Potential of removing hS, aH, and rP?

(Nov. 13, 2018  5:29 PM)@ya.dama Wrote: i feel like the title of this thread should be changed because the discussions in here does NOT relate to the title, haha.

No, actually, I'd say it's still very much on topic.

Some people argue that the game is "balanced as TT intended" or similar for why hS, aH, and rP shouldn't be removed. And some people are talking about making an alternative format without the three. So it's still all talk regarding the possibilities and causes/effects and the like of removing any or all of the trio.

So I think everyone should be comfortable to continue such discussion. But I'll adjust the opening post to make that extra clear.
4 months later, the meta's still bad, with the exception of now we're seeing Balkesh B3 do well for all the wrong reasons (too burst resistant with atomic or bearing). The ChoZs are still getting outclassed by aH hS (rp)P. Well, maybe not ChoZ-S, that one's harder to get.

I don't think a ban will solve anything. I think we need a second Limited format for burst, one where aH hS (rp)P and B3 are just totally banned (maybe ChoZ-S too, maybe not). And I know people like waiting until a line completes before adding in additional limited formats, but for the sake of our currently awful meta, don't wait, make it soon.

There's a definite focus on Atomic Eternal and Bearing being the only quality stamina and defense tips. Maybe that's fine, or maybe we should consider banning all 3 of em in a format. That would maybe lead to Xt+ becoming unstoppable, so it's a slippery slope.

I'm not sure even with a new format this is a problem that can be solved. The meta just stinks.
(Mar. 11, 2019  1:57 PM)DeceasedCrab Wrote: 4 months later, the meta's still bad, with the exception of now we're seeing Balkesh B3 do well for all the wrong reasons (too burst resistant with atomic or bearing). The ChoZs are still getting outclassed by aH hS (rp)P. Well, maybe not ChoZ-S, that one's harder to get.

I don't think a ban will solve anything. I think we need a second Limited format for burst, one where aH hS (rp)P and B3 are just totally banned (maybe ChoZ-S too, maybe not). And I know people like waiting until a line completes before adding in additional limited formats, but for the sake of our currently awful meta, don't wait, make it soon.

There's a definite focus on Atomic Eternal and Bearing being the only quality stamina and defense tips. Maybe that's fine, or maybe we should consider banning all 3 of em in a format. That would maybe lead to Xt+ becoming unstoppable, so it's a slippery slope.

I'm not sure even with a new format this is a problem that can be solved. The meta just stinks.

I still feel like it's the Layers that are the problem. If Archer Hercules, Hell Salamander and the Phoenixes didn't exist, we'd be using Crash Ragnaruk and Geist Fafnir instead, both of which are much, MUCH easier to Burst, even on Xtend+, Eternal and Atomic.
(Mar. 11, 2019  2:12 PM)MonoDragon Wrote: I still feel like it's the Layers that are the problem. If Archer Hercules, Hell Salamander and the Phoenixes didn't exist, we'd be using Crash Ragnaruk and Geist Fafnir instead, both of which are much, MUCH easier to Burst, even on Xtend+, Eternal and Atomic.

You're probably right. I think it's kind of weird that 3 tips completely dominate non-attack tips, but it's not as glaring an issue as the layers. Those don't tend to burst, and some of them have few counters.
In Weiss Schwarz, whenever there's multiple cards in a set that would create overpowered combos, they do a "Pick 1 of X". So maybe for Burst Deck Format a rule could be established that a deck can only have 1 of aH, hS, rP/pP/dP and the other 2 layers must not include the others. And then reevaluate every 6 months or whatever.

Though with GT stuffs coming, maybe it's better to wait a bit more until the parts pool increases to see if the new stuff counters the current stuff.
when i was testing with kei last night the only bey that wasn't getting deleted by attack was pP, at best it was like a 60% WR for cho-z valk and achillies. I was gone for a while but nothing has really changed, wV is still a monster... there's just a much more annoying defense-stamina-lad hybrid bey that came out and that is pP.

But looking at this objectively yeah those 3 beys are stupidly op... it's just the way the meta is going... big fat bulky hybrid beys, just like MFB standard. This is why we have the new "classic" format so we can have a meta that most wbo members prefer, and that being an attack focused one.
That's a cool idea. Thank you for sharing it. It seems like a good solution.
(Mar. 12, 2019  1:38 AM)1234beyblade Wrote: when i was testing with kei last night the only bey that wasn't getting deleted by attack was pP, at best it was like a 60% WR for cho-z valk and achillies.  I was gone for a while but nothing has really changed, wV is still a monster... there's just a much more annoying defense-stamina-lad hybrid bey that came out and that is pP.

But looking at this objectively yeah those 3 beys are stupidly op... it's just the way the meta is going... big fat bulky hybrid beys, just like MFB standard.  This is why we have the new "classic" format so we can have a meta that most wbo members prefer, and that being an attack focused one.

I agree! 


P.S. Congratulations on being the best Blader on the WBO!
(Mar. 12, 2019  1:39 AM)DeceasedCrab Wrote: That's a cool idea. Thank you for sharing it. It seems like a good solution.

^
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This guy likes spreading misinformation

(Mar. 12, 2019  1:39 AM)DeceasedCrab Wrote: That's a cool idea. Thank you for sharing it. It seems like a good solution.

🙉🙉🙉

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i think the game would definitely be more fun if those 3 were removed, the meta has been stale for too long
(Mar. 13, 2019  6:44 AM)gxpt2000 Wrote: i think the game would definitely be more fun if those 3 were removed, the meta has been stale for too long

Well I do own Salmander and to tell you this strange thing happened the last torunament I was at. I used Salmander 4glaive destroy at the semi finals in 5 bladed mode and it looked like it was going to end but nope, it stole spin using destroy's free spinning ring.(it still got a sleepout finish) so yeah, thing is Salmander on bearing can be good but is very weak. I'm not sure how it does against cho-z awakening layers. Atomic has a bit more burst resistance but still bursts. Chozetsu Spriggan outclassed most of these beys now because of burst stoppers and it's left rotation, and probably bulky size. Attack combos in burst is not a good recommendation for the fact that some beys can't handle the recoil so it's like asking for a burst. Beys like chozetsu valkyrie fixes that. Attack beys are not used alot for that reason cause I don't see alot of people have dash drivers. Only problem is is restricting those beys would only lessen the amount of spin equalization combos. Since Salmander has at least near to zero recoil in defense mode. And with bearing if you're not in the center you lose stamina fast. Atomic fixes that issue. 

Hell Salmander has good stamina but if it didn't have something like atomic or bearing it would become outclassed because it's not good at attack. It's blades are too smooth.
(Mar. 14, 2019  1:45 AM)DreamBlade Wrote:
(Mar. 13, 2019  6:44 AM)gxpt2000 Wrote: i think the game would definitely be more fun if those 3 were removed, the meta has been stale for too long

Well I do own Salmander and to tell you this strange thing happened the last torunament I was at. I used Salmander 4glaive destroy at the semi finals in 5 bladed mode and it looked like it was going to end but nope, it stole spin using destroy's free spinning ring.(it still got a sleepout finish) so yeah, thing is Salmander on bearing can be good but is very weak. I'm not sure how it does against cho-z awakening layers. Atomic has a bit more burst resistance but still bursts. Chozetsu Spriggan outclassed most of these beys now because of burst stoppers and it's left rotation, and probably bulky size. Attack combos in burst is not a good recommendation for the fact that some beys can't handle the recoil so it's like asking for a burst. Beys like chozetsu valkyrie fixes that. Attack beys are not used alot for that reason cause I don't see alot of people have dash drivers. Only problem is is restricting those beys would only lessen the amount of spin equalization combos. Since Salmander has at least near to zero recoil in defense mode. And with bearing if you're not in the center you lose stamina fast. Atomic fixes that issue. 

Hell Salmander has good stamina but if it didn't have something like atomic or bearing it would become outclassed because it's not good at attack. It's blades are too smooth.

i also happen to own salamander. 4glaive destroy isnt good compared to what the best salamander combos are. destroy combos will lose to Xt+ and Et.

hell salamander needs to be hit because right has trouble dealing with it, and hell salamander can beat any other left bey either through defense(mostly) or attack.
(Mar. 15, 2019  1:38 AM)gxpt2000 Wrote:
(Mar. 14, 2019  1:45 AM)DreamBlade Wrote: Well I do own Salmander and to tell you this strange thing happened the last torunament I was at. I used Salmander 4glaive destroy at the semi finals in 5 bladed mode and it looked like it was going to end but nope, it stole spin using destroy's free spinning ring.(it still got a sleepout finish) so yeah, thing is Salmander on bearing can be good but is very weak. I'm not sure how it does against cho-z awakening layers. Atomic has a bit more burst resistance but still bursts. Chozetsu Spriggan outclassed most of these beys now because of burst stoppers and it's left rotation, and probably bulky size. Attack combos in burst is not a good recommendation for the fact that some beys can't handle the recoil so it's like asking for a burst. Beys like chozetsu valkyrie fixes that. Attack beys are not used alot for that reason cause I don't see alot of people have dash drivers. Only problem is is restricting those beys would only lessen the amount of spin equalization combos. Since Salmander has at least near to zero recoil in defense mode. And with bearing if you're not in the center you lose stamina fast. Atomic fixes that issue. 

Hell Salmander has good stamina but if it didn't have something like atomic or bearing it would become outclassed because it's not good at attack. It's blades are too smooth.

i also happen to own salamander. 4glaive destroy isnt good compared to what the best salamander combos are. destroy combos will lose to Xt+ and Et.

hell salamander needs to be hit because right has trouble dealing with it, and hell salamander can beat any other left bey either through defense(mostly) or attack.

That is true. But i thing i found a counter and it had to do with emperor forneus.
Here's hoping that the new Gachi beys find a way to shatter the current meta without stagnating it again.
(Mar. 15, 2019  3:43 AM)DeceasedCrab Wrote: Here's hoping that the new Gachi beys find a way to shatter the current meta without stagnating it again.
 I could say it could Because the teeth vary. Like how there is now 2 to 4 teeth in a bey now. Altough one concern is that people can now use strong teeth with extremely powerful attack layers with a defense or stamina peformance tip. So it can vary.

I think one example could be Slash Dragon with atomic or bearing.