Basically FACB's shaft+Dranzer S Casings in WB2's base with wide defense and upper dragoon makes for a very versatile attack/stamina combo - it can attack effectively and also steal spin decently. That and I guess now the Spin Stealing combo with the base are the only reasons to own a driger f, overall.

Not much point using Upper Dragoon unless your combo is moving fast enough or whatever to KO stuff with it, as a defense/spin stealing/stamina AR it's pretty outclassed.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Thanks th!nk, I'm assuming that only applies to opposite spin?
And in the custom you just mentioned there you said you'd use dranzer s casings, whereas above you said, "To correct myself, the two casings are identical in height and internal design, but Driger F's helps prevent the unlikely occurrence of the bases springs popping out, so they're a better choice. "
Is the choice of Dranzer S casings to allow the freely spinning shaft?

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I'm sorry for bombarding you with questions, but I've just got one more, if you'd be kind enough to oblige.

When is it preferable to use Customize Grip Base rather than Cusotmize Bearing Base? (other than for non-wolborg 2 smash attackers)

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Dranzer S's casings can be used in other bases, Driger F's can't because of the structure that helps prevent the springs flying out. Also the opening in driger F's, on looking at it, is elongated in one direction, like BK's SG, though this doesn't really make a big difference to anything. Both of them allow the shaft to spin freely, the only thing that prevents that is Driger F's base's gimmick at high RPMs.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Dranzer S's casings can be used in other bases, Driger F's can't because of the structure that helps prevent the springs flying out.

In hindsight, that's such an obvious answer, thanks man.

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Have been playing around with FACB tonight, in light of what shinobuXD dug up. I'm only doing handspins because my family are asleep but as these are opposite spin battles where it comes down to stamina/lad etc it doesn't make a big difference.
Basically it seems like a regular albeit very aggressive zombie base/SG - and like most zombie parts, it's probably more useful in general in left spin as right spin opponents are more common. Regular zombies can generally OS defensive zombies if used in opposite spin, too, though this does have comparatively good LAD.

Sadly, the thing I was most hopeful about - using it with the spin stealing upper attacker in the hopes of OSing Circle Survivor combos, didn't work out, it gets force smashed too much. On further attempts against right spin defensive zombies, the AR just isn't good enough - too much recoil, too little spin steal, and also interferes with LAD as it can touch the stadium floor, so AR choice seems to be very important.
Also for whatever reason it didn't work as well using dranzer S's casings - which really shouldn't make a difference, though, but whatever.

Using Wide Survivor and Twin Horn I was able to OS my circle survivor combo, even using my brand new mold 1 wing cross on the latter. Wide defense didn't work as well - got forced smashed too much.

Spiral Change Base has better Life After Death, though I can't tell how the matchup would play out with KO's and weak launching involved without trying it myself, which I can't do atm.

So, it's not too surprising that an aggressive base is OSing defensive zombies when it's a zombie base itself - a significant portion of Zombies can OS Defense combinations used in right spin, though I will say the availability is nice. I still need to check if it's much more practical than Spiral Change Base as while I assume so, I could be wrong.
The KO's on defensive zombies are interesting, but again not really that unique - I need to play around with defensive zombies a bit more I guess, look into the susceptibility to pushouts (it doesn't seem to happen with aggressive AR's - remember that I use my attacker, which is left spin, against defensive zombies on a regular basis) but seeing as I have stated that defensive zombies are among the most reliable types of plastics, I definitely need to look into this before (as I've said, I've encountered it before but not to the extent that it's been anything more than a rare occurrence.)

Sadly though, it doesn't shake the game up as much as I'd hoped (plastics attack, for all of its speed and aggression, can't really do that much to plastics defense, which is part of my lowered interest). Can't use an aggro AR with it, etc. It does seem to be a top tier zombie setup, but so is Spiral Change Base, ie I still need to look into practicality etc. Still, good find, if not quite as significant as I'd hoped.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Ah, that is disappointing. I too was thinking about its use for Spin Stealing Upper Attack the other day.

Against SCB, I think if FACB was in the same spin, it would be an easy win, but opposite spin could be tough, due to Weak Launching and whatnot. This is just a theory though.

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Most battles against SCB are assumed to be opposite spin because it does really poorly in same-spin - most of its ability to win comes from LAD rather than actual stamina, so I'd expect it to lose. Opposite spin though, as I said I'm not sure, will try to find out tomorrow or asap after tomorrow.

Hopefully tomorrow I'll be able to try it as a spin stealing upper attack base compared to defense grip base 2 etc, as I mentioned via PM, I am not sure how well it will work because without the free spin I'm not sure if the upper will work that well (my theory is that the free spin is the main reason it is able to exert upper attack in opposite spin at all, so removing that could hurt it). LAD wise I think it's a little better but it's difficult to tell with the different way they both behave (FACB is more stable solo-spun at low RPM's).

@Seafoam: Personally I don't use Customize Grip Base for regular zombies, Defense Grip Base 2 is generally a better choice unless for some reason you want more defense out of a regular zombie which probably wouldn't make a big difference anyway. I also use DB2 over CBB, and as I find BK's shaft more practical than the less stable (and thus less reliable against Circle Survivor combos) Bearing Stinger shaft, without DB2 I still end up using CBB over CGB. Of course if FACB ends up being practical they all might go out the window in lieu of it for regular zombies.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Sadly, the thing I was most hopeful about - using it with the spin stealing upper attacker in the hopes of OSing Circle Survivor combos, didn't work out, it gets force smashed too much. On further attempts against right spin defensive zombies, the AR just isn't good enough - too much recoil, too little spin steal, and also interferes with LAD as it can touch the stadium floor, so AR choice seems to be very important.

What AR are you talking here? That may be obvious but I haven't been following too closely. Also you got a mold one Wing Cross! Try it out on BB semi Flat against a top tier Wolborg 4 combo please.

shinobu:

Great find man. I'll probably try it out in the next UK plastics tourney.

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Upper Dragoon, as per usual for SSUA.

I got an NIB UFD :3. I'll try it out tomorrow, it skipped my mind (though as I intend to use UFD for the photography competition and need some stuff for my photograph, I won't be able to do thorough testing until the weekend probably - and even then, I'm kinda worried about damaging it at all tbh). Hand spinning them in same spin, 10bUFD gets trashed even spun second but that's not exactly a reliable measure lol.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Where the hell did you get that?! The collector in me is upset but it needs to be tested and I don't think there's anyone else who would/can do it.

Hand spinning tells you nothing at all considering the way it wins is by stalling for around about the first half then coming in and circling and jabbing away at the wolborg 4 combo's stamina until it dies. Also don't use that WD. When you test it use something that would intrude on the 4 protrusions since that's how the combo beats Wolborg 4 combos. I've always used 6 heavy since there's nothing else that's so compact.

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That order I had given up on arrived and it was in there alongside it all - I was going to make an offer for it (in fact, I had made an offer for it, but never got a response), so she put it in. Needless to say it was a very pleasant surprise. It's the Hong Kong Version, but I'm not complaining. The part of me that likes having nice shiny toys is also rather upset about having to test it - surprisingly the orthrus and appolon haven't really got me over the "no it's too pretty i don't wanna use it" thing yet (though I would prefer a mint non-opaque gekiryu-oh, personally). I'm pretty terrified about it breaking, though, I mean, it's visibly not all that strong

6 heavy sounds like a good way to not outspin anything of note but I will give it a shot. However your description of the way it wins basically means the entire battle happens at low RPM's so your sentence is a bit of a non sequitur (though really only did the handspin for kicks anyway). What happens if the Circle Survivor user launches it aggro though, and there is early contact?

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

My description might be a bit poor or off since I haven't launched the bey in over 5 months. I don't know how it would go if the circle survivor combo is aggro. It's so light that any decent hit would just knock it straight out. That's what happened when I used it against an aggro Driger V2. I really don't play with my beys at all so I don't know how to make it go aggro or maybe that's just because I just use wolborg 4's base uncustomised without changing the EG to something like Rock Bison's. Also i've never faced people using aggro ones/launching it so it goes aggro in any of the plastic tourneys over here (even though two or three people use them) so that question never appeared to me at all.

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This is kinda unrelated to the combo but I guess I'll ask it: What is the difference between Rock Bison's EG and Wolborg 4's?

Also, wouldn't Six Heavy UFD just be a worse 10B Bistool since Wing Cross mold 2 is better?

Just my thought.

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Prongs/attachment part is longer.

The second mold most likely isn't better, less likely to break yes, but better? Not with that done to its contact points. But I guess we'll see soon enough. As for the 6h, I'm sure ultra has a reason to suggest it, I'm guessing because it has more central weight distro than other weight disks (but personally, I'd sacrifice a tiny bit of that for better overall balance/weight distribution). I'll probably try both weight disks but as I said, I'm very nervous about the AR breaking.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

So Beywiki is wrong about Wing Cross then? Interesting.

Oh, so taller hight, correct?

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Yes it is very incorrect but in several ways. It doesn't even mention it's top tier use in compacts or how it the best AR to use for Wolborg 4 combos. Also Mold one outclasses two by a mile. They don't even compare tbh. That's understandable however since 95% of people who own a wing cross will own mold 2 since that is the one hasbro released and finding a takara mold 1 is near impossible outside of YJA. And even then they only come up in used lots every few months. Since it doesn't explain any proper uses of either mold i'll tell you the uses of mold 1. It kills wolborg 4 combos. When launched it stalls for a while which means Wolborg 4 can't do anything to it unless it's aggro and hits it. Then once it slows down to the point where it stops stalling it will go in for the kill and circles around wolborg 4 continuously in the same fashion that Duo 230MB does. This is where the difference is. The four protrusions jab that only mold one has jab away at the opponents stamina and since it's too weak to do anything at this point since it's running on empty the wolborg 4 combo just dies. In contrast an uncustomised hasbro UFD, bistool or gekiryu-oh only wins about half the time against Wolborg 4 combos since it become a proper stamina battle between the two combos. Whereas as long as the wolborg 4 combo isn't aggro a takara UFD, bistool or gekiryu-oh will always win from my experience.

@think:

Also I think the breakage thing is complete rubbish or something completely irrelevant. Yeah if you use mold one and someone uses attack then it might break. However if you use it uncustomised then there's no danger. I've had mine for a while and used it in every plastics tourney for a while and some playing around and it has only it has developed whitish stress marks on the protrusions (mine is a gekiryu-oh one so that's how I know). However this happened over time and since the setup to use it on isn't aggressive enough to break it I don't think it should be there at all. I think that may harp back to a time in the number series when considering the beys in there, Wing Cross would have been pretty much the only suitable AR for attack types other than bearing stinger's AR (yes that does just show how the # series is horrendous for attack.)

I hope that answers the questions and qualms of both of you.

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I don't know, I worry that you've just been lucky. I've owned two fake mold 1 wing crosses and they both broke real fast, where I'd expect a real one to. It just looks and sounds like something delicate and I'd rather treat it as such.

Anyway, despite this I tried your suggestion. First time, it did exactly what you said. But then I wound the EG up and whether or not there's early contact, it comes in at higher RPM only to be force smashed and lose. Mightn't be completely consistent, battles like this can be prone to variation, but it's not really something I'm too concerned about losing to if I use a circle survivor combo competitively.

10bUFD did a little better, but still lost very narrowly thanks to the top half of the CS combo continuing to spin in the correct direction. Only did one match of that though, too aggressive for me right now and I'm trying to keep this AR near mint for the moment.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

What setup did you use? Also when I've used it I do wind the engine gear and it makes no difference. It still always won. Maybe it was because I was just using the base straight off. Also when I used it at tourney it always won with ease with 2/3 and 3/3 against circle survivor combos.

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Wing Cross/6 Heavy/Semi Flat Base, Circle Survivor combo is in the above post. And yes, IIRC beating Semi Flat Base combos is one of a few reasons why I use that specific setup for my circle survivor combo - I've tried just about every possible setup - including every base I own and that's the setup I chose, soooo

As for making Circle Survivor Aggro, it's hard, generally have to wind the sg and launch real crazy, even then it won't move as fast as Semi Flat Base. I didn't get any KO's, might get some but it's probably negligible.

ShinobuXD: Beywiki is wrong on a lot of plastics stuff (we're working on it, but I'm pretty burnt out at the moment), 10bBistool not being trash being a big error haha - enough that I made that video series just to settle it. There are a lot of errors with comparative performance - War Lion being better for defense than Tiger Defenser (it's shaped poorer/stuff can get under the SAR/the SAR doesn't really do much at all). Same thing with Gyro AR supposedly being great (low tier 2/high tier 3 at best), etc.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

I meant for the circle survivor combo. Fine but when it seems to kill it easily when you don't launch aggro and tbh no one ever has in a tourney I've been in.

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I didn't need to launch aggro to beat it, just wind the SG fully. I launched the wing cross combo second on all occasions which should cover any subconscious launching of the Circle Survivor Combo harder. When I say aggro I mean "it tornado stalls for a bit before settling down", though I've gotten fairly aggressive behaviour out of more worn Circle Survivors.

AR: Wing Cross (Mold 2)
WD: Wide Defense
SG: Right Engine Gear Circle Defenser (Rock Bison)
BB: Normal Base Wolborg 4 Version
CEW Part: Circle Survivor

Both had regular (long) bitchips, for what it's worth - generally find in matches that involve same spin stamina and can be close that those are a marginally better choice, so I kept it consistent, though it could just be me.

Do you know what both molds of Semi Flat Base look like? I was using the thicker mold, which UFD came with and which I assumed you meant given you mentioned TSing. Doubt it'd make a huge difference but you know.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

I always wind it fully... Circle Survivor still loses... Tbh no I didn't know there were two molds of BB semi flat. I also launch it second although when I have launched first before it still wins. When you did your testing did you always shoot the circle survivor aggro? Because that's where the issue arises. I never even knew you could shot it aggro... So I never have done and as such the other combo dominates.

Okay this is probably where the difference arises. I don't own rock bison. I'm assuming that with Rock Bison's SG it's better? Also yes you can say that if someone shoots it aggro then it can be beaten but no one in the plastic tourneys i've been in has ever done so and as such it always won. Also people at the tourneys haven't used Rock Bison's engine gear. Whether it wins or not depends totally on whether the circle survivor is shot aggro or not.

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It's not unusual for the combo, with Rock Bison's EG, to beat Semi Flat Base combos fairly reliably, so it's not a huge surprise to me. As I said, it wins whether there's early contact or not - i.e. whether or not I aggro launch.

I make these posts for the benefit of everyone, not just you. I can't tailor them specifically to your tournament scene.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

That wasn't my reason for saying it. I was saying it for anyone who is watching who wants to understand the reasons your results were different than mine, and becayse for a top tier part that would almost certainly see play in every WBO plastic tournament, there's very little info circle survivor floating around the forum, so I wanted to make it clear to document it (and just to hammer that point in I had no idea there would such a massive difference for using Rock Bison's EG since it's not written down anywhere or if it is it's pretty obscure and I missed it). You shouldn't assume btw. When I wrote that down it didn't even occur to me that it could be interpreted as a complaint against you.

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All right. Anyway, I've made a note of the Rock Bison thing on-site a few times, IIRC - it performs better against most things, I figure it's because it moves the weight disk and AR further out of reach, so good hits can't be landed/stamina sapped. Just a theory, though - could be the altered centre of gravity too.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List