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SA165 Discussion

Sep. 04, 2012  3:36 PM
 
(Sep. 04, 2012  3:31 PM)Ultra Wrote: For attack Flash/Phantom ____ S165MF should be tested.

Yeah. Phantom lacks the power but then at least it does *something* to lower beys. Still, never been a big fan of taller-tracked attack combos.

Also, if someone with plenty of experience could write up some general observations about SA165's behaviour and performance in both modes, it'd be cool. Obviously, wait till you have plenty of experience but yeah.
Sep. 04, 2012  4:29 PM
 
Wow, its pretty impressive that Zero-G has been introducing spin tracks of a new height. Its also good to see most of them fare well.
I myself liked SA165 a lot, since its picture was put up. It did seem to me as a modified version of AD145.
I am quite impressed by the results.

I also agree to what Ingulit said there. This is just an addition to the arsenal of sturdy, abominable tracks; and never a substitute/replacement.
Sep. 04, 2012  4:51 PM
 
Does anyone know if SA165 covers Big Bang or Cosmic's contact points?

If not, then Big Bang/Cosmic Kerbecs SA165RF/R2F could be a good attack combo to try, since both wheels have had some success on high tracks. I will get my SA165 sometime this week and can hopefully contribute.
Sep. 04, 2012  5:02 PM
 
(Sep. 04, 2012  4:51 PM)Whtdrgn Wrote: Does anyone know if SA165 covers Big Bang or Cosmic's contact points?

If not, then Big Bang/Cosmic Kerbecs SA165RF/R2F could be a good attack combo to try, since both wheels have had some success on high tracks. I will get my SA165 sometime this week and can hopefully contribute.

You're making what is becoming a rather prevalent mistake here - misinterpreting "better than expected" with "actually good". All the fuss about cosmic is merely because of the extremely low expectations - it was expected to be a crippled version of an already outclassed wheel, and as a result be laughable, so the fact it did anything was a surprise.

However, its abilities are nothing compared to those of (all Takara, of course) Flash, Blitz, Variares, as well as probably Phantom, Beat and Fang.

The fact anyone is bringing up big bang is probably as a result of cosmic's fame. Its use for force smash was always extremely mediocre back when Basalt was around, so it's nothing even remotely special at this point.

Furthermore, using a wheel that attacks with its underside on a fairly wide track that is a mere 2 millimetres taller than what is traditionally the most common height (145) - and that's not mentioning the ever growing number of tall track customs thanks to Zero-G's focus on that range.

Simply put: Cosmic isn't good, it's just better than everyone's extremely low expectations. Don't confuse hype with results.
Sep. 04, 2012  5:07 PM
 
(Sep. 04, 2012  3:10 PM)th!nk Wrote: It's hard to read how good a part is when it has a unique height lol, but thanks for making the much needed thread for it. We're not getting enough people doing the standard battery of tests for new parts lately, which makes it incredibly hard to decipher the game at the moment. Combos are nice, and I know I've previously advocated that combo testing is more relevant because we use combos, not parts, but parts testing is in a wretched state right now and it makes the game extremely hard to interpret if you don't have the parts yourself. We can't even direct people who want to know about parts testing to search for "[partname] discussion" because those threads still don't exist for a whole lot of new stuff, despite them being around for months.

Anyway, rant over, here's what I want to see for SA165:

If I don't list a tip, it means use whatever is most appropriate for the combo

Stamina:
SA165 with various tips - D, PD, WD, EWD, W2D, SWD, SD, MB, etc etc - we need to work out what works best somehow. I'm not entirely sure how to go about it, however. Solo spin testing only tells part of the picture and the best tip might be different against different height opponents (that's something barely ever mentioned that goes for all tracks, but the tip shape affects how well a blade does when hit from different angles). Bleh.

SA165 vs TH170/195/220
SA165 vs W145
SA165 vs 230D/MB
SA165 vs BD145EDS (as well as defensive comparison against an attacker that won't just 20-0 both.)
SA165 vs LTSC
SA165 vs 160 - PD Solo Spin Test comparison would be nice too.

SA165RDF vs E230/BD145CS&RDF - I want to see if SA165RDF can OS BD145CS and E230CS, as well as RDF just in case they improve the others a lot.


Always remembering to swap wheels half way through due to variation. If wheel swap makes a noticeable difference, you should consider using something else, even if it means using pre-4d parts.

Defense:
Comparison between SA165 (Both Modes) and E230, BD145.

Attack: I don't know, really, but it should be tested, mainly against E230 though some tests against other things if it works would be nice.

Ill get to these tests tonight. Everything but the attack tests I think i can get done. My finger is still pretty bad so its causing my attack types to be off. Anything else anyone want done?

Sep. 04, 2012  5:13 PM
 
Can ya test MF-H Duo Aquario SA156CS? and hi
Sep. 04, 2012  5:21 PM
 
(Sep. 04, 2012  5:13 PM)SoulEater57 Wrote: Can ya test MF-H Duo Aquario SA156CS? and hi

That is indeed on the very long list of stuff to test. th!nk's list is what is my priority right now.
Sep. 04, 2012  5:47 PM
 
(Sep. 04, 2012  5:02 PM)th!nk Wrote: You're making what is becoming a rather prevalent mistake here - misinterpreting "better than expected" with "actually good". All the fuss about cosmic is merely because of the extremely low expectations - it was expected to be a crippled version of an already outclassed wheel, and as a result be laughable, so the fact it did anything was a surprise.

However, its abilities are nothing compared to those of (all Takara, of course) Flash, Blitz, Variares, as well as probably Phantom, Beat and Fang.

The fact anyone is bringing up big bang is probably as a result of cosmic's fame. Its use for force smash was always extremely mediocre back when Basalt was around, so it's nothing even remotely special at this point.

I apologize if it sounded like I was suggesting that Big Bang or Cosmic was an amazing wheel, or better than Flash, Blitz, or Variares. My intent was simply to suggest a wheel that has had some attack success (reguardless how mediocre) on a higher (even though slightly) than average track. Obviously the best performing attack wheels should be tried first. I didn't want to throw out a suggestion that everyone has (or should have) already thought of.

th!nk Wrote:Furthermore, using a wheel that attacks with its underside on a fairly wide track that is a mere 2 millimetres taller than what is traditionally the most common height (145) - and that's not mentioning the ever growing number of tall track customs thanks to Zero-G's focus on that range.

This is why I asked if SA165 covered Big Bang or Cosmic's contact points. If it does, then obviously it would be pointless. If it isn't high enough to utilize their contact points, then again, it wouldn't be worth it.

th!nk Wrote:Simply put: Cosmic isn't good, it's just better than everyone's extremely low expectations. Don't confuse hype with results.

I completely agree with you, and I want you to know that I do understand this.

Back on topic....You said that you wanted defense tests with an attacker that won't 20-0 it. Would Beat be sufficient? If so, when I get my SA165 this week, I can do some defense comparisons with it, E230, and BD145.
Sep. 04, 2012  6:27 PM
 
(Sep. 04, 2012  5:47 PM)Whtdrgn Wrote: I apologize if it sounded like I was suggesting that Big Bang or Cosmic was an amazing wheel, or better than Flash, Blitz, or Variares. My intent was simply to suggest a wheel that has had some attack success (reguardless how mediocre) on a higher (even though slightly) than average track. Obviously the best performing attack wheels should be tried first. I didn't want to throw out a suggestion that everyone has (or should have) already thought of.

This is why I asked if SA165 covered Big Bang or Cosmic's contact points. If it does, then obviously it would be pointless. If it isn't high enough to utilize their contact points, then again, it wouldn't be worth it.

Perhaps I was a little overzealous, I've noted the error a lot, and you just happened to mention it while it was on my mind. Sorry if I was too harsh on you.

My post basically addressed the latter issue - that it almost certainly isn't going to be able to use it against anything of note, at least not as effectively as it would on a tall track (someone had some luck with W145 on it apparently), and I'd be very surprised if SA165 did enough to compensate for the issues it introduces from width (though I'm constantly surprised in other generations how little clearance force smash contact points need to work properly).

It would be interesting to see how it did, but another part of why I posted that was because if you can get SA165, you can get a better wheel than Cosmic. Still, I guess if there's a small chance it works really well on cosmic it's worth testing - but I think such a test would find a more comfortable home in the cosmic thread than here.

Quote:Back on topic....You said that you wanted defense tests with an attacker that won't 20-0 it. Would Beat be sufficient? If so, when I get my SA165 this week, I can do some defense comparisons with E230 and BD145.

Honestly I'm not actually sure what would/wouldn't be appropriate, seeing as SA165 and BD145, (and E230 which I didn't think to list there, as everything I've heard of it is basically "great defense, appalling stamina"), are all going to be using stamina tips.
It's perhaps an odd request, but it's important to know because BD145EDS is top-tier at least partially because it is defensively superior to the other listed setups while still having solid stamina. I don't really want to explain any more as doing so will either take a very lengthy explanation or be too easily misinterpreted.
Sep. 05, 2012  1:36 AM
 
Solo spin times are up. I started the attack tests but my finger was still getting in the way. Informally speaking MFH Dup Aquario SA165 Cs vs MF H Flash orion H145 R2F gets around 45%-55%. Ill try to have the attack tests done in a day or so.

From what I observed SD is the best stamina tip so far. All tips were brand new. The LAD of SA165 is quite amazing.
Sep. 05, 2012  1:45 AM
 
(Sep. 05, 2012  1:36 AM)Dark_Mousy Wrote: Solo spin times are up. I started the attack tests but my finger was still getting in the way. Informally speaking MFH Dup Aquario SA165 Cs vs MF H Flash orion H145 R2F gets around 45%-55%. Ill try to have the attack tests done in a day or so.

From what I observed SD is the best stamina tip so far. All tips were brand new. The LAD of SA165 is quite amazing.

that thing has amazing stamina? can the Duo Cancer SA156SD or what ever was four minute spin time take some hits? idk because of the tip
Sep. 05, 2012  1:48 AM
 
Have you tried D?
I'm also surprised PD didn't do that well compared to SD, given Ingulit's 160PD thing, and the fact it's only half a millimetre different, but eh.

Thanks for the tests Smile
Sep. 05, 2012  1:58 AM
 
(Sep. 05, 2012  1:48 AM)th!nk Wrote: Have you tried D?
I'm also surprised PD didn't do that well compared to SD, given Ingulit's 160PD thing, and the fact it's only half a millimetre different, but eh.

Thanks for the tests Smile

My D tip grew legs at a past tournament and walked off. Ill try to pick one up this week.
Sep. 05, 2012  3:34 AM
 
You got less than three minutes of solo spin time with 160PD? Haha, how worn is it? I'll do some solo spin stuff soon for comparison.
Sep. 05, 2012  4:00 AM
 
(Sep. 05, 2012  3:34 AM)Ingulit Wrote: You got less than three minutes of solo spin time with 160PD? Haha, how worn is it? I'll do some solo spin stuff soon for comparison.

Its not that worn. Ill redo it tomorrow.
Sep. 05, 2012  8:40 AM
 
Woah. SD won by a mile.
Sep. 06, 2012  5:55 AM
 
I suggest Xf because of heigth problems with attack mode SA160
i know this is away from everyone asking about its defence capabilities but attack mode needs a really short tip plz test when next possible
Sep. 06, 2012  3:43 PM
 
tested SA165WD against the substitute to ingulit's 160PD, 160D. the only 2 metal wheels and clear wheels i have duplicates of are hell, death, and horuseus, quetzalcoatl respectively, so that's why i had to use death quetzalcoatl for these tests. death overhangs the track which ingulit mentions to be one of the main reasons for using duo and why phantom does not work on his combo, and thus it was chosen over hell.

anyway, on to the tests:

Standard Procedure, alternating launch

Notes: brand new WD, slightly used D, SA165 in normal mode

Results:
Spoiler (Click to View)
overall: SA165WD 2 wins, 10%

i really would've done SA165D if i could, but seeing as this pairing has not been used previously by other testers, and more of the fact that i only have 1 D... (heh) i couldn't strictly compare the effect of the track alone, but rather compared one track + tip setup against another.

EDIT: going to avoid stamina tests from now on if i can... takes way too much time O.o
Sep. 06, 2012  5:18 PM
 
SD tests would have been useful but whatever.
Sep. 06, 2012  5:23 PM
 
(Sep. 06, 2012  5:18 PM)Ultra Wrote: SD tests would have been useful but whatever.

Is there something else you would like SD tested on? If so I can get around to it tonight.
Sep. 06, 2012  5:25 PM
 
To be honest, I never thought that there existed a difference between WD and SD (even if there was, WD was superior in my books).
However, its pretty interesting to see SD do SOOOO well there!

I think this is the height where SD does best?
Just how we discovered that D was supposed to be the best Stamina tip on >TH170 heights, I think SD does well in the range of 160s?

If there are more tests supporting this solo spin test, then I think we have a specific height range for the use of every prominent D tip family! LOL!

Thanks for the tests, DarkMousy!
Sep. 06, 2012  5:26 PM
 
(Sep. 06, 2012  5:23 PM)Dark_Mousy Wrote:
(Sep. 06, 2012  5:18 PM)Ultra Wrote: SD tests would have been useful but whatever.

Is there something else you would like SD tested on? If so I can get around to it tonight.

I mainly meant just because of the dominating spin times the track got on SD. The same tests from the OP but with SD instead of WD would be good. My dream test would duplicate combos with SD on one and WD on the other.
Sep. 06, 2012  5:47 PM
 
(Sep. 06, 2012  5:18 PM)Ultra Wrote: SD tests would have been useful but whatever.

sorry but i don't have SD either ><
Sep. 07, 2012  5:12 AM
 
is sd really that dominate in zero g I would like to see eds and ds tests using this track in stand alone spin tests
if you do battle tests it could prove eds to be any more amazing
*even
Sep. 07, 2012  5:29 AM
 
(Sep. 07, 2012  5:12 AM)HinTin Wrote: is sd really that dominate in zero g I would like to see eds and ds tests using this track in stand alone spin tests
if you do battle tests it could prove eds to be any more amazing
*even

Ill get to those this weekend. They should be up Saturday. Friday is completely booked. <_>
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