[PLA] Banning certain Screw Zeus combinations

It fits, but you have to force it. Th!nk had to force his too I am sure. I think he just liked it so much that he kind of ignored the rule that says you can't force parts to fit that aren't made for each other. Lol
Let's put it this way: You can put Dragon Breaker along with Screw Zeus on the SG, but it is not a good fit. At least it doesn't feel correct to do so. For me personally it is okay to go along with Dragon Saucer & Screw Zeus. You put these together, you attach them to the SG, fine,no force needed. That's not really the case for Dragon Breaker. I think it depends on what you call a good fit.
I can upload a video on this topic if you guys like. I mean this is just my personal opinion. I'm not happy with banning anything, but... nah, I don't like DBSZ either.
Well, it's kinda still intended if you ask me. I mean, Takara didn't intentionally design Screw Zeus to be incompatible with Dragon Breaker anyhow- it's still AR and SAR. Maybe th!nk found a way to do this without forcing Screw Zeus to bend like you guys did. He did interpret "illegal modifications" as adding new substances or physically altering parts though, so maybe it's not in his mind that Dragon Breaker and Screw Zeus needing to be forced together is illegal. Besides, Screw Zeus isn't that likely to break- it's not like it's as fragile as War Lion or Neo Cross Horn anyway.
IIRC you need to sandwich Galzzly's SAR in between Dragon Breaker and the WD in order for it to work- otherwise, it will free spin which will cause a reduction in attack power. Maybe that's what Neo is getting at. I'm not sure if you guys tried this but you should soon.
It was definitely an oversight from Takara, since the raised up parts of Screw Zeus are the only raised up S-AR I believe, when the others were flat, they clearly were not thinking about it's compatibility, maybe it was only there to fit Screw Zeus because maybe it was too big and heavy looking and therefore they thought it would be OP? Though it doesn't explain how it still fits onto some ARs.
Even if it was an oversight from Takara, i don't think the reasoning was because it was too OP. Takara is sometimes oblivious about competitive use, and Screw Zeus wasn't very useful back then because Defense Grip Base wasn't allowed to be used with an inverted tip(well, not clearly but they generally avoided doing stuff like that) and the only viable options were Uriel 2's BB (too fragile) or Storm Grip Base (too slow).

I'm not up for banning it honestly. It still fits after all (even if a bit forced), no new substances are added and nothing is physically altered. It's also not gamebreaking (suffers some recoil), and maybe th!nk assembled his beys starting from the BB instead of the AR. (So it goes: stick SG to BB, put WD in, put SAR+AR combo in, sandwiching the SAR tightly when neccesary."
Quote:Well, it's kinda still intended if you ask me. I mean, Takara didn't intentionally design Screw Zeus to be incompatible with Dragon Breaker anyhow- it's still AR and SAR.

I definitely see your point and I'd like to agree, but it just hurts to attach Dragon Break & Screw Zeus to a BB. If I have to give an equal example for MFB: You can fit L-Drago II on Lighting, you can attach a Facebolt, it does work. It just doesn't seem right to do so. And the other point: It is not necessary. You can fit L-Drago II on Meteo, and so you can fit Screw Zeus on Dragon Saucer instead of using Dragon Breaker.
I really don't want to get this concept banned, but I'm not good with DBSZ and if the others agree on DSSZ I would say that's the way to go.
I'll show you an important detail within a video, because it's not really great to explain this in raw text.
For your MFB examples, Lightning and Meteo are only legal with their respective Clear Wheels (L-Drago I and L-Drago II) since they were intended to be that way, because of that, they physically fit but aren't legal.

Dragon Breaker and Screw Zeus on the other hand aren't intended to be incompatible physically, it just happens to be less than perfect when fitting.

By the way, have you tried fitting Dragon Breaker on War Bear SAR yet? According to the old Beywiki's Galzzly article, it needs to be sandwiched in between Dragon Breaker and the WD (read it if you want to know what I mean, here's the link:
http://wiki.worldbeyblade.org/index.php?title=Galzzly
I'm sure the ARs that don't fit well with Dragon Breaker (including Screw Zeus) are intended to be used that way. IIRC only War Lion fits well on Dragon Breaker and it's a fragile AR so I'm rather cautious.

For the record, yes, Dragon Saucer fits better but is inferior to Dragon Breaker in attack power (see th!nk's thinkblargh blog, link is in his sig)

Oh, and I'm using Ipad so videos are slightly hassle-laden for me but that's okay.
Is Screw Zeus really intended to be compatible with other ARs though? Given how much thicker it is than all other S-ARs and how poorly it's proprietary AR houses them, I would theorise that maybe Screw Zeus is designed to work more like Spark Attack Ring than War Bear.

But maybe not, IDK, it is listed as a Sub Attack Ring still...
My voice is a bit odd, I was terribly tired... but I would like you to watch it.




I think this way of explaining it is reasonable. They are indeed intended to be switched out, but Dragon Breaker is just "last gen" where the idea of a SAR with multiple "layers" didn't exist.
And it is more likely that DS was designed to fit on SZ. Its actual SAR does not need the "higher" heads.
That actually explains the situation pretty well. If Screw Zeus at rest on an inverted Dragon Saucer aligns with the bottom of the AR but the same isn't true of Dragon Breaker, then making a distinction between the rulings for them suddenly feels much less arbitrary.
If things are as you say though, perhaps we should simply make the ruling that Screw Zeus cannot be used on pre-G series ARs.
(Jul. 31, 2016  1:16 PM)Dracomageat Wrote: Is Screw Zeus really intended to be compatible with other ARs though? Given how much thicker it is than all other S-ARs and how poorly it's proprietary AR houses them, I would theorise that maybe Screw Zeus is designed to work more like Spark Attack Ring than War Bear.

But maybe not, IDK, it is listed as a Sub Attack Ring still...

It IS intended to be compatible with all ARs- otherwise, it wouldn't be legal for WBO tourney play would it? I do not think Screw Zeus were in any way intended to work in only certain ARs- it needlessly compilcates things, and given the target audience of the toys were kids back then, would make it utterly confusing and frustrating. I wonder how th!nk managed to get it together with good alignment though.

found the post that th!nk made on Dragon Breaker + Screw Zeus here, it's somewhere in there. I'll spoiler it cuz it's big
@Dracomageat: Yeah I think it does. I don't want anything to get banned, but I want a distinction. Imo DBSZ does not fit, I won't use it and I won't recommend doing this combination. But I also don't agree with "If we ban DBSZ, we should also ban DSSZ", because it's a whole other situation.

@RDF3: It might just be that Takara developed a new type of SAR with more design and durability to it. And you can see that Holy Despell (of course) and Dragon Saucer fit on this type of SAR due to their "new" design. They couldn't change DB and all the previous AR because they were already released. And maybe that design change wasn't a great idea 'cause it resulted, as you can clearly see, in compatibility issues.
Do you even own DB&SZ btw. to test it yourself?
It's not complicating and frustrating to limit SZ to AR of its own generation as Dracomageat suggested.
And more than that: I don't see your point. We can use DSSZ, it's not worse than DBSZ. I also respect th!nk for what he did for Platics community, he seems to be a nice guy, I love his idea of Uriel tip in WB2 casing and so on. But th!nk is not the status quo. And if some of our members request reconsideration on a topic like this, we should look at it.
I just mean: "Th!nk said so" is not an argument. But "It does not fit properly and DB feels like it will snap every moment when it hits some more durable object than the opponent itself" seems quite reasonable to me.
I don't want a ban, I just don't recommend using this. You can use DS instead and everything is fine.
Bingo, DrigerGatling, you got me. I don't own any plastics, but it seemed to me that if he was able to get it working, it's kinda jarring how we don't- he did say it was a struggle to get it together with good alignment, and I'm sure we are facing that issue right now, but he did manage to do it, so it works for him. I'm just curious as to how he did it.. And while I'm not up for a ban either, I think I'll leave it at that-don't recommend using it if it can't fit.

Sorry if I seemed a little persistent on the whole thing. My bad Unhappy
(Jul. 31, 2016  7:46 AM)RDF3 Wrote: Even if it was an oversight from Takara, i don't think the reasoning was because it was too OP. Takara is sometimes oblivious about competitive use, and Screw Zeus wasn't very useful back then because Defense Grip Base wasn't allowed to be used with an inverted tip(well, not clearly but they generally avoided doing stuff like that) and the only viable options were Uriel 2's BB (too fragile) or Storm Grip Base (too slow).

I'm not up for banning it honestly. It still fits after all (even if a bit forced), no new substances are added and nothing is physically altered. It's also not gamebreaking (suffers some recoil), and maybe th!nk assembled his beys starting from the BB instead of the AR. (So it goes: stick SG to BB, put WD in, put SAR+AR combo in, sandwiching the SAR tightly when neccesary."

Yeah I know Takara isn't aware of what's actually good or not and generally believe whatever stats they put in but it should be noticable on how much bigger Screw Zeus is compared to other AR, and maybe in their theory thought it was strong, but perhaps it was meant to fit onto other ARs and the elevated parts were purely for design or some sort of defense, again, probably by their logic.

However, even if it was meant to fit, I don't really like the stress it adds to the S-AR, but, I suppose whether anyone wants to use it or not should be by choice, and whoever chooses to use it can only blame themselves if it does break, and those who choose not to use it to avoid breaking it would be by their choice.
Well worded Jinbee. All I'm trying to say is we leave it alone; whether or not you want to use it should be your own choice- breakages are largely our fault anyway.
This isn't really a matter of breakage. I'm saying it COULD break. But if something doesn't fit, it doesn't fit.
We aren't allowed to use Maybe Flat and CGB tips in Fortress Base even though it fits perfectly. I'm not up for tip changes, though. It simply doesn't fit.
Saucer is already a competitive part. People typically own it for the SAR on Zombies. If they own Screw Zeus, I'd say it's in the ballpark for them to own GDG. The difference in DBSZ and DSSZ is negligible. The idea is to fix SZ in place. You want it's shape, and the main AR isn't as important.
If something doesn't work without using excessive force to use, why be legal? I'm sure if you owned the parts, RDF3, you would probably agree.
I'm still curious about something though: Those in this thread had clarified that Dragon Breaker and Screw Zeus do not fit correctly. However, I'm more interested in the findings of those outside this thread (e.g Bey Brad, Kei, Ultra, Kai-V, etc etc) as I can only assume things without their answers. And for the record, th!nk (arugh, I sound like a fanboy now) mentioned that it is a struggle to align properly, but works well once it does.

@Neo: Well, you could just use Dragon Saucer and leave Dragon Breaker alone, since it seems only a handful of people had the compability issue. Again, I need more data on this. If they end up getting the same results as you, Stoney and DrigerGatling reported, then yes, I must reluctantly allow it to bite the dust. Sorry for causing such a fuss, wasn't my intention XD
RDF3
Let's clarify something;
I own two different Screw Zeus' and two Dragon Breakers. They haven't worked. I've tried everything. Upside down it works, but that limits Weight Disk choice. And I wouldn't be okay with that. IMO, you should be able to use all Weight Disks. I have looked at the position of th!nk blog post. That didn't work either. There is no one position where it works, and I can confirm this. It's a matter of people who haven't spoken up about it, and are content about the rules. This is actually my only issues with the current rules. I don't want to be a party pooper for the 3 people who use this combo. Saucer is just as good, which is what I tried to explain in the last post.
Argh, my bad Neo, I over reacted then.

But IMO if it doesn't work for you, use something else and leave it alone. That's what I was trying to say: It didn't work for you (and several others here) but I'm not sure if anyone else outside of this thread suffers the same issue. If they do, then it's kinda saddening but I can't do anything. If not, well I'm afraid this could get much worse (no threats intended). In your case, DB doesn't work but DS does; use that since it isn't that much worse but try not to ban it outright just because yours didn't work. And no offense intended, so no hard feelings ok?

Besides, DB+SZ isn't my only favorite Hyper Aggresive Smash AR- There's still Neo Cross Horn, Dark Wing and a slew of other ARs. I'm also keen on data on how Dragon Breaker performs with it's own SAR. But either way I'm getting off topic.
Quote:This isn't really a matter of breakage. I'm saying it COULD break. But if something doesn't fit, it doesn't fit.
We aren't allowed to use Maybe Flat and CGB tips in Fortress Base even though it fits perfectly. I'm not up for tip changes, though. It simply doesn't fit.
Saucer is already a competitive part. People typically own it for the SAR on Zombies. If they own Screw Zeus, I'd say it's in the ballpark for them to own GDG. The difference in DBSZ and DSSZ is negligible. The idea is to fix SZ in place. You want it's shape, and the main AR isn't as important.
If something doesn't work without using excessive force to use, why be legal?
Quote:There is no one position where it works, and I can confirm this.
Quote:Saucer is just as good, which is what I tried to explain in the last post.

That sums up pretty much everything that I think about this whole topic. And actually - although I'm not happy about banning something in general -, I'm not really sure why I said I'm not for this ban. DBSZ does not work out, we do have a substitute which works and can be obtained without any problems (which is btw. the exact opposite to the inverted Defense Grip Base topic).

Quote:@Neo: Well, you could just use Dragon Saucer and leave Dragon Breaker alone, since it seems only a handful of people had the compability issue. Again, I need more data on this.

Dude, it won't fit any better if the whole community gets their hands on these two parts to test it out. We have access to mutiples of these parts and it simply does not work. Th!nk even says it doesn't. If he's managed to successfully force the whole thing on a SG and calls it "working", than congrats. But it won't change the fact it actually isn't working.
There are no mold variations of Dragon Breaker without the surrounding, closed "SAR-line" (just can't find a word for that...) and so there is no mold variation of Screw Zeus without the uplifted slopes and heads.
Have you even seen my video or is the explanation just so bad? XD
I just don't see why you hang on this so much. It might look cool, it might be a great hyper aggresive AR&SAR combination, but if something does not work, it does not work.
And to ban a forcefully adjusted part combination which is not even necessary seems... reasonable.

/Edit: @Zoroaste: Sorry man :'D
To make something clear. None of them work. Unless there are some mold variations that we aren't aware of. I have tried Hasbro and Takara, at least 2 or 3 of each. I have heard plenty of people say that theirs don't work either.
Yes, there are plenty of people who have not spoken up saying that theirs doesn't work
But not one person has spoken up saying that theirs does. Until then, we will assume that none of them do
Edit: Driger beat me Crying
@DrigerGatling: I watched your video, but without the sound (silent) XD

If it isn't working, then, unfortunately, I'm fighting for nothing for two pages XD
My apologies to all of you then.


As I outlined though, DBSZ isn't the only AR setup I like. If Dragon Saucer+Screw Zeus can fit just fine and be only very slightly worse, then I'm cool. As for why I'm hanging on so much, I don't like it if customization potential is reduced by bans no matter how justified, but I guess it's a checkmate here.
Quote:As I outlined though, DBSZ isn't the only AR setup I like. If Dragon Saucer+Screw Zeus can fit just fine and be only very slightly worse, then I'm cool. As for why I'm hanging on so much, I don't like it if customization potential is reduced by bans no matter how justified, but I guess it's a checkmate here.

Sure, that's the reason I've wanted to show that Dragon Saucer is working. Because I do want to get DBSZ banned, but I've wanted to ouline reasons why Dragon Saucer is a different case 'cause its design varies from any other main AR.
So I hope that we can come to an agreement in which we can keep Screw Zeus for hyper aggresive attack, just with Dragon Saucer instead of Dragon Breaker. And it wouldn't be that complicated to limited Screw Zeus' compatibility to Holy Despell & Dragon Saucer, that is the own generation excluding Hasbro's release of Gabriel.

Edit: Oh, I totally forgot about War Lion/Great Tiger. This does work as well.

Quote:Functioning:
War Lion (Galeon Attacker)
Great Tiger (Guardian Driger)
Holy Dispell (Zeus)
Dragon Saucer (Gaia Dragoon G)

Non-Functioning:
Great Dragon (Gaia Dragoon)
Dragon Breaker (Gaia Dragoon V)
Twin Horn (Hasbro, White Gabriel G)
War Bear (Galzzly)
War Monkey (Galman)
Dark Wing (Dark Series)
??? (Desert Sphinxer)

This is basically Neo's list again. I can confirm everything so far except for Ark Pyramid. I don't have a Desert Sphinxer.
Would't be comfortable with the ruling that AR and SAR combos need to be from the same generation- remember, War Lion's Main AR (and Great Tiger since they're basically the same thing) still fits with Screw Zeus and banning their use with Screw Zeus is completely illogical. Besides, Great Tiger/War Lion + Dragon Saucer SAR works for zombies in left spin (even if it's not tier 1).

As for Dragon Saucer + Screw Zeus, I agree. It's not like I can't use Dragon Breaker with War Lion's or War Bear's SAR anyway...

Among the non-functioning ARs only Great Dragon and Dragon Breaker have any business on Screw Zeus, the rest don't, so I don't see any problems with the list aside from them.

Ark Pyramid doesn't have an SAR IIRC. I don't know how it got there.

EDIT: whoops, beaten by Driger.
Yeah, Ark Pyramid does have an SAR. It's a triangle, like the AR
And yeah, it's too tight for Screw Zeus