2 limited formats assumes a ton of actual interest in legacy burst

a few one offs tournaments of single and dual might be fun, but is there really sustained demand for this?

maybe there is. 

but i couldn’t see organizers running 3 formats in your average tournament day.  two formats in one day is long enough. so one of the 3 potential burst formats would end up being cut.

—-

the limited burst format that interests me would include single/dual/god/turbo only with all previous bans reenstated

All different formats do not need to be run on the same day.  If there were more events then there would be more opportunity to run different formats.

If demand is lacking the format will die and so be it.

but that’s setting up a potential scenario where the standard format doesn’t get run
do we really want that?

i understand it's the organizers choice and players can theoretically “vote with their feet”
however the reality is tournaments and attention are finite resources and this is a small community 

assuming the number of tournaments remains constant, 
the more types of formats we have, the fewer instances of each format actually gets run

potentially including standard format

——

switching subjects to bans,

the more i think about the london tournament the more ridiculous it seems to me

if we are a real organization and the committee is an actual governing body,
it’s completely improper for a tournament with a custom rule set to be included within WBO records

especially when the results are an actual manipulation

12 and 13 are in winning combos in November 2018... again, ridiculous.

bey hippies may find this novel and cool, but manipulation is not in the spirt of competition 
all a ban does is temporarily increase chaos until a new natural hierarchy is formed

there is no perfect set of rules that will please everyone
but let’s have full and fair competitive events with the same rules

if you want to force people to play your dream game as a dictator
it shouldn’t be under the auspices of a WBO tournament

Takara Tomy and especially Hasbro do not care for competition.

All they do is make a cool design with a cool gimmick, hype it up in the anime and in their promotion videos and leave it on store shelves for kids and toy collectors to buy, knowing that they'll be sold because of that.

If they really cared for competition, they wouldn't have to rig their promotion videos in favor of their new releases to create a sense of "this works and is balanced in the game!"

Biggest example: the Deathscyther Layers. They were supposed to be Upper Attack Layers, they ended up making top-tier Defense and Stamina Layers due to a lack of foresight in the round design

Takara Tomy and especially Hasbro do not care for competition.

All they do is make a cool design with a cool gimmick, hype it up in the anime and in their promotion videos and leave it on store shelves for kids and toy collectors to buy, knowing that they'll be sold because of that.

If they really cared for competition, they wouldn't have to rig their promotion videos in favor of their new releases to create a sense of "this works and is balanced in the game!"

Biggest example: the Deathscyther Layers. They were supposed to be Upper Attack Layers, they ended up making top-tier Defense and Stamina Layers due to a lack of foresight in the round design

Sometimes, they aim to make it OP. They assume that when people battle each other, one person gets, for example, a D2 [TT], they try out some combos and get the combo idea of D2.G.O. Then their Rival is like, "Hey! Cool bey! It's really strong! I'm getting it!" And so, sales boost. People who battle at home (like me), just have the aim to be as OP as possible. No bans, no Mold restrictions or anything. Only winning and fun. That's what TT likes to target. Therefore, you can say, they don't care for the META. 

And one thing to add, Hasbro is not to be blamed for this because TT makes the beys. Hasbro just releases the same design with their MODS.

Takara Tomy and especially Hasbro do not care for competition.

All they do is make a cool design with a cool gimmick, hype it up in the anime and in their promotion videos and leave it on store shelves for kids and toy collectors to buy, knowing that they'll be sold because of that.

If they really cared for competition, they wouldn't have to rig their promotion videos in favor of their new releases to create a sense of "this works and is balanced in the game!"

Biggest example: the Deathscyther Layers. They were supposed to be Upper Attack Layers, they ended up making top-tier Defense and Stamina Layers due to a lack of foresight in the round design

Sometimes, they aim to make it OP. They assume that when people battle each other, one person gets, for example, a D2 [TT], they try out some combos and get the combo idea of D2.G.O. Then their Rival is like, "Hey! Cool bey! It's really strong! I'm getting it!" And so, sales boost. People who battle at home (like me), just have the aim to be as OP as possible. No bans, no Mold restrictions or anything. Only winning and fun. That's what TT likes to target. Therefore, you can say, they don't care for the META. 

And one thing to add, Hasbro is not to be blamed for this because TT makes the beys. Hasbro just releases the same design with their MODS.

Hasbro may actually care about a balanced meta, because every OP part was modified, except for Garuda and Spryzen Requiem.

---

oh no i just woke up and two years have passed where am i what happened

but that’s setting up a potential scenario where the standard format doesn’t get run
do we really want that?

i understand it's the organizers choice and players can theoretically “vote with their feet”
however the reality is tournaments and attention are finite resources and this is a small community 

assuming the number of tournaments remains constant, 
the more types of formats we have, the fewer instances of each format actually gets run

potentially including standard format

This is literally what happens with MFB, and it doesn't stop people from running Standard. I think your concern here is definitely a valid one, but should be a non-issue if the formats are planned and executed properly.

switching subjects to bans,

the more i think about the london tournament the more ridiculous it seems to me

if we are a real organization and the committee is an actual governing body,
it’s completely improper for a tournament with a custom rule set to be included within WBO records

especially when the results are an actual manipulation

12 and 13 are in winning combos in November 2018... again, ridiculous.

bey hippies may find this novel and cool, but manipulation is not in the spirt of competition 
all a ban does is temporarily increase chaos until a new natural hierarchy is formed

there is no perfect set of rules that will please everyone
but let’s have full and fair competitive events with the same rules

if you want to force people to play your dream game as a dictator
it shouldn’t be under the auspices of a WBO tournament

Nobody was forced, everyone was asked and agreed to it. If even one person didn't want to go ahead with it, we were to run our standard rule set instead. I don't appreciate the dictator remark, haha.

The event was unranked, like all experimental events are. This may go on WBO records, but nothing official.

Results were not manipulated, unless you consider a state of disarray as "manipulation of results". The same thing happens after every banner end up rolling out, there isn't anything different here, and I already explained how combinations balanced out throughout the event as everyone figured out what was best to use. I fail to see why this is so hard to understand two weeks later...?

---

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Takara Tomy and especially Hasbro do not care for competition.

All they do is make a cool design with a cool gimmick, hype it up in the anime and in their promotion videos and leave it on store shelves for kids and toy collectors to buy, knowing that they'll be sold because of that.

If they really cared for competition, they wouldn't have to rig their promotion videos in favor of their new releases to create a sense of "this works and is balanced in the game!"

Biggest example: the Deathscyther Layers. They were supposed to be Upper Attack Layers, they ended up making top-tier Defense and Stamina Layers due to a lack of foresight in the round design

then why does TT bearing have a weak spring?

why does mG have a single weak tooth

there are plenty examples of TT trying to support competetive play

i’m not saying TT is a bunch of impartial umpires
they need to sell boxes

but without a doubt they have demonstrated a desire for a reasonably balanced competitive game

---

but that’s setting up a potential scenario where the standard format doesn’t get run
do we really want that?

i understand it's the organizers choice and players can theoretically “vote with their feet”
however the reality is tournaments and attention are finite resources and this is a small community 

assuming the number of tournaments remains constant, 
the more types of formats we have, the fewer instances of each format actually gets run

potentially including standard format

This is literally what happens with MFB, and it doesn't stop people from running Standard. I think your concern here is definitely a valid one, but should be a non-issue if the formats are planned and executed properly.

switching subjects to bans,

the more i think about the london tournament the more ridiculous it seems to me

if we are a real organization and the committee is an actual governing body,
it’s completely improper for a tournament with a custom rule set to be included within WBO records

especially when the results are an actual manipulation

12 and 13 are in winning combos in November 2018... again, ridiculous.

bey hippies may find this novel and cool, but manipulation is not in the spirt of competition 
all a ban does is temporarily increase chaos until a new natural hierarchy is formed

there is no perfect set of rules that will please everyone
but let’s have full and fair competitive events with the same rules

if you want to force people to play your dream game as a dictator
it shouldn’t be under the auspices of a WBO tournament

Nobody was forced, everyone was asked and agreed to it. If even one person didn't want to go ahead with it, we were to run our standard rule set instead. I don't appreciate the dictator remark, haha.

The event was unranked, like all experimental events are. This may go on WBO records, but nothing official.

Results were not manipulated, unless you consider a state of disarray as "manipulation of results". The same thing happens after every banner end up rolling out, there isn't anything different here, and I already explained how combinations balanced out throughout the event as everyone figured out what was best to use. I fail to see why this is so hard to understand two weeks later...?

if there are no other tournaments, players are forced by defacto

but fair point on the unranked status, and i understand the need for experimentation in principle

with those points in mind i guess this makes a bit more sense to me

but still those winning combos hurt my brain

Takara Tomy and especially Hasbro do not care for competition.

All they do is make a cool design with a cool gimmick, hype it up in the anime and in their promotion videos and leave it on store shelves for kids and toy collectors to buy, knowing that they'll be sold because of that.

If they really cared for competition, they wouldn't have to rig their promotion videos in favor of their new releases to create a sense of "this works and is balanced in the game!"

Biggest example: the Deathscyther Layers. They were supposed to be Upper Attack Layers, they ended up making top-tier Defense and Stamina Layers due to a lack of foresight in the round design

then why does TT bearing have a weak spring?

why does mG have a single weak tooth

there are plenty examples of TT trying to support competetive play

i’m not saying TT is a bunch of impartial umpires
they need to sell boxes

but without a doubt they have demonstrated a desire for a reasonably balanced competitive game

If that’s the case then they absolutely suck at their job and we have to pick up the slack and keep things interesting for us

i feel like the title of this thread should be changed because the discussions in here does NOT relate to the title, haha.

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singapore beyblader, and official GM(Game Master/Judge) for WBBA/B4 events.
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(snowkeepfallin_) and (beyblader101_) on insta, he/him.

Please, please ban them. Its pretty much the only thing keeping a lot of attack types and god layer beys from being viable. It would really help the meta and make it so you couldn't just spam aH.10.Et or hS.0B.Br and sweep a tournament.

you couldn’t spam your way through a tournament with aH.10.Et or hS.0B.Br today

Xt+ is out now

do you want to ban that as well? lol.

this is why banning strong parts is problematic 

—-

picking and choosing winners in a competitive system needs constant guessing and second guessing
no matter what is banned there will always be a small number of actually usable parts

Sorry, I keep forgetting about Xt+. But still, I heard that someone did sweep a tournament with hS Br, and even still, having those three beys around definitely makes it hard to use attack beys and even other defence and stamina types. There may still only be a small amount of parts, but we will probably still be seeing more attack beys being used.

Everything is fine, just remove revive Pheonix because he’s kinda overpowered when using a great combo, and having that second layer

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Champion! Javari Carr.

Everything is fine, just remove revive Pheonix because he’s kinda overpowered when using a great combo, and having that second layer

I'd argue that Revive Phoenix is the lesser of the 3 Power Layers being discussed here. All it takes to defeat it is to consistently remove its armor early enough, as an armorless rP is incredibly weak due to its light weight and can be easily KO'd or outspun from there. It might just be my specific mold of rP speaking here, but that's not altogether a difficult task to do.

My issue lies much more with Archer Hercules and Hell Salamander, both which have massive Stamina and Defense potential without any really significant weaknesses.

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Cincinnati-based Organizer, and owner of every single currently released TT Burst bey part in at least one color. Hard to think of anything I don't have from MFB either...

But yeah, you totally could spam through a tournament with hS.0B/0G.Ds/At and aH.10.Et and either Sr or rP.

you just listed 11 parts

please describe your idea of optimum diversity in the meta

A meta that has more than 4 viable layers that aren't just used as a niche counterpick.
A meta where attack type can be used normally instead of only as a counter to Bearing.

Realistically, Bearing is the driver that judges meta health. If Bearing is completely viable and used, it goes to show how unviable attack is in the current meta because Bearing isn't going to be used competitively in a world where attack types will easily beat it. If Bearing didn't exist, no one would even remotely attempt to use attack types right now because 9/10 times they'd lose to the meta layers.

---

Also, I'm going to have to agree with RedPanda on the results of that tournament being horribly inaccurate to what that format should look like. There is no universe where 12 and 13 are used competitively nor any universe where god layers (besides Sr, mG, and hasbro F3 on hasbro Br) are used competitively. Similarly, I can't see a world where people are using Yielding.

"Chaos" of being unfamiliar to the format isn't even an excuse. These results are clearly not valid and I guarantee more testing would create more effective results. Still, the argument that hS, aH, and rP lowering diversity by being broken is still valid.

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Give us Assault' re-release, Iron', and Charge'. Give a non-limited re-release of Cho-Z Achilles.
Legend Spriggan on tall attack drivers for Burst Limited is fun.
Against layer powercreep in Burst Limited.

In all honesty I think new responses to Archer Hercules are coming/have just arrived. Less so for Hell Salamander but from my personal testing of Dead Hades.0B.Z' and Dead Hades.0.Z' it actually wins very consistently against Archer Hercules. I don't record but one such test for me of Dead Hades.0B.Z' vs Archer Hercules.10.Et resulted in 8 wins for Dead Hades and only 2 for Archer Hercules and I encourage others to do similar tests to lmk if it's just some odd fluke on my end. Seven of those eight wins were by spin finish and one was by over finish. I think if we're patient with new releases more responses will arise as well. It's possible the new Cho-Z Spriggan will be a very solid response to Hell Salamander combinations, the new Cho-Z Valkyrie could be a decent play against Archer Hercules, and looking even further into the future the new Achilles may have a decent match-up against Hercules as well. Personally I have hope for all of these posed issues to improve without you fine folks having to make a limited format.

(Also first post, for the past couple years I didn't wanna make an account and just watched from the shadows hehe yay me)

It's possible the new Cho-Z Spriggan will be a very solid response to Hell Salamander combinations

Cho-Z Spriggan could also make meta a worse one by having the OP burst stopper gimmick and the dual spin ability(From what I have seen,new Cho-Z Valkyrie burst even with the burst stopper because it has a weak one).It does also mean that it can switch spins to attack the hell out of the opponent(Mack the burst said this).
P.S: My suggestion is to nerf the 3 layers (and maybe Cho-Z Spriggan) like someone said(sorry for not knowing who came up with this idea first).

---

2 Versus 2 format should be a thing. Change my mind.

It's possible the new Cho-Z Spriggan will be a very solid response to Hell Salamander combinations

Cho-Z Spriggan could also make meta a worse one by having the OP burst stopper gimmick and the dual spin ability(From what I have seen,new Cho-Z Valkyrie burst even with the burst stopper because it has a weak one).It does also mean that it can switch spins to attack the hell out of the opponent(Mack the burst said this).
P.S: My suggestion is to nerf the 3 layers (and maybe Cho-Z Spriggan) like someone said(sorry for not knowing who came up with this idea first).

that’s a very bold statement to make 
considering they are based on your youtube fueled assumptions

cS and cV (are those the abbreviations?) look like they *might* be strong attack options 
or at least maybe strong options that are not aH or hS

isn’t that what people are clamoring for in this thread?
yet still you complain and ask for bans/nerfs, smh...

it’s early, 
but i'd bet cS and cV are simply part of TT's continuing plan for a balanced and deep competitive game

that’s my “bold” statement
based on my youtube fueled assumptions...lol

Cho-Z Spriggan could also make meta a worse one by having the OP burst stopper gimmick and the dual spin ability(From what I have seen,new Cho-Z Valkyrie burst even with the burst stopper because it has a weak one).It does also mean that it can switch spins to attack the hell out of the opponent(Mack the burst said this).
P.S: My suggestion is to nerf the 3 layers (and maybe Cho-Z Spriggan) like someone said(sorry for not knowing who came up with this idea first).

that’s a very bold statement to make 
considering they are based on your youtube fueled assumptions

cS and cV (are those the abbreviations?) look like they *might* be strong attack options 
or at least maybe strong options that are not aH or hS

isn’t that what people are clamoring for in this thread?
yet still you complain and ask for bans/nerfs, smh...

it’s early, 
but i'd bet cS and cV are simply part of TT's continuing plan for a balanced and deep competitive game

that’s my “bold” statement
based on my youtube fueled assumptions...lol

I used the word 'COULD'.And besides,I'm happy that someone watches youtube as much or seriously as me.

---

Cho-Z Spriggan could also make meta a worse one by having the OP burst stopper gimmick and the dual spin ability(From what I have seen,new Cho-Z Valkyrie burst even with the burst stopper because it has a weak one).It does also mean that it can switch spins to attack the hell out of the opponent(Mack the burst said this).
P.S: My suggestion is to nerf the 3 layers (and maybe Cho-Z Spriggan) like someone said(sorry for not knowing who came up with this idea first).

cS and cV (are those the abbreviations?) look like they *might* be strong attack options 
or at least maybe strong options that are not aH or hS

Are you saying they *might* be meta?

---

2 Versus 2 format should be a thing. Change my mind.

don’t squirm.

you were talking about ban potential of a bey you don’t have

bold statement, period.

Takara Tomy does not have a "grand plan" for a balanced metagame. And if they do, they absolutely suck at it

Zero-G is plagued with super heavy Stamina Types, making Attack Types non-existent

The introduction of the Burst System was supposed to make Attack Types super relevant by giving a new way to win which Attack Types can make the best use of. We were still using Stamina Combos (Deathscyther, Neptune, Wyvern)

Dual Layer Burst was supposed to be the big upgrade that would overhaul the meta. We were still using Single Layer Stamina combos long after the Layers went out of production

Early God Layer Burst was also supposed to be the big upgrade that would overhaul the meta. We were STILL using Single Layer Stamina combos until the release of Legend Spriggan, which had to be good due to the hype surrounding it (see Zillion Zeus for an example of what happens when something is hyped but doesn't perform well, it was stuck crowding store shelves for months)

Late God had Spriggan Requiem which was also very good... as a Stamina Type that completely made Attack Types obsolete (again)

The only reason Cho-Z overhauled the meta so quickly was because of the absurd weight difference. But again, Heavy Stamina Types rule the metagame with Attack Types becoming insignificant. Again. Dash(') Driver were introduced and only in Attack Type Drivers which would make Attack Types better, but we're still in a Stamina Dominant meta.

Do a trial ban on Hell Salamander, Archer Hercules and Revive Phoenix and see how the meta stabilizes. Will it be worse? Will it be better? Only one way to find out.

don’t squirm.

you were talking about ban potential of a bey you don’t have

bold statement, period.

May I ask if you have cS, and if you are able to prove the contradictory of my point?

---

2 Versus 2 format should be a thing. Change my mind.

Takara Tomy does not have a "grand plan" for a balanced metagame. And if they do, they absolutely suck at it

Zero-G is plagued with super heavy Stamina Types, making Attack Types non-existent

The introduction of the Burst System was supposed to make Attack Types super relevant by giving a new way to win which Attack Types can make the best use of. We were still using Stamina Combos (Deathscyther, Neptune, Wyvern)

Dual Layer Burst was supposed to be the big upgrade that would overhaul the meta. We were still using Single Layer Stamina combos long after the Layers went out of production

Early God Layer Burst was also supposed to be the big upgrade that would overhaul the meta. We were STILL using Single Layer Stamina combos until the release of Legend Spriggan, which had to be good due to the hype surrounding it (see Zillion Zeus for an example of what happens when something is hyped but doesn't perform well, it was stuck crowding store shelves for months)

Late God had Spriggan Requiem which was also very good... as a Stamina Type that completely made Attack Types obsolete (again)

The only reason Cho-Z overhauled the meta so quickly was because of the absurd weight difference. But again, Heavy Stamina Types rule the metagame with Attack Types becoming insignificant. Again. Dash(') Driver were introduced and only in Attack Type Drivers which would make Attack Types better, but we're still in a Stamina Dominant meta.

Do a trial ban on Hell Salamander, Archer Hercules and Revive Phoenix and see how the meta stabilizes. Will it be worse? Will it be better? Only one way to find out.

that’s a nice emotional diatribe 

but you could not respond to my counterpoints on TT bearing and TT mG

that’s a nice emotional diatribe 

but you could not respond to my counterpoints on TT bearing and TT mG

Others already have.
Bearing should not be competitive in the Burst format with its weak spring (see Iron), but it is because that’s how Stamina dominant the meta is. The only way to beat a Stamina Type is with another, better Stamina Type. That is not a healthy meta

Maximum Garuda was supposed to be like Bearing, easy to Burst but with good Stamina, but it was so badly designed that it made Legend Spriggan, the Attack Type that overhauled the meta and made it healthy, near obsolete. The meta would have gotten a massive reprieve when we banned it but it was too little too late by that time

don’t squirm.

you were talking about ban potential of a bey you don’t have

bold statement, period.

May I ask if you have cS, and if you are able to prove the contradictory of my point?

to be frank
that’s an irrelevant question 
and further it proves my point

you don’t have the bey
you are mentioning ban potential based on watching youtubes

that’s the only point i’m making 

i am not arguing for or against banning of a bey i have never used or even seen used in a WBO tournment.

---

that’s a nice emotional diatribe 

but you could not respond to my counterpoints on TT bearing and TT mG

Others already have.
Bearing should not be competitive in the Burst format with its weak spring (see Iron), but it is because that’s how Stamina dominant the meta is. The only way to beat a Stamina Type is with another, better Stamina Type. That is not a healthy meta

Maximum Garuda was supposed to be like Bearing, easy to Burst but with good Stamina, but it was so badly designed that it made Legend Spriggan, the Attack Type that overhauled the meta and made it healthy, near obsolete. The meta would have gotten a massive reprieve when we banned it but it was too little too late by that time

same spin attack type smokes bearing on average

[quote pid='1478804' dateline='1542725149']
Others already have.
Bearing should not be competitive in the Burst format with its weak spring (see Iron), but it is because that’s how Stamina dominant the meta is. The only way to beat a Stamina Type is with another, better Stamina Type. That is not a healthy meta

Maximum Garuda was supposed to be like Bearing, easy to Burst but with good Stamina, but it was so badly designed that it made Legend Spriggan, the Attack Type that overhauled the meta and made it healthy, near obsolete. The meta would have gotten a massive reprieve when we banned it but it was too little too late by that time

same spin attack type smokes bearing on average
[/quote]

Then why is it being used so much in the first place if it’s that easy to beat? Attack Types can beat only one specific combination in this meta, how can you call that healthy?

Why are you so resistant to a short experiment to figure out how the meta would change without Hell Salamander, Archer Hercules and Revive Phoenix? We can’t tell how the meta will change with only one tournament.

---

We don't know how the meta will change without Archer Hercules, Hell Salamander and Revive Phoenix. We hypothesis that it will be better since it should make Attack Types more common. The only way to figure it out is through trial bans for like 5 tournaments. If it turns out the meta turns worse, then I'll say you're right. JUST LET US DO THIS EXPERIMENT TO FIND OUT

a trial ban of anything before cS and cV are understood is asking for unintended consequences

i thought you were pro multi-limited, rather than pro ban-fest?

anyways, we have huge new releases to be processed now, the meta game is evolving before our eyes yet again.

a trial ban of anything before cS and cS are understood is asking for unintended consequences

i thought you were pro multi-limited, rather than pro ban-fest?

anyways, we have huge new releases to be processed now, the meta game is evolving before our eyes yet again.

Pro-multi Limited because the meta is that bad right now