have been extremely useful. I'd show him a little more respect if I were you.

Testing "small" things is just as crucial as testing "big" stuff, given its building on information that we already have. This "tidbit" happens to be a critical point that needs to be addressed. Putting something on the tier list that shouldn't be there is a problem. However small the single part is that's being twieked slightly, the effect, as these tests show, is pretty drastic.

Testing this stuff is essential. Anyone can see that different things work better than others on a large scale. The mark of an intelligent player is one who pays attention to the details, which is where the real customization goes on.
Jan. 03, 2014  8:49 PM
 
lol relax dudes

cool thread, don't doubt that MF-M is lame. It would be cool if you got other people in on this so we can put it to rest (if this turns out to be true for everyone else) and leave the notion of MF-M in the past.
East, I feel you but spreading out correct information is good, and important. Laying down a good foundation for future combos is good. Would you want a potentially super good combo using MF-M because people still think its useful? That would be hindering the combo and you wouldn't even think twice about it. Nothing wrong with looking back at things and asking "Is this still true?".

@TBD's "respect":
(Jan. 03, 2014  7:13 PM)East Wrote: Naturally, I could understand why would would think what I said was rude since you spend so much time in Limited and put in work here. I'm not discrediting you for that. I am saying that we spend too much time in small tidbits rather than gameplay changing techniques, combos, stadia control, etc..
p respectful, not bad, ok form 6/10
Jan. 03, 2014  11:20 PM
 
I'm not even going to say anything in response to TBD since Dan covered the most crucial part but I will say this; just because you focus on small tidbits does not make you any more or less intelligent than a Blader who doesn't. I dont focus on such minor detail and I do just fine. I would say I excel in what I do. Does that make me any less intelligent as a Blader who run over every detail when they still may very well lose in actual competition despite all their efforts? Even if they are winning, the answer is absolutely not. Period. Anyone can have knowledge of the game and still not be so hellbent on minor details.

My thoughts still remain the same. There should be more time being spent on more innovative ideas not metal face placement on combos that don't need them and never have. If this serves useful to some members, cool. I just don't see how this is moving us in any significant direction. It doesn't mean I am bashing anyone or anything. I'm just being as realistic as possible seeing how the topics like this tend to die in such short time and still leave people asking the same questions later on down the line. As Dan said, nothing wrong with seeing if something still stands true. This just seemed like one of the more obvious things that should have been common knowledge. I'm offering help not hostility.

And to TBD, I also don't discredit your work on this thread either. You took time to clear up some confusion, if any, and that is noteworthy when you consider that lack of notable activity these threads(or forums rather) usually get nowadays. You're doing your part and that's great. Not knocking you for that at all.
Jan. 05, 2014  9:58 AM
 
East, I understand your thought, but every bit matters in beys.
Beys are governed by physics, and even thr slightest change will change one's performace drastically. So even using a metal face can completely change a combo's basic idea.
Small tidbits are not to be ignored. Like early lung cancer. Like small cracks in tips.
As I have said, slight changes can change a lot. So , if we didn't start this thread, and never in the future, people may see a particular combo with MF-M(which would win withourt MF-M) losing most of the time to current or future top tiers. For that, they may not post their combos as they think it was not tier worthy. But what if they knew? Their combos would be on the tier list and everyone would have more choices to work with.
We are posting for the future. We are laying new paths for future bladers.
Two cents haha


And anyway, if you think you're that good, go and win tournaments and also make top tier threads. By that way you get real recognition.
Jan. 20, 2014  5:31 PM
 
Small differences between combos are EXTRTEMELY important with Stamina and Spin Steal customs. Spinning for a fraction of a second longer than your opponent will win the game for you, so it is crucial that every little detail be absolutely perfect to ensure you a win. While discovering game-changing combos is extremely important, you can't discover new, powerful, and unusual combos all the time. Slight improvements to individual customs are critical developments in their own right, and, arguably, the same general ideas have been re-used for years: Stamina (outer-focused weight with D-series tips), Defense (heavy combos with rubber tips), and Attack (fast-moving customs with flat tips and gaps, bumps, or other patterns allowing them to slam opponents around).
Jan. 21, 2014  3:54 AM
 
In the end most of those are completely eclipsed by launch strength anyway, aside from in near-identical spin stealer matchups where that sorts itself out and therefore the other factors do come into play.
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