This year would probably be a good timing.
[PLA] Banning certain Screw Zeus combinations
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No, I agree, so if the whole Committee also agrees, then it is just a matter of me remembering to do something about this in the next two days.
(Jul. 07, 2016 4:27 PM)Neo Wrote:(Jul. 07, 2016 3:44 PM)Kai-V Wrote: This year would probably be a good timing.
It doesn't sound as if you agree with this.
I want a definite answer. It is solidly my belief, and others, that these rules on SAR compatibility mode must be added.
Haha, it was clear to me that she agreed as well. Otherwise she wouldn't say that this year is good timing to do it.
Sorry, but I'd just like to see something done with this as soon as possible. It's just been laying here in limbo for a while, and I'd like the rules to be amended prior to Remembrance Day. An answer along the lines of "the committee will review it" is what I was looking for.
So, just to be clear, and for the sake of keeping as many Screw Zeus' from possibly breaking or bending, this will be banned in any future plastic tournaments correct?
![[Image: 2hdvatw.png]](https://i64.tinypic.com/2hdvatw.png)
Was hoping that it would have been announced in the HMS & Plastics Remembrance thread; has the Committee since discussed the banning of it? Don't want it to be banned a day before or after the Plastics tournaments.
We will discuss it and post the outcome of our discussion soon. I agree that something to clarify the legal usage configurations of Screw Zeus should be done.
![[Image: beybase-signature-is-beyblade-a-sport-Article.jpg]](https://i.postimg.cc/VLksgt2k/beybase-signature-is-beyblade-a-sport-Article.jpg)
I am not a big fan of the exceptions to rules and so forth. I think things should be all or nothing unless there is a good reason, for the sake of logic and simplicity. Obviously Screw Zeus doesn't fit with Dragon Breaker, but it doesn't fit with Dragon Saucer either. Yeah, you don't have to force it as much, but it's obviously still using a part not as intended. It is cheating in a way. Locking Screw Zeus down when it was never intended to be. Also, I have never even heard about Screw Zeus breaking for what that is worth, did they back in the day? I can see both sides of the argument and don't really care if it gets banned or not, but I think if it does get banned, then so should it's use with Dragon Saucer and all of the other ARs that it was obviously never intended to work with. I personally think there are better choices for attack anyway, so making it so you can no longer essentially cheat with this part shouldn't be a big deal really.
Yes, Screw Zeus is a breakable part, though Screw Zeus on Dragon Saucer is not nearly as fragile as Holy Despell with the Dragon Saucer Sub-AR.
Were the WBO to outright ban "cheating" part combinations, they would have to define "thick" and "thin" Sub-ARs and the ARs that held them to make the two entirely uninterchangeable. This is not, however, something that the WBO will ever do as much of their competitive scene relies on "cheaty" combos. Be it forcing the free-moving HMS Customize Weight Disks to be stationary attack parts or inverting the tip of Seaborg's Defense Grip Base, unintended part use is just too ingrained into their play.
Were the WBO to outright ban "cheating" part combinations, they would have to define "thick" and "thin" Sub-ARs and the ARs that held them to make the two entirely uninterchangeable. This is not, however, something that the WBO will ever do as much of their competitive scene relies on "cheaty" combos. Be it forcing the free-moving HMS Customize Weight Disks to be stationary attack parts or inverting the tip of Seaborg's Defense Grip Base, unintended part use is just too ingrained into their play.
maybe, but this technically doesn't actually fit, as you have to force it in.
I'm just explaining the situation to the poster before me. Your distinction is not a very clear cut one IMO but it'll do.
My point is that neither were intended to be used in that manner. And TT's intentions are what we normally use to draw the line, no? We seem to make exceptions to their intentions to benefit the metagame if it is necessary. This doesn't really benefit it and make the meta game any better imo. This just seems like something that was Th!nk's favorite combo that he got legalized because he liked it. Or it was never made illegal for the same reason, not because their was a need in the meta so bad that it warranted a disregard of the rules and TT's intention
How is Screw Zeus on Spark Attack Ring BTW, I've always wondered about that?
Quote:How is Screw Zeus on Spark Attack Ring BTW, I've always wondered about that?
That would be interesting to know. Perhaps we can find someone who has access to both parts.
Quote:This is not, however, something that the WBO will ever do as much of their competitive scene relies on "cheaty" combos.
I see your point, but I have to disagree with you on that. Beyblade is not some high-placed sport with rules to restrict like everything. Of course we need rules to avoid breaking the game itself, that is obvious. But there is one thing I really like about the Plastic generation especially:
And that's the massive variety of combinations you can come up with, whether it is interchanging ARs&SARs like Twin Horn & Dragon Saucer, putting different shafts into different casings like Double Bearing Core and Defense Grip Base 2 tip... I mean I don't think that Takara really intended to do such things, the molds of the parts are just similar so we can design these builds. Bladers have come up with many creative ideas within the last years to expand the varieties given. That what makes the Plastic gen special, you can't do these things with MFB & Burst.
And for me - I mean it's really my personal opinion - there are two question:
Can the parts considered be put together without using force?
Is the use of this combination breaking the game?
Look at the inversion of the Defense Grip Base tip. I know you don't like the idea, I can understand that in a way. But why do we do that? To give people the chance to build up an effective attack customization without spending their whole money on a Uriel 2. And neither Storm Grip Base nor Customize Grip Base have an equal tip design / move pattern.
I really don't care if Dragon Saucer & Screw Zeus gets banned, I mean I don't use that setup a lot. It's just that I want to say that I understand why some setups are still legal to use, even if these were never intended by Takara.
Aaaaaand to sum it up:
Spoiler (Click to View)
![[Image: MuYejjy.png]](https://i.imgur.com/MuYejjy.png)
(Jul. 10, 2016 11:35 AM)Dracomageat Wrote: This is not, however, something that the WBO will ever do as much of their competitive scene relies on "cheaty" combos. Be it forcing the free-moving HMS Customize Weight Disks to be stationary attack parts or inverting the tip of Seaborg's Defense Grip Base, unintended part use is just too ingrained into their play.
This is just a totally unfair characterization, and proves that you are mostly just ridiculously hung-up on the decision that was made on inverting Defense Grip Base's tip, which you find a reason to bring up pretty much monthly.
Did you know that those stationary-CWD combos actually have their origins in the Japanese HMS competitive scene — that is, while HMS was active in Japan and there were BBA-sanctioned events for it — and were first shared by Beholder, a Japanese Blader, on his website Beyblade Damashii? It has nothing to do with us, other than we never decided to arbitrarily ban it.
The undercurrent of hostility in so many of your posts is becoming grating.
Let me reiterate what I touched on above.
I am not, in this instance, complaining about your part use.
I am stating that a lot of it was never shown to be intended by Takara or Hasbro.
I am not saying that there is anything wrong with it.
I am not calling them cheaty.
I am merely quoting the words of the previous poster to explain to them why their desired rulings will never come to pass.
No, I don't like the WBO's ruling on Defence Grip Base but nowhere in there did I intend there to be "an undercurrent of hostility". It was a mere example of a ruling that fitted the message I was trying to convey and I was, infact, trying to do so in as unopinionated a manner as possible. I feel as though you are reading into this post implications of things that are not there and treating it negatively based primarily on past disagreements.
That said, I do appologize for coming across antagonistic here.
And no, I was not aware of that being the origin of HMS impared part motion. It is certainly interesting and lends an implied official go ahead to the ruling there. I still do not feel that having made a ruling against that part use would have been "arbitrary" per se but nor am I trying to make a case for a rules change on the matter.
Again, it was merely an example of an initially unintended usage that would be about as logical to ban as all non-Holy Dispell combos involving Screw Zeus.
I am not, in this instance, complaining about your part use.
I am stating that a lot of it was never shown to be intended by Takara or Hasbro.
I am not saying that there is anything wrong with it.
I am not calling them cheaty.
I am merely quoting the words of the previous poster to explain to them why their desired rulings will never come to pass.
No, I don't like the WBO's ruling on Defence Grip Base but nowhere in there did I intend there to be "an undercurrent of hostility". It was a mere example of a ruling that fitted the message I was trying to convey and I was, infact, trying to do so in as unopinionated a manner as possible. I feel as though you are reading into this post implications of things that are not there and treating it negatively based primarily on past disagreements.
That said, I do appologize for coming across antagonistic here.
And no, I was not aware of that being the origin of HMS impared part motion. It is certainly interesting and lends an implied official go ahead to the ruling there. I still do not feel that having made a ruling against that part use would have been "arbitrary" per se but nor am I trying to make a case for a rules change on the matter.
Again, it was merely an example of an initially unintended usage that would be about as logical to ban as all non-Holy Dispell combos involving Screw Zeus.
I'm sorry I misunderstood. I took your use of "cheaty" as derogatory but that wasn't the case.
But if I can speak generally on this topic, the fact that KOs are not worth 2 points in the WBO is also a rule we developed, which changes the flow of the game in an immeasurably huge way.
Rules at this level will always be somewhat inconsistent because they have to be able to alter to changing circumstances and discovery, in a very complex game that has honestly become far more competitive and well-researched than the designers could ever possibly prepare for, not to mention way beyond the early days of the WBO. To meet that expectation of competitive atmosphere, we sometimes make changes that we sincerely believe are for the benefit of maintaining a healthy metagame.
We will probably be the only organization that does and will ever consistently run organized Beyblade tournaments outside of East Asia, and we do what we can to keep serious players engaged while keeping things easy to understand and experience for beginners (so the community can both stay stable as older players leave, and grow even larger).
And compared to other communities like Smogon — which was a huge inspiration for the original Beywiki and WBO — we actually lean extremely towards being faithful to the original rules. There was a lot of hand-wringing and community discussion of the Odin ban and it still frustrates me that we had to do it, because I would love to not ban any parts from play.
I think (or hope, at least) generally members here accept that this is a thing we do in an honest attempt to provide a more satisfying and fun competitive environment, even if they don't always necessary agree with the individual rules we implement. And we are super open to changing things based on new evidence.
I saw you mention in another thread that banning bearing swaps in Magical Ape MS is a rule that doesn't make sense. This is a rule we also inherited from Takara-Tomy. If you think it's a bad rule, you should make a thread explaining why. I'm honestly super interested in hearing about it, so I hope you'll post it!
But if I can speak generally on this topic, the fact that KOs are not worth 2 points in the WBO is also a rule we developed, which changes the flow of the game in an immeasurably huge way.
Rules at this level will always be somewhat inconsistent because they have to be able to alter to changing circumstances and discovery, in a very complex game that has honestly become far more competitive and well-researched than the designers could ever possibly prepare for, not to mention way beyond the early days of the WBO. To meet that expectation of competitive atmosphere, we sometimes make changes that we sincerely believe are for the benefit of maintaining a healthy metagame.
We will probably be the only organization that does and will ever consistently run organized Beyblade tournaments outside of East Asia, and we do what we can to keep serious players engaged while keeping things easy to understand and experience for beginners (so the community can both stay stable as older players leave, and grow even larger).
And compared to other communities like Smogon — which was a huge inspiration for the original Beywiki and WBO — we actually lean extremely towards being faithful to the original rules. There was a lot of hand-wringing and community discussion of the Odin ban and it still frustrates me that we had to do it, because I would love to not ban any parts from play.
I think (or hope, at least) generally members here accept that this is a thing we do in an honest attempt to provide a more satisfying and fun competitive environment, even if they don't always necessary agree with the individual rules we implement. And we are super open to changing things based on new evidence.
I saw you mention in another thread that banning bearing swaps in Magical Ape MS is a rule that doesn't make sense. This is a rule we also inherited from Takara-Tomy. If you think it's a bad rule, you should make a thread explaining why. I'm honestly super interested in hearing about it, so I hope you'll post it!
I honestly have no real opinion on the Magical Ape MS ruling but do find it curiously inconsistent with plastic series bearing rulings and I can find no real reason for why it should be so other than your "inheritance" explanation.
From what I recall, some very rudimentary testing was done some time earlier this year but discontinued after sating the tester's curiousity. Results for the NSK gyro mode were somewhat sparce but seemed to suggest a good yet not overpowering improvement.
I cannot, however, garuntee that I remember this correctly and do not feel I have sufficient experience with the parts in question to provide insight, nor strong enough convictions about it to push for a rules change.
Mostly, I'm just interested.
Also, the very centre piece of Magical Ape MS looks suspiciously like a plastic spin gear core. Are pegs able to hold it into a plastics base?
From what I recall, some very rudimentary testing was done some time earlier this year but discontinued after sating the tester's curiousity. Results for the NSK gyro mode were somewhat sparce but seemed to suggest a good yet not overpowering improvement.
I cannot, however, garuntee that I remember this correctly and do not feel I have sufficient experience with the parts in question to provide insight, nor strong enough convictions about it to push for a rules change.
Mostly, I'm just interested.
Also, the very centre piece of Magical Ape MS looks suspiciously like a plastic spin gear core. Are pegs able to hold it into a plastics base?
(Jul. 20, 2016 1:45 PM)DrigerGatling Wrote:Quote:How is Screw Zeus on Spark Attack Ring BTW, I've always wondered about that?
That would be interesting to know. Perhaps we can find someone who has access to both parts.
I have access to both, but Sparkling attacker was like a one time thing, and I doubt that it will fit. It's not even considered a Sub Ar set up. The first was Galeon.
(Jul. 20, 2016 1:45 PM)DrigerGatling Wrote:Quote:This is not, however, something that the WBO will ever do as much of their competitive scene relies on "cheaty" combos.
I see your point, but I have to disagree with you on that. Beyblade is not some high-placed sport with rules to restrict like everything. Of course we need rules to avoid breaking the game itself, that is obvious. But there is one thing I really like about the Plastic generation especially:
And that's the massive variety of combinations you can come up with, whether it is interchanging ARs&SARs like Twin Horn & Dragon Saucer, putting different shafts into different casings like Double Bearing Core and Defense Grip Base 2 tip... I mean I don't think that Takara really intended to do such things, the molds of the parts are just similar so we can design these builds. Bladers have come up with many creative ideas within the last years to expand the varieties given. That what makes the Plastic gen special, you can't do these things with MFB & Burst.
And for me - I mean it's really my personal opinion - there are two question:
Can the parts considered be put together without using force?
Is the use of this combination breaking the game?
Look at the inversion of the Defense Grip Base tip. I know you don't like the idea, I can understand that in a way. But why do we do that? To give people the chance to build up an effective attack customization without spending their whole money on a Uriel 2. And neither Storm Grip Base nor Customize Grip Base have an equal tip design / move pattern.
I really don't care if Dragon Saucer & Screw Zeus gets banned, I mean I don't use that setup a lot. It's just that I want to say that I understand why some setups are still legal to use, even if these were never intended by Takara.
Aaaaaand to sum it up:
There is a difference of about 0,5mm. But I don't have to force it onto the spin gear, it fits pretty good.Spoiler (Click to View)
Pretty much agree on everything in this post. Nothing to add. (:
(Jul. 22, 2016 5:10 PM)Neo Wrote:(Jul. 20, 2016 1:45 PM)DrigerGatling Wrote:I have access to both, but Sparkling attacker was like a one time thing, and I doubt that it will fit. It's not even considered a Sub Ar set up. The first was Galeon.Quote:How is Screw Zeus on Spark Attack Ring BTW, I've always wondered about that?That would be interesting to know. Perhaps we can find someone who has access to both parts.
Would it be a huge hassle to check it just incase?
(Jul. 22, 2016 10:26 PM)Dracomageat Wrote:Well, considering that Sparkling Attacker was a one-off thing, and was made prior to Sub Attack Rings (it's not an AR and SAR Setup) and I KNOW the inner portion doesn't work with any others, I wouldnt be comfortable with that legalized at all. I'm currently out of town, so I have no way of checking, but by memory I know that Holy Dispell is far bigger than the inner Spark Ring part, and it probably won't work. I'll edit this post as soon as I know for sure.(Jul. 22, 2016 5:10 PM)Neo Wrote:(Jul. 20, 2016 1:45 PM)DrigerGatling Wrote: That would be interesting to know. Perhaps we can find someone who has access to both parts.I have access to both, but Sparkling attacker was like a one time thing, and I doubt that it will fit. It's not even considered a Sub Ar set up. The first was Galeon.
Would it be a huge hassle to check it just incase?
Didn't even work. So this whole interlude was irrelevant.
It also would make it right spin only and I only would ever use Screw Zeus in left spin, if I were going to at all. There are many much better options in right spin IMO, but not as many better options in left.
Forgive me for saying this, but for some reason th!nk was able to fit his Dragon Breaker in Screw Zeus. That's something I'm keen for data on, as he clearly didn't have issues with ARs improperly fitting in Screw Zeus. He wouldn't be advocating that AR+SAR combination if it didn't fit, and would have done something for that (since he is still in here when Neo wasn't around)
Dark Wing, Dragon Breaker, War Bear, Hasbro Twin Horn, Galman, and Great Dragon do not fit properly, but why the heck does anything but Dragon Breaker and Great Dragon have business on Screw Zeus in the first place, I don't know.
Urgh, him leaving really did a number on our plastics community. Hopefully someone had his contact so he can be notified, altough I'm not sure if he's even into beyblade anymore.
Dark Wing, Dragon Breaker, War Bear, Hasbro Twin Horn, Galman, and Great Dragon do not fit properly, but why the heck does anything but Dragon Breaker and Great Dragon have business on Screw Zeus in the first place, I don't know.
Urgh, him leaving really did a number on our plastics community. Hopefully someone had his contact so he can be notified, altough I'm not sure if he's even into beyblade anymore.