[PLA] Banning certain Screw Zeus combinations

I referred to Screw Zeus only with the generation stuff. I totally forgot about War Lion / Great Tiger, my bad. And Ark Pyramid does have a SAR of course. The parts list does not list a SAR, but it does have one.
So, I'm out for today. Maybe we will get some more feedback or an actual rule change the next days Tongue_out

Edit: And now Zoro was faster, lol.
I wanted to add my findings about the Screw Zeus and War Lion compatibility. There is two ways I found that War Lion can fit the first way allows movement of the sub attack ring. This orientation places War Lion between the slopes and heads of Screw Zeus. But the second method which "fixes" Screw Zeus in place which can be done with War Monkey/ War Bear and War Lion but is highly questionable. These attack rings can technically work with Screw Zeus due to the amount of space that the S era uses for sub attack rings is large enough that allows the main attack ring in certain orientations to be laying on top of Screw Zeus' higher layers with little difficulty to no difficulty in turning the attack ring into the spin gear. One example would be instead to place War Lion where the flat part of lion head is between the bump detail of the slope portion of Screw Zeus. This causes War Lion's head detailing to act as a stopper preventing Screw Zeus from moving without applying force.
(Jul. 31, 2016  11:02 PM)RDF3 Wrote: Would't be comfortable with the ruling that AR and SAR combos need to be from the same generation- remember, War Lion's Main AR (and Great Tiger since they're basically the same thing) still fits with Screw Zeus and banning their use with Screw Zeus is completely illogical.

I've never lead to say I would want to ban War Lion Screw Zeus. That's why it's on the "Functioning" list.

DrigerGatling, Wombat told me that it was Mystery Cutter. This is the first time I've heard "Ark Pyramid". ..so what's the real name for the AR?
Also, seconding that it doesn't work with Screw Zeus either. I own every SAR compatible AR, and I'm the only one who took interest in this whole debacle, so that's why I made this proposal. (If you search long and hard, you can find me questioning why this combo didn't work for me when I first got the parts in 2014)
(Aug. 01, 2016  3:15 AM)Neo Wrote:
(Jul. 31, 2016  11:02 PM)RDF3 Wrote: Would't be comfortable with the ruling that AR and SAR combos need to be from the same generation- remember, War Lion's Main AR (and Great Tiger since they're basically the same thing) still fits with Screw Zeus and banning their use with Screw Zeus is completely illogical.

I've never lead to say I would want to ban War Lion Screw Zeus. That's why it's on the "Functioning" list.

DrigerGatling, @[Wombat] told me that it was Mystery Cutter. This is the first time I've heard "Ark Pyramid". ..so what's the real name for the AR?
Also, seconding that it doesn't work with Screw Zeus either. I own every SAR compatible AR, and I'm the only one who took interest in this whole debacle, so that's why I made this proposal. (If you search long and hard, you can find me questioning why this combo didn't work for me when I first got the parts in 2014)

Ah, that was totally my bad. Mystery Cutter is the EG piece, Ark Pyramid is tha AR. I just misremembered the name is all.

Also, at the risk of beating a dead horse, Neo seems to be the first person to ever experience this problem. As far as I know, up until him no one has ever needed excessive force to but Dragon Breaker on Screw Zeus, or else I think this issue would have been raised in the past, no ? In the approximately 4 years since th!nk introduced this combo to the WBO, none of the members here has ever had trouble assembling it until this thread's creation? Not to mention the over-a-decade's worth of competitive Plastics players who have used this exact setup (albeit with a different base) and never experienced issues? Clearly the combo was considered legal back then, similarly to the CWD Fixed Crusher setup, because otherwise I'm sure we would have heard some official ruling about it. And for what it's worth, while I do not actually own a Zeus myself I have had the chance to assemble a DB+SZ setup on two separate occasions, and was able to do so without excessive force (admittedly the first time I tried I did struggle finding the right way to align the parts so they fit together properly).

I realize I am just playing devil's advocate (read: not trolling) by this point. It seems a little strange that this compatibility issue has never been noticed or addressed until now, and also contradicts what we have known as "true" for over ten years. However, it also seems like enough people agree with Neo now that it doesn't work to ban the setup.

EDIT: lol for whatever reason I didn't get the PM for this tag until just now (August 6th, a full week after the tag was made). Weird.
(Jul. 31, 2016  11:02 PM)RDF3 Wrote: Would't be comfortable with the ruling that AR and SAR combos need to be from the same generation- remember, War Lion's Main AR (and Great Tiger since they're basically the same thing) still fits with Screw Zeus and banning their use with Screw Zeus is completely illogical. Besides, Great Tiger/War Lion + Dragon Saucer SAR works for zombies in left spin (even if it's not tier 1).

My proposal of a generational ruling was solely for Screw Zeus as it is obviously an outlier among S-ARs and was not designed with other generations in mind. That said though, it was not made with a full understanding of the issue and so, if War Lion (and it's remake) are perfectly compatible (or imperfectly, since it could be argued that a still S-AR isn't perfect compatibility) then I guess a seemingly arbitrary list based on actual performance is the best option.
Quote:As far as I know, up until him no one has ever needed excessive force to but Dragon Breaker on Screw Zeus, or else I think this issue would have been raised in the past, no ? In the approximately 4 years since th!nk introduced this combo to the WBO, none of the members here has ever had trouble assembling it until this thread's creation? Not to mention the over-a-decade's worth of competitive Plastics players who have used this exact setup (albeit with a different base) and never experienced issues?

That does not change the actual fact. You also say that you don't own Zeus. The plastics community (at least the competitive scene) seems to be rather "small", I can imagine not that many of its members have both Zeus and Gaia Dragoon V and some of the ones who own both beys might not even be interested in any customization/competitive use of their parts.
I mean I don't intend to push the whole thing up with another 6 sites of discussion. It's just the two things that I want to point out and why a ban is reasonable to me:

  1. Even though DBSZ can be attached to a Spin Gear, it does not fit properly. You can see an explanation why in the video I've posted before (Screw Zeus "second layer" and the non-supporting old AR).
  2. Everyone, who has access to both Zeus and Gaia Dragoon V, will be able to obtain an even better alternative with Gaia Dragoon G's Dragon Saucer or War Lion/Great Tiger, which actually line up with Screw Zeus.

I don't want to force any rule change, I mean there are not even enough people in my area to organize official tournaments regularly, but it is a fact that nearly no older ARs can be attached in a proper way. The reason is their design as I've explained in the video.
I mean I know what you mean, but honestly, "people have done this for 10 years" is not that good of an argument to put this issue aside.
What's this ten years business? Using that sub AR in this way is fairly recent occurrence. Actually, if I'm not mistaken it even used to be the case that if a part was designed to be free spinning, it would be illegal to make a combo where it did not spin freely.
@DrigerGatling: Wombat DID say he didn't own Zeus but he put together DBSZ (someone else's then) without that much of a hassle. There's quite a few people who put it together without much problem, yes it's clear that this design oversight meant that DB+SZ is not perfectly compatible but that doesn't change the fact that some people still manage to stick them on a combo without much hassle.

@Cye: Um, Dragon Breaker +War Bear SAR? It only works if you fix it in place, and I'm sure it's quite an old combo.

Again, I'm trying to beat a dying horse here.
Quote:Wombat DID say he didn't own Zeus but he put together DBSZ (someone else's then) without that much of a hassle.

Yeah, I got the point, I just wanted to stress that e.g. he does not own Zeus and so not that many people might have both Zeus and GDV to report any compatibility issues.

I guess the main problem of this discussion is that one party can not understand how the other's can fit DBSZ together while the other party can not understand how it does not fit XD
The only thing I can confirm is the way Screw Zeus is designed with an additional "layer" on its SAR while Dragon Breaker has no space to compensate it. I don't question the fact that you can put it together, it just does not make any sense (physically) that it lines up without any bending.

And to refer to Cye Kinomiya's post: I don't see any problems with fixing a part like a SAR (just like Wombat's reference CWD Fixed Crusher). It adds customization and possibilities, it is no game breaker, it's just a nice feature. But I do see a problem in bending parts and that's what DBSZ does, as a fact, due to the design of the parts.

And I'm sorry for repeating the same arguments over and over again. This is not part of an effective discussion. I'll quit this for now and come back to it if it's necessary.
(Aug. 01, 2016  4:02 PM)DrigerGatling Wrote: I guess the main problem of this discussion is that one party can not understand how the other's can fit DBSZ together while the other party can not understand how it does not fit XD

The only thing I can confirm is the way Screw Zeus is designed with an additional "layer" on its SAR while Dragon Breaker has no space to compensate it. I don't question the fact that you can put it together, it just does not make any sense (physically) that it lines up without any bending.

I actually just saw your video (I like how I wasn't phased after reading you made a video multiple timesWink and I see this 3 Layer part. It's quite interesting to see that they may have intended Saucer and Screw Zeus to go together. I think most of us believe Takara thought everything had to be perfect, but in this case I think they could have redesigned Screw Zeus somewhere in the design stage so it would work with the somewhat recently released Dragon Saucer. And so we ended up with a "good enough for, I guess" sort of thing. Just an idea.

(Aug. 01, 2016  3:19 PM)RDF3 Wrote: @DrigerGatling: Wombat DID say he didn't own Zeus but he put together DBSZ (someone else's then) without that much of a hassle. There's quite a few people who put it together without much problem,

Has part wear ever occurred to you? The possibility that the Screw Zeus heads have been worn down after using this combo for a while? Or possibly that the slopes of the SAR have bend down over time? Whenever I managed to force them two together, I noticed the nasty bend it does to Screw Zeus. This may be the reason that some people got it to work.
But I think that's odd how some are able to work, but then you have me who bought GDV and Zeus new in box, and to my 14 year old's dismay th!nk's super cool Dragon combo doesn't work. And then you have three different Screw Zeus' in DrigerGatling's video. So, my only logical conclusion is that something has been altered via stress over time that this combo may have worked for some.


And; if anyone else who has these parts would like to speak up, that would be much appreciated. I'd rather hear your opinion than have you sit in the back waiting for this thing to pass so you can still use this combo. Something has to be done.